Questions for Muslims

[famdigy]

1. Where did Muhammed get the authority to say that he was “the Seal of the Prophets”? Is it from the Holy Bible? If so, how can that be, since he taught that the Bible was corrupt (even so, Muslims continue to draw proof of Mohamet’s legitimacy from this “corrupt” source - so how do you decide what has been corrupted and what has not?)? If it isn’t from the Holy Bible -where is it?

Please don’t take the following as an attack on Christian beliefs. There’s really no point to arguing who’s right and who’s wrong but to answer your question above, the bible to us is corrupted with respect to our principal beliefs. Mainly that God has no children, he does not beget a son, and Jesus is not divine. He was a mere mortal with great miracles that people misunderstood and attributed divinity to him as a result of those miracles.

 

[elwill]

You keep talking about “historical fact”, but fail to provide it! Where’s the proof? The Quran has been changed. For one, it’s not even written in chronological order, but by the length of the suras.

hi Booklover
i agree with you that quran not written in chronological order , but not by the length either . quran isn’t historical book , it was revealed through 23 years according to historical events , it was ordered then throguh it’s continous revealing with the authority of mohammed (pbuh) from God

you asking us about proof that quran never changed , well , we don’t know but one quran to think otherwise , we don’t have but one version .
if you have proofs that it’s changed then present it , if you have doubts that may be it was changed then you will be most wellcome to discuss with me the reasons of your doubts
is that fair ?

Do you really believe that the human mind is so perfect that it can memorize a whole book without error? Many of the original reciters of the Quran were killed in a battle and Uthman had copies of the Quran burned because of contradictions in the translations, which made many Muslims question the validity of their faith. So much for the perfection of the Quran!

Vickie

in our present day theire are millions of muslims (arabs and nonarabs) memorized quran

i never heared about that ( in bold statment) , can you provide your source please ?

thanx

 

[Tocra]

Well in that food multiplying miracle I mentioned, there were ‘180 men’ who ate from that food - that hardly counts as a ‘few’ Muslims.
Also, I’d like to see where these eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ miracles are recorded? From what I have been taught in my religious studies courses at college, all we have are the 4 Canonical Gospels (which are of sketchy reliability) as well as several apocrypha which is not considered canonical by the Church.
No eye-witness accounts from what I’ve come across, though I’d be glad if you could provide me with some

Secularism isn’t a religion; it’s the idea that the state and religion should be separate. You can be a devout believer of whatever faith you practice and still believe that your country should follow a secular model of government. I have a lot of Turkish friends who are devout Muslims but still don’t believe that Turkey should be an Islamic state.

But if you’re trying to say I was a ‘God hating atheist’ before I accepted Islam, the answer is no. I always considered myself to be an agnostic, though there were times I was angry with God.

Both, actually. When I first came to Saudi Arabia I wasn’t Muslim. I converted to Islam in college in America. Later came back and lived in Saudi Arabia (no, not for religious education).
So yeah, got to see Saudi Arabia from both Muslim and non-Muslim perspectives.

Greg, islamic hadiths were written by the followers of muhammad, if they count as religious truth, you’ll have a lot of problem answering why muhammad performed all those crimes (also written in these same hadiths).

Imagine the book of Harry Potter was written in the same time as muhammad and there is no indication on it that states it as ‘fictional’. Today, you’ll have tons of witches & wizards professing to be followers of Harry!!!

There is really just 1 way on which the ancient Jews determine a person to be a prophet.

• THE ABILITY TO PERFORM MIRACLES.

And according to the one and only reliable islamic text in the entire world - QURAN, Muhammad could NOT perform miracles.

• That aside, what muhammad taught, totally contradicted with what God had taught the Jews. God hated re-marriages, hated divorces, says His only name is Yahweh, hates the philistines (ancestors of the arab muslims), hates worshippers of the moon, Jesus says there are no more prophets after John the Baptist, John says the Anti-Christ rejects the deity of Jesus etc etc etc etc etc…All these point to only 1 thing. The Bible from Start to End unreservedly rejects Muhammad as prophet and claims him to be a Liar and of the Anti-Christ.

.

 

[elwill]

As for the Qur’an, translated versions are not considered the Qur’an. Therefore they do not have that specific problem. However, as has already been stated. The Qur’an as it exists today is not the same Qur’an the was revealed to Muhammed. There were different versions of it, and we cannot say with any accuracy that the standardized Qur’an of today is exactly as it was revealed to Muhammed.

but you can’t say otherwise either

for me i have my reasons (logical reasons ) to say with confidence that the standarized quran of today is same was revealed to mohammed (pbuh) , what’s yours ?

 

[BryanM27]

hi Booklover
i agree with you that quran not written in chronological order , but not by the length either . quran isn’t historical book , it was revealed through 23 years according to historical events , it was ordered then throguh it’s continous revealing with the authority of mohammed (pbuh) from God

But wasn’t it revealed in a different order than it is currently ordered?

I’d have to find my notes from my Islam class, but wasn’t the first revelation a verse somewhere in the middle of sura 5?

 

[elwill]

But wasn’t it revealed in a different order than it is currently ordered?

I’d have to find my notes from my Islam class, but wasn’t the first revelation a verse somewhere in the middle of sura 5?

yes that’s correct , it wasn’t revealed in the same order , but this isn’t the order of his followers either , the order of surahs organized in the authority of mohammed(pbuh) either

 

[BryanM27]

but you can’t say otherwise either

for me i have my reasons (logical reasons ) to say with confidence that the standarized quran of today is same was revealed to mohammed (pbuh) , what’s yours ?

To first part, that’s like saying God must exist because you can’t prove He doesn’t.

As to my reasons for believing the Bible as it exists today. I also have my logical reasons that allow me to say with confidence that the Bible we have today is the same in substance and meaning as it was in the 4th century AD.

 

[elwill]

To first part, that’s like saying God must exist because you can’t prove He doesn’t.

i just say that i will keep my beliefs in unchanged quran if you have nothing to convince me with the otherwise

and i invited you to even discuss your doubts and discuss the probablity of corruped quran’s issue if you havn’t clear proofs that it was changed

As to my reasons for believing the Bible as it exists today. I also have my logical reasons that allow me to say with confidence that the Bible we have today is the same in substance and meaning as it was in the 4th century AD.

yes , i have no problem with that , the further you can proof is untill 4th century AD , enough period for corruption of the original teaching which we claim ,
beside i read before that in this era , the humdreds of canons and sects and many different beliefs about jesus were exist , isn’t that right

 

[Ali_Khan]

Tocra,

It seems like you’re one of those deluded right wing ultraconservative Southern Baptists who believe that Islam is the work of the devil and whatnot.
Of course, I don’t blame you - I just blame the failure of the educational system in the US. You’re a prime example of how it’s gone wrong

Greg, islamic hadiths were written by the followers of muhammad, if they count as religious truth, you’ll have a lot of problem answering why muhammad performed all those crimes (also written in these same hadiths).

Imagine the book of Harry Potter was written in the same time as muhammad and there is no indication on it that states it as ‘fictional’. Today, you’ll have tons of witches & wizards professing to be followers of Harry!!!

There is really just 1 way on which the ancient Jews determine a person to be a prophet.

• THE ABILITY TO PERFORM MIRACLES.

And according to the one and only reliable islamic text in the entire world - QURAN, Muhammad could NOT perform miracles.

The Hadiths which state that Muhammad performed miracles are actually more reliable than the canonical gospels you use today. Unlike the gospels, they have a clear chain of transmission back to Muhammad and can be used as eyewitness accounts.
The gospels largely come from an unknown source document, called the ‘Q source’ by academic researchers.

what muhammad taught, totally contradicted with what God had taught the Jews.

Let’s see what they taught:

Jews → One God, not incarnated
Muhammad → One God, not incarnated
Paul → Three Gods making up One God, Incarnated

Who contradicts the Jews here? Paul, the founder of the Christian faith.
Muslims worship the same God the Jews worship: One, not three, and who is not and does not incarnate himself as a man.

God hated re-marriages, hated divorces

So why is it that the divorce rate in Christian countries is several times higher than that of Muslim countries?

His only name is Yahweh

So why do you call Him God? Or Jesus?
You know that Jesus spoke Aramaic, right? In Aramaic, the word for God is Alah (cognate to Allah). Jesus didn’t say Yahweh, he said Alah.

The Bible from Start to End unreservedly rejects Muhammad as prophet and claims him to be a Liar and of the Anti-Christ.

How is this guy not banned? Seriously? If I were to suggest the Pope was the Anti-Christ I would be banned. How does he get away with this, then?
Double standards.

 

[BryanM27]

i just say that i will keep my beliefs in unchanged quran if you have nothing to convince me with the otherwise

and i invited you to even discuss your doubts and discuss the probablity of corruped quran’s issue if you havn’t clear proofs that it was changed

yes , i have no problem with that , the further you can proof is untill 4th century AD , enough period for corruption of the original teaching which we claim ,
beside i read before that in this era , the humdreds of canons and sects and many different beliefs about jesus were exist , isn’t that right

I know exactly what you are saying elwill, and the discussion door is always open between us.

I agree that given the way bibles were publised prior to the invention of the printing press it is entirely possible that unintention human errors were introduced (monks get tired just like anybody else).

Yes there were sects that had various different gospel accounts. That was why the Church held the ecumenical councils and established the canon that we have today. I don’t know all the reasons and history behind it, but that’s the general reasons.

 

[Tocra]

Tocra,

It seems like you’re one of those deluded right wing ultraconservative Southern Baptists who believe that Islam is the work of the devil and whatnot.
Of course, I don’t blame you - I just blame the failure of the educational system in the US. You’re a prime example of how it’s gone wrong

I’m not about to engage you in the arena for character assassination, although I know its a common tactic for those who are not able to back up whatever they may claim.

The Hadiths which state that Muhammad performed miracles are actually more reliable than the canonical gospels you use today. Unlike the gospels, they have a clear chain of transmission back to Muhammad and can be used as eyewitness accounts.
The gospels largely come from an unknown source document, called the ‘Q source’ by academic researchers.

And more reliable than even your quran perhaps. Muhammad was long dead by the time these hadiths were written, I do not know how this chain can even exist.

Let’s see what they taught:

Jews → One God, not incarnated
Muhammad → One God, not incarnated
Paul → Three Gods making up One God, Incarnated

Who contradicts the Jews here? Paul, the founder of the Christian faith.
Muslims worship the same God the Jews worship: One, not three, and who is not and does not incarnate himself as a man.

There are not 3…Only 1. The problem lies with your inability to comprehend the Spirit. And Paul is not the founder of the christian faith, neither did he start any trinitarian teachings. God is a SPIRIT, not a human. Jesus is God not because of His flesh, but because of the Spirit of God in Him. The flesh perishes, the spirit does not.

So why is it that the divorce rate in Christian countries is several times higher than that of Muslim countries?

Non-compliance to teachings does not EQUAL to discipleship. If that is the case, I could also say that those who do not kill kafirs like what the quran openly teaches are not muslims???

So why do you call Him God? Or Jesus?
You know that Jesus spoke Aramaic, right? In Aramaic, the word for God is Alah (cognate to Allah). Jesus didn’t say Yahweh, he said Alah.

The Aramaic for God is Eloi. Again you’re wrong

How is this guy not banned? Seriously? If I were to suggest the Pope was the Anti-Christ I would be banned. How does he get away with this, then?
Double standards.

You want me to be banned for speaking the truth? Like it or not, the fact remains…The Bible declares muhammad as a follower of the Anti-Christ.

1 John 2:22 Who is the Liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Messiah. **Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). **

Point: Those who rejects the DEITY of Jesus are followers of the Anti-Christ.

Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist.
**
Point: There are no more prophets after John the Baptist. John was already the last.**

 

[Ali_Khan]

And more reliable than even your quran perhaps. Muhammad was long dead by the time these hadiths were written, I do not know how this chain can even exist.

And Jesus was long gone by the time the gospels were written.

The chain exists because its a chain of narrators. For example, the Prophet did or said something - one of his companions saw it and recorded it, this companion passed it on to his son, this son passed it on to his wife, this wife passed it on to her son, who then gave the record to Bukhari for compilation in the canonical Hadith book. That’s just ONE chain of narration, and we know the names, lifestory, profession, birth, death, race, tribe, etc. of EVERY single person on that chain.
And we have MULTIPLE chains like these confirming that one Hadith, just like any other Hadith.
The fact that there are multiple chains of people means that the Hadith was not corrupted as it was passed down.

So yeah, by any standard of judgment, this would make a Sahih Hadith infinitely more historically reliable than the Gospels, who were copied from some unknown source document.

There are not 3…Only 1. The problem lies with your inability to comprehend the Spirit. And Paul is not the founder of the christian faith, neither did he start any trinitarian teachings. God is a SPIRIT, not a human. Jesus is God not because of His flesh, but because of the Spirit of God in Him. The flesh perishes, the spirit does not.

No, the problem lies with the fact that Christianity said something which was RADICALLY DIFFERENT than original Jewish monotheistic beliefs.
Stop changing the subject.

The Aramaic for God is Eloi. Again you’re wrong

Have you ever even been to school? Seriously? Have you?

Here, type in ‘God’ in this Aramaic dictionary and see what you get:

peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi

The pronunciation of the word is ‘AaLaH’ - according to the dictionary.

You want me to be banned for speaking the truth? Like it or not, the fact remains…The Bible declares muhammad as a follower of the Anti-Christ.

Well then, I’m sorry but the Quran declares Christians as polytheists and undermining true Jewish monotheism.
But you don’t see me writing POLYTHEIST with giant bold font everywhere on these forums.

 

[Tocra]

And Jesus was long gone by the time the gospels were written.

The chain exists because its a chain of narrators. For example, the Prophet did or said something - one of his companions saw it and recorded it, this companion passed it on to his son, this son passed it on to his wife, this wife passed it on to her son, who then gave the record to Bukhari for compilation in the canonical Hadith book. That’s just ONE chain of narration, and we know the names, lifestory, profession, birth, death, race, tribe, etc. of EVERY single person on that chain.
And we have MULTIPLE chains like these confirming that one Hadith, just like any other Hadith.
The fact that there are multiple chains of people means that the Hadith was not corrupted as it was passed down.

There’s also a chain of people believing today that Elvis is still alive. Do you know that

1 - The followers of muhammad were almost ALL illiterate???
2 - There was no formalised written arabic during muhammad’s time???

So, without the knowledge & the platform, how can the texts even exist? Its extremely obvious that its nothing but a cookbook.

So yeah, by any standard of judgment, this would make a Sahih Hadith infinitely more historically reliable than the Gospels, who were copied from some unknown source document.

Your claim against mine, a no-pointer.

No, the problem lies with the fact that Christianity said something which was RADICALLY DIFFERENT than original Jewish monotheistic beliefs.
Stop changing the subject.

Radically different? No. All we are saying is God is God, Jesus is that same God, The Holy Spirit is that same God. God is Spirit.

Have you ever even been to school? Seriously? Have you?

Here, type in ‘God’ in this Aramaic dictionary and see what you get:

peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi

The pronunciation of the word is ‘AaLaH’ - according to the dictionary.

That link doesn’t even work!

What we believe is the Bible, and the Bible quoted Aramaic - “Eloi, Eloi Lama Shabachtani”.

I’m not about to accept a dubious link that does not even work that attempts to tell me my Bible is wrong.

Well then, I’m sorry but the Quran declares Christians as polytheists and undermining true Jewish monotheism.
But you don’t see me writing POLYTHEIST with giant bold font everywhere on these forums.

I don’t, because I know you are desperate to claim affiliation to my religion. Why? Cos otherwise, your allah would have no history for it.

 

[Ali_Khan]

There’s also a chain of people believing today that Elvis is still alive. Do you know that

1 - The followers of muhammad were almost ALL illiterate???
2 - There was no formalised written arabic during muhammad’s time???

So, without the knowledge & the platform, how can the texts even exist? Its extremely obvious that its nothing but a cookbook.

A good portion of his followers WERE literate. He had a bunch of scribes who wrote down what he said, and the first four Caliphs - who were all close disciples of Muhammad and related to him by either blood or marriage - DID know how to read or write and wrote letters themselves. Some of his followers were even literate in Hebrew and Aramaic.

And not all of the Hadith were transmitted through written records, a lot were done orally.

And with Elvis you don’t have MULTIPLE chains of transmissions where the lifestory of everyone on the chains is recorded and the saying is the SAME, VERBATIM.

So to say it is a ‘cookbook’ shows that you are either
(a) an Islamophobe
or (b) completely uneducated

Radically different? No. All we are saying is God is God, Jesus is that same God, The Holy Spirit is that same God. God is Spirit.

Have you ever even been to school? Seriously? Have you?

Yes I have been to school, and at school they taught me in first grade Math that whoever believes that 1+1+1=1 is deranged and needs psychological assistance.

**That link doesn’t even work!

What we believe is the Bible, and the Bible quoted Aramaic - “Eloi, Eloi Lama Shabachtani”.

I’m not about to accept a dubious link that does not even work that attempts to tell me my Bible is wrong.**

Use this link.

atour.com/cgi-bin/dictionary.cgi?string=God&B1=Search&Search_Field=Meaning&VTI-GROUP=0

It also says the same thing. Aramaic for God takes many forms, but the root word is Alah. Pronounced AaLaH.

I don’t, because I know you are desperate to claim affiliation to my religion. Why? Cos otherwise, your allah would have no history for it.

‘Your religion’, I am sorry to say, is nothing more than a Jewish heresy. It is a deviation of Jewish monotheism, or belief in One God.
You can argue that trinity is monotheistic all you like, but the fact remains:
1+1+1 =/= 1
Of course, you’ve never been to school so I wouldn’t expect you to know this.
All the historical stories we need are in the Quran anyway, and they are more or less the same thing in the OT.
We need no affiliation to the NT, which is a compilation of mysterious documents that were written by unknown authors copying material from an unknown earlier document and arbitrarily chosen as the scripture for a religion.

 

[scipio337]

This thread caught my eye

…Except Joseph Smith or Bahaullah did not perform miracles. Nor did they create a successful religion that became a massive world faith.

That is your opinion, but a Ba’hai or LDS would probably disagree with you.
Ali Khan:

The Jewish rabbis claimed the early Christians were heretics and blaspheming against God. Given the choice between you and the early contemporaries of these people, I will stick with the Jewish rabbis

Yet the primarily, early Christians were Jewish converts.

Do you also stick to the rabbinical commentary regarding Muhammed?
Ali Khan:

Read history for a change. Muhammad did not engage in anything as vile as the Inquisition, which did take place in Europe even after the 15th century. Nor did he exterminate an entire primitve native population (like the European colonizers of the New World).

Maybe you missed a little history, but if you didn’t notice, there was a 600 year or so military occupation of Spain, by Muslims, prior to the Inquisition. Christians were persecuted for their beliefs.

"Once the Muslims conquered Iberia, they governed it in accordance with Islamic shariah law. Christians and Jews were treated as dhimmis or “protected” persons subject to a poll tax allowing them to live in peace and security under the Islamic state. Under shariah, blasphemy against Islam, whether by Muslims or dhimmis, and apostasy from Islam are all grounds for the death penalty.

Though four Christian basilicas and numerous Christian monasteries mentioned in Eulogius’ martyrology remained open, the Christian population was gradually becoming converted to Islam in the process driven by taxation, legal discrimination and other indignities imposed on the Christians, and the marriage laws assuring Muslim offspring from mixed marriages "

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_cordoba

The Inquisition was a REaction to hundreds of years of persecution. I don’t justify oppressing people as a defense for being oppressed, but you could at least view it in SOME historical context.
Ali Khan:

And Muhammad showed immense mercy during his reign as a king. He forgave the man who murdered his pregnant daughter. He forgave the woman he mutilated and defiled his beloved uncle’s corpse. He forgave an entire city which had conspired to kill him and tortured him and his followers.
Also, for all we know, Christ would have done the same thing as Muhammad had he gotten power - Muhammad was basically another gentle Christ when he had no power. You cannot assume that Christ would have remained the same and then bash Muhammad on that basis.

So what about the murders, executions, etc?

Your “for all we know” argument is specious, Christ preached forgiving and loving your enemies, not fighting them.

 

[Booklover]

There was only one man in the history of humankind who was divinely authorized to edit the Qur’an… and that man was the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

It has been established from authentic traditions that the angel Gabriel, who conveyed the revelations of God to the Prophet, himself arranged these verses. Each year during the month of Ramadan, Gabriel would come to the Prophet and recite before him all the Qur’anic verses revealed up till that time in the order in which they exist today, after which the Prophet would repeat the verses in exactly the same order. This dual process has been termed al-Irza, ‘mutual presentation,’ in the books of hadith.

It has also been established that in the last year of the Prophet’s life, when the revelations had been completed, Gabriel came to the Prophet and recited the entire Qur’an in the existing order twice, and similarly the Prophet also recited to Gabriel the entire Qur’an twice. This final presentation is called al-Arz al-Akhirah in the books of hadith.

When by the help of Gabriel, the Qur’an was fully and systematically arranged, the Prophet recited it to his companions on different occasions in the order with which we are familiar today. The Qur’an was thus preserved in its pristine form in the memories of tens of thousands of the companions during the Prophet’s lifetime.

In short, the complete Qur’an that we have today was authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself shortly before he died and it has remained 100% pure and unedited ever since.

So Allah wanted the Quran to be compiled by the length of the suras and not in chronological order! That’s why so many of the verses have no proper ending and make no sense. That doesn’t sound like it had any importance whatever and yet this is the book that you claim is to be followed by all mankind? Do you find that logical?

Vickie

 

[Ali_Khan]

That is your opinion, but a Ba’hai or LDS would probably disagree with you.

Just as Jesus performing miracles is your opinion.
In fact, it is not even substantiated by any eyewitness records, unlike the numerous records we have of Muhammad.

Maybe you missed a little history, but if you didn’t notice, there was a 600 year or so military occupation of Spain, by Muslims, prior to the Inquisition. Christians were persecuted for their beliefs.

"Once the Muslims conquered Iberia, they governed it in accordance with Islamic shariah law. Christians and Jews were treated as dhimmis or “protected” persons subject to a poll tax allowing them to live in peace and security under the Islamic state. Under shariah, blasphemy against Islam, whether by Muslims or dhimmis, and apostasy from Islam are all grounds for the death penalty.

Though four Christian basilicas and numerous Christian monasteries mentioned in Eulogius’ martyrology remained open, the Christian population was gradually becoming converted to Islam in the process driven by taxation, legal discrimination and other indignities imposed on the Christians, and the marriage laws assuring Muslim offspring from mixed marriages "

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_cordoba

Notice how all the 48 were killed during the reign of two men over a short period of 9 years. Two men’s reign does not represent the entire period of Muslim Spain.

The jizya taxation was justified as Christians were exempt from the Zakat tax (only for Muslims) as well as compulsory military service.

Compared to the rest of Catholic Europe, and later Catholic Spain - the Muslim Spain was a tolerant paradise.

The Inquisition was a REaction to hundreds of years of persecution. I don’t justify oppressing people as a defense for being oppressed, but you could at least view it in SOME historical context.

You are honestly a twisted person if you can even think about justifying something like the Inquisition.
Torturing innocents and burning them alive in public can never be justified, ever.

Hundreds of years of persecution? Relative to Catholic Europe, Muslim Spain was incredibly tolerant to non-believers, especially Jews.
View it in historical context? All the Muslim rulers asked from Christians was a poll tax. In return they were free to practice their religion, were exempt from conscription (unlike Muslims), and had legal rights.
The Christians repay this kindness by rounding up Jews and Muslims, torturing them in unimaginably horrific ways, and then burning them alive.
Yeah, real nice.

So what about the murders, executions, etc?

Any different from an OT prophet?

Muhammad was a very forgiving man, but when he executed someone, he executed them rightly. You can’t expect a rapist or murderer to go unpunished. Muhammad was king and chief judge - if he forgives EVERYONE, then what incentive is there for people, especially pagans who were not bound by Islamic morality, to not engage in wanton criminal behavior?

 

[koshakoji]

Read history for a change. Muhammad did not engage in anything as vile as the Inquisition, which did take place in Europe even after the 15th century. Nor did he exterminate an entire primitve native population (like the European colonizers of the New World).

Love it how Muslims always bring up the inquisition when they run out of arguments. The problem is that Christians have never claimed to be perfect. Christ was perfect and we should strive to be more like Him, but this is impossible and we do make mistakes.

And Muhammad showed immense mercy during his reign as a king. He forgave the man who murdered his pregnant daughter. He forgave the woman he mutilated and defiled his beloved uncle’s corpse. He forgave an entire city which had conspired to kill him and tortured him and his followers.

And he also slaughtered hundreds of Jews, raped and killed women, raided caravans, etc…

Also, for all we know, Christ would have done the same thing as Muhammad had he gotten power - Muhammad was basically another gentle Christ when he had no power. You cannot assume that Christ would have remained the same and then bash Muhammad on that basis.

No, He wouldn’t have. If you knew anything about Christianity and the NT, you would know that the reason why the Pharisees did not like Him was because He refused to take up a sword and fight the Roman occupants. Jesus’ message was about forgiveness, love, and salvation. Muhammed’s message was about power, wealth, and women.

Muhammad himself stated that ‘black and white are equal’ in his Last Sermon. This was not something ‘absorbed’ from other cultures, who were pretty racist at that time.
And please read about how slavery works in Islam before speaking about it. It is nothing like the type of slavery that was practiced in the West, especially America.
The OT allows slavery and Jesus never said anything about banning slavery, hence slavery is allowed by Christianity too - it’s just that most Christians choose not to follow it.

Black and white might be equal according to Muhammad (although when looking at the racism in KSA that doesn’t seem quite true), but men and women certainly aren’t. In Islam the woman is nothing more than a slave.
And as for Jesus and slavery: like I said above, He did not want a bloody uprising. If you follow His message though you can clearly see that slavery is wrong.

Yes I have been to school, and at school they taught me in first grade Math that whoever believes that 1+1+1=1 is deranged and needs psychological assistance.

I understand how you feel. In spite of people here trying to explain the Holy Trinity to you, you are incapable of understanding the concept. I never really understood it either until I attended a Catholic Mass. During Mass, you will feel the Holy Spirit working in you and everything will become perfectly clear. Do me a favor and just try to attend Mass once with an open mind.You won’t regret it.

 

[Ali_Khan]

So Allah wanted the Quran to be compiled by the length of the suras and not in chronological order! That’s why so many of the verses have no proper ending and make no sense. That doesn’t sound like it had any importance whatever and yet this is the book that you claim is to be followed by all mankind? Do you find that logical?

What does the fact that Allah chose to arrange the Quran in chronological order to Muhammad have anything to do with the Quran being inherently not from God?
Did Allah ever state in the Old Testament that everything He reveals will be in perfect chronological order?

I’m guessing you’ve only read the entire Quran only once. Don’t be confused if it seems to you that parts of the Quran make no sense because of how it’s ‘arranged’. Remember, the Quran is in the form of poetry. Have you ever made sense of a Shakespeare poem by quickly going through it once? Of course not - poetry requires that the reader meditate on its meaning. Then it becomes clear.

To just rush out and say that ‘the Quran doesnt make sense’ is just plain wrong. That’s like me quickly flipping through Hamlet, not getting it, and rushing out to say that the play is flawed and makes no sense.

 

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Just as Jesus performing miracles is your opinion.
In fact, it is not even substantiated by any eyewitness records, unlike the numerous records we have of Muhammad.

I dunno, being raised from the dead would probably qualify. If you don’t believe in the authenticity of the New Testament, I could see your point, but to claim there are no “eyewitness” accounts therein, is false.
Ali Khan:

Notice how all the 48 were killed during one man’s reign. One man’s reign does not represent the entire period of Muslim Spain.

The jizya taxation was justified as Christians were exempt from the Zakat tax (only for Muslims) as well as compulsory military service.

Compared to the rest of Catholic Europe, and later Catholic Spain - the Muslim Spain was a tolerant paradise.

So treating non-Muslims different is “justified”??? That’s pretty twisted.

You are honestly a twisted person if you can even think about justifying something like the Inquisition.
Torturing innocents and burning them alive in public can never be justified, ever.

Hence, my “I don’t justify oppressing people”

Did you miss that part? Are you denying that the Muslim rule of Southern Spain had nothing to do with the Inquisition?

Hundreds of years of persecution? Relative to Catholic Europe, Muslim Spain was incredibly tolerant to non-believers, especially Jews.
View it in historical context? All the Muslim rulers asked from Christians was a poll tax. In return they were free to practice their religion, were exempt from conscription (unlike Muslims), and had legal rights.
The Christians repay this kindness by rounding up Jews and Muslims, torturing them in unimaginably horrific ways, and then burning them alive.
Yeah, real nice.

See above. Episodic, not DOCTRINAL. See the Pact of Umar.

Any different from an OT prophet?

Muhammad was a very forgiving man, but when he executed someone, he executed them rightly. You can’t expect a rapist or murderer to go unpunished. Muhammad was king and chief judge - if he forgives EVERYONE, then what incentive is there for people, especially pagans who were not bound by Islamic morality, to engage in wanton criminal behavior?

The Old Coveneant was a Covenant of the LAW, written in Stone. The New Covenant was a covenant of the SPIRIT, written in Christ’s blood. I can’t justify murdering people for the crime of “insulting” a faith, under any circumstances,

can you?