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Nick_Jones
Guest
I’m still not sure I understand. Who was God’s intermediary when Adam and Eve were given their instruction directly by God, not to eat the fruit?
- Status
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look3467
Guest
Scripture ref: Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Because of the grace and not law, the priesthood had to change: Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For: the priesthood of man was under the law, the Levitical priesthood as ordained, but because of grace, Jesus has changed the priesthood of mankind to that of God. One not made with human hands but of God.
This must needed change in order that the law might be fulfilled by God Himself.
The priesthood of the Catholic Church is not needed under grace, for the salvation of mankind. For Christ is our salvation.
The understanding of “binding and loosing”, is saying that we, you and I are supported by God in our works.
Meaning whatever we bind on earth, God will support it in heaven.
Same as saying, “mountain be removed into the sea”, the only way that could happen is if God would do the work for us.
Jesus was one on earth and could deal only on one on one, or with a small crowd. But in the spirit, Christ can deal with every individual in the world, bar none.
Therefore we are taught by Jesus in spirit.
Spirit. Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:How do we know?
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Directly: Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Circumcision is of the heart and in by which we worship God in the spirit, thereby having no confidence in the flesh. Meaning the flesh profited nothing, let alone some human dictating to us what we should believe.
We are the house that Jesus built, the habitation of God through the spirit.
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
What? God is not able to save sinners? Only to the ones deemed themselves righteous enough to approach God?
If that is how you see it, then forget Jesus eating and drinking with sinners, forgiving the adulterous women.
Have we forgotten who He came to save?
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
If any of us are without sin, so as to have the right to approach the throne, let us then cast the first stone.
I place my faith in Jesus as my high priest, savior of my soul and my God.
The Catholic Church was a vessel used by God to promote His message, but like it is with the flesh, mankind thought it to slay those who disagreed with it.
Doing exactly what Saul was doing prior to Jesus circumcising his heart and renaming him Paul.
But not all was lost, for in scattering the body of Christ grew to what it is today. Different parts to the body as in fingers, hands, feet etc. All different: yet part of the body which the head of it is Christ.
Hence: love on another as God has loved us?
I choose to be independent and a lover of Christ, while you choose to be a good Catholic.
I condemn you not for how you choose to worship the same Jesus as I do, nor do I condemn you not even if you didn’t believe in God.
I stand on a firm foundation where the winds and the waves of misunderstandings affect me not, for Jesus is my foundation and I need no other.
You need the church to stand; I only need Jesus to stand.
That is the difference.
Psa 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.Jesus is the rock of my salvation in whom I trust.
Peace>>>AJ
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Ziggamafu
Guest
Thank God for the blessing we have in mind-numbingly frustrating Protestants, who we must attempt to love into full communion with the Church, even though they refuse to answer the questions that prove sola scriptura to be fallacious. What an opportunity to increase our patience! What an opportunity to embrace a bit of the cross!
But hey, why not give it another shot?
You can argue all you want over whose interpretation is the right interpretation; you may twist Christ’s words, “My flesh is real meat, this is my body, etc.” or the words of St. James, “You are justified by works and not by faith alone” or so many other passages as much as you want, for instance. But the question remains, by what authority to arbitrate between such interpretations?
Refusing to acknowledge the infallible authority of Sacred Tradition and the dogmas of the Church means believing that every doctrine must be biblical and that the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith; therefore, if we do not find it in the Bible, we should either reject it or dismiss it as unnecessary. Yet the canon of Scripture cannot be discerned from the Bible alone and (most importantly) not a single passage of Scripture claims that God’s written Word is the only infallible authority for a Christian.
Therefore, according to the rules of sola scriptura itself, sola scriptura should be rejected or dismissed. This is simple, irrefutable logic. It is plain in your face. Stop and think over why you wish to avoid it as “clever deception”.
But hey, why not give it another shot?
You can argue all you want over whose interpretation is the right interpretation; you may twist Christ’s words, “My flesh is real meat, this is my body, etc.” or the words of St. James, “You are justified by works and not by faith alone” or so many other passages as much as you want, for instance. But the question remains, by what authority to arbitrate between such interpretations?
Refusing to acknowledge the infallible authority of Sacred Tradition and the dogmas of the Church means believing that every doctrine must be biblical and that the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith; therefore, if we do not find it in the Bible, we should either reject it or dismiss it as unnecessary. Yet the canon of Scripture cannot be discerned from the Bible alone and (most importantly) not a single passage of Scripture claims that God’s written Word is the only infallible authority for a Christian.
Therefore, according to the rules of sola scriptura itself, sola scriptura should be rejected or dismissed. This is simple, irrefutable logic. It is plain in your face. Stop and think over why you wish to avoid it as “clever deception”.
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look3467
Guest
Ziggamafu,
Ahhhhhhhh…the frustration. Why can’t everybody believe the same thing and walla!, everybody is happy.
Not so, my dear friend. If you understood what it is to be in the flesh in the first place, you would have and understanding why Jesus came.
The bible is the word of God is it not? Did not the church travail to compile it together as one book? Without it, tradition is all there was.
I mean it’s like and Indian saying to the grandson, that’s the way we always did it. (tradition) And the grandson says: but gram-pa, we have matches now to start the fire with.
New revelations, new understandings.
Traditions are for those who need direction, but for the grandson types, knowledge is freedom.
In this case, Christ sets us free, as soon as you can come to understand it, otherwise, it remains the same.
In the love of Christ>>>AJ
Ahhhhhhhh…the frustration. Why can’t everybody believe the same thing and walla!, everybody is happy.
Not so, my dear friend. If you understood what it is to be in the flesh in the first place, you would have and understanding why Jesus came.
The bible is the word of God is it not? Did not the church travail to compile it together as one book? Without it, tradition is all there was.
I mean it’s like and Indian saying to the grandson, that’s the way we always did it. (tradition) And the grandson says: but gram-pa, we have matches now to start the fire with.
New revelations, new understandings.
Traditions are for those who need direction, but for the grandson types, knowledge is freedom.
In this case, Christ sets us free, as soon as you can come to understand it, otherwise, it remains the same.
Well then, bare your cross well, for it is a worthy cause.
In the love of Christ>>>AJ
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Nick_Jones
Guest
If canon were dogma you might have a valid point. But dogma can come from the fallible imaginations of men while the scriptural canon is only from God.
So, in your attempt to prove that SS is untenable or self refuting you are conflating two very different things; dogma and the canon of Scripture. The reason I trust that the canon is trustworthy is because God keeps His promises.
In addition, you have assumed that your “church” MUST be the one that Jesus established. Your reasoning is fallible, my friend. You might be wrong in assuming that you have infallible truth by way of your religious leaders. The bible tells us that all of us are sinners. Beware of men who claim to teach infallibly.
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Nick_Jones
Guest
With all due respect, the second part of this is equally bad reasoning:
“not a single passage of Scripture claims that God’s written Word is the only infallible authority for a Christian.”
If I were a Mormon I could just as easily say:
“not a single passage of Scripture claims that Rome’s Sacred Tradition and Rome’s Magisterium, and Rome’s sacred Scripture are the only infallible authorities for a Christian.” See, I just proved that the Mormon Church is the true church!"
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Ziggamafu
Guest
Not so. I trace my authority from Christ to the Church to the Church’s discernment of Christ’s revelations in Scripture and Tradition.
You trace your authority from Christ to Christ’s revelations in Scripture.
Notice the missing link? Christ precedes the Church, the Church precedes Tradition, Tradition precedes Scripture. You cannot have a later one without its source / predecessor and you cannot claim a later one to be authoritative without its source / predecessor having the same authority.
My claim is not self-defeating. Sola scriptura is. I do not claim to judge my doctrinal correctness by the Bible alone, but by dogma and Tradition as well. And my beliefs are certainly outlined clearly in dogma; of course I can make good arguments from Tradition and Scripture as well, but the point is that my claims do not force me to “show it in Scripture”. Yours do. And since you CANNOT show sola scriptura in Scripture, your claims are self-defeating from square one.
You trace your authority from Christ to Christ’s revelations in Scripture.
Notice the missing link? Christ precedes the Church, the Church precedes Tradition, Tradition precedes Scripture. You cannot have a later one without its source / predecessor and you cannot claim a later one to be authoritative without its source / predecessor having the same authority.
My claim is not self-defeating. Sola scriptura is. I do not claim to judge my doctrinal correctness by the Bible alone, but by dogma and Tradition as well. And my beliefs are certainly outlined clearly in dogma; of course I can make good arguments from Tradition and Scripture as well, but the point is that my claims do not force me to “show it in Scripture”. Yours do. And since you CANNOT show sola scriptura in Scripture, your claims are self-defeating from square one.
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Teflon93
Guest
Well, you win the award for most unsupported claims tortured out of Scripture!
Wonder why the apostles had so much debate over whether circumcision was a requirement of Christianity if these passages of Christ’s non-Scriptural teaching to them (note in Acts the reference to the many other things the risen Christ told them)?
You are clearly very foggy on Christ’s judgment of the Sanhedrin, which is quite different than your claim that Christ abolished priesthood altogether.
Moreover, why did Christ need the Twelve at all, if everyone now had a personal relationship with him?
Which is why Christ founded a Church—wait, WHY did Christ found a Church if it was unnecessary?
Well, you completely dodged the question. Was binding and loosing authority given to everybody in all the world or simply to the apostles? What is the significance of the Twelve?
And yet he didn’t. Why didn’t the risen Christ appear to everyone in the world? Why only to those who knew him and a few addtional people such as Saul? If your theory were correct, why isn’t it found in Scripture?
You’re very far afraid from Scripture now, in fact—how do you know this to be true?
Bingo! Wait, with all those disconnected passages strung together I thought we were playing Bible Bingo for a moment.
You seem to be a bit unclear as to whom Paul was referring in his letters. The audience does matter, you know, and the audience happened to be churches. Not humanity in its teeming hordes, but Catholics.
That’s a good question—whom did Christ come to save? We get multiple answers from Protestants. Some say everyone. Some say just a select few; the rest eternally damned. We Catholics hold with the former, although note that some will not be saved because they choose not to be and reject Christ’s Church.
Christ eating and drinking with sinners is an underpinning of the Mass—so why do you claim it is unnecessary?
We will be without sin when we approach the throne, or we will not approach it. Why do you think God repeatedly demanded purification before earthly men were allowed in His presence? Why do you think the Ark of the Covenant was so deadly to non-believers?
What date this occur and where may I find it referenced in Scripture?
What date did this occur and where may I find it referenced in Scripture?
All of it unnecessary in your view. How is scattering the Body of Christ considered a good thing? Given that the vast majority of those scattered do not believe as you believe, are they wrong? Given that they believe contradictory things, how is that right? Where in Scripture did Christ claim to found many different churches believing vastly different Christianities?
You might want to reread the Prodigal Son—you seem to think God’s love for us is analogous to the father in that parable driving his sons out of his house rather than rejoicing when they return. Which calls to mind, where precisely in Scripture may I find God urging us to “celebrate diversity”?
Well, compounding one mortal sin with another would never be a good idea! Until you return to Christ’s Church, though, you are an aimless sheep subject to wolves. The Shepherd is calling you—why do you not come to Him?
And Christ’s claim that his Church is founded on Peter (the first Pope) doesn’t matter, then?
You can stand as you like, but you will not stand in the presence of the Father until you stand within the Body of Christ as He commanded you to do.
I admire your faith, but highly recommend you read your Bible with a special eye toward the concept of obedience to God. We are Catholic because we obey God, not because we obey ourselves.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Why not trust God when he gave us a physical Church, Chirst? Why not trust that continued presents on earth? Why would you choose to trust something else?
To live by faith is to trust in the promises of God.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
It wouldn’t be of God if the serpent said that. The Traditions of the Church are. Big Difference!
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kaycee
Guest
Yes, Trust the Holy Spirit sent by God. The Real Vicar of Christ on earth.
As we can see even in the churches of Revelation, they were not infallible, they erred AND taught error.
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look3467
Guest
Teflon93
I would like to say first, thanks for being civil and willing to openly discuss the issues without condemnation.
I will answer your response line by line.
It is not primarily about mankind’s sacrifices or obedience. Wait! Let me explain that before you misconstrue what I said.
The whole purpose of the coming of Christ was that no human being ever would have the strength to become completely obedient enough to win it’s own salvation.
God is the only one capable to accomplish that, and so He did, in a human body, sacrificed in lieu of the whole human race.
To that end then is what the whole of the bible is all about.
Much like saying to you, Teflon93, believe what I say to you verses what you already know from the Catholic Church. You would debate it wouldn’t you? Not so easy to change is it?
The Jews required circumcision of the flesh, while what really mattered was the circumcision of the heart.
Does this sound like man made? Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
What part of that is not clear to you? It was a matter of dispute to the apostles for they at that time had no clear understanding of it, and was something to contend with until the Holy Spirit revealed to them the truth.
The Apostles were like as children growing up learning as they went, but had the holy Spirit as their instructor.
I will say if here, because I don’t believe you can handle what this verse really means in light of the rest of the bible, but suffice it to say that Jesus clearly did not like what they were doing.
But of course, Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, so things had not changed yet.
God selected what was an earthly number to launch His new kingdom and where 12 is representative of the whole earth.
The church is identified with a body of believers. The body of believers in Corinth, the body of believers in Laodicean, the body of believers in Philadelphia, etc.
The body of believers, where ever they are and by what ever name they associated themselves from, towns, cities, are a body which is the church of Christ.
Because the body of Christ was in its infancy, God provided special gifts: 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
By design, as I believe it to be, God allowed the Catholic Church to originate as a tool to spread His message, but like all things human, it has had it’s pit-falls. Because of the pit-falls, God saw to it to divide it into many denominations. No, you say?
Look at the example of the golden statue in Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This was a Kingdom that was divided, split into many. And guess who did the splitting?
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. …The “stone”, the rock of ages, Jesus….
Upon this rock, faith of Jesus is the body of believer built upon, not an earthly organization so called by any particular name.
You are a believer in the body of Christ, if you pray for the sick, God is obligated to respond to your pleas, as promised. Meaning that what you bind (pray for) God will respond.
You have the same access to the Father by Jesus as the Pope, no more and no less. So happens that the Pope is who he is and you are who you are.
Now, we can all see Him come in spirit into our lives. You do have spiritual eyes to see don’t you?
That child has to deal with all the issues of life, learning as it grows and suffering as it grows, yet getting wiser as time goes and as the child matures.
The various views as you pointed out, are views that have yet to be worked out.
I have worked them out already and believe I have understanding concerning the whole of humanity as looked upon by God in Jesus and not what mankind thinks it ought to be looked at.
Continued on next post>>>AJ
I would like to say first, thanks for being civil and willing to openly discuss the issues without condemnation.
I will answer your response line by line.
In light of the mission of Christ, supported by other scriptures, the whole picture of the word of God, (Bible) is about mankind’s redemption.
It is not primarily about mankind’s sacrifices or obedience. Wait! Let me explain that before you misconstrue what I said.
The whole purpose of the coming of Christ was that no human being ever would have the strength to become completely obedient enough to win it’s own salvation.
God is the only one capable to accomplish that, and so He did, in a human body, sacrificed in lieu of the whole human race.
To that end then is what the whole of the bible is all about.
The debate was the difference between the law and grace. The law required, while grace didn’t.
Much like saying to you, Teflon93, believe what I say to you verses what you already know from the Catholic Church. You would debate it wouldn’t you? Not so easy to change is it?
The Jews required circumcision of the flesh, while what really mattered was the circumcision of the heart.
Does this sound like man made? Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
What part of that is not clear to you? It was a matter of dispute to the apostles for they at that time had no clear understanding of it, and was something to contend with until the Holy Spirit revealed to them the truth.
The Apostles were like as children growing up learning as they went, but had the holy Spirit as their instructor.
Want to know what Jesus said about them? Read: Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I will say if here, because I don’t believe you can handle what this verse really means in light of the rest of the bible, but suffice it to say that Jesus clearly did not like what they were doing.
But of course, Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, so things had not changed yet.
First, you have to admire God for the way He does and did things. You will agree that the number 12 is an earthly organizational number? A dozen, 12 person jury, 12 months in a year, a day divided into two 12 hour periods day/night, 12 sons of Jacob as the 12 tribes of Israel, etc.
God selected what was an earthly number to launch His new kingdom and where 12 is representative of the whole earth.
What is the church of Christ? Read: Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.Mystery? I mean if it was a physical church, would it be a mystery, or is there something more that is not being seen that is a mystery to them that have not the understanding of it?
The church is identified with a body of believers. The body of believers in Corinth, the body of believers in Laodicean, the body of believers in Philadelphia, etc.
The body of believers, where ever they are and by what ever name they associated themselves from, towns, cities, are a body which is the church of Christ.
Because the body of Christ was in its infancy, God provided special gifts: 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
By design, as I believe it to be, God allowed the Catholic Church to originate as a tool to spread His message, but like all things human, it has had it’s pit-falls. Because of the pit-falls, God saw to it to divide it into many denominations. No, you say?
Look at the example of the golden statue in Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This was a Kingdom that was divided, split into many. And guess who did the splitting?
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. …The “stone”, the rock of ages, Jesus….
Upon this rock, faith of Jesus is the body of believer built upon, not an earthly organization so called by any particular name.
I did not dodge the question; you did not understand my answer. Authority is given to the body of Christ period.
You are a believer in the body of Christ, if you pray for the sick, God is obligated to respond to your pleas, as promised. Meaning that what you bind (pray for) God will respond.
You have the same access to the Father by Jesus as the Pope, no more and no less. So happens that the Pope is who he is and you are who you are.
The simple answer is a biblical one, you decide: Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Now, we can all see Him come in spirit into our lives. You do have spiritual eyes to see don’t you?
As a matter of fact, I am more educated, experienced and given to see by the Spirit of God some of the things that are a mystery to many, yet with responsibility to share it without discrimination and with compassion.
Nothing disconnected here, it’s just that you didn’t make the connection. All those scriptures are pieces of a puzzle that fit perfectly to make the whole picture a little clearer. Some see it and many don’t.
No, I am dead on. The body of Christ is what is addressed, and the word church is representative of that body. The churches are addressed as to location, not to denomination.
As I mentioned many times before, the body (Group of believers) are as like a child growing up.
That child has to deal with all the issues of life, learning as it grows and suffering as it grows, yet getting wiser as time goes and as the child matures.
The various views as you pointed out, are views that have yet to be worked out.
I have worked them out already and believe I have understanding concerning the whole of humanity as looked upon by God in Jesus and not what mankind thinks it ought to be looked at.
I didn’t say not necessary I said it to mean that Christ came to save “that” which was lost; and which includes all of us and not only those who are not like us. (Perceived to be sinners unlike us?) Hmmm?
Continued on next post>>>AJ
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look3467
Guest
Continued from last post>>>AJ
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
That verse of course is speaking of Jesus, but can also be applied to us, for Jesus has made atonement for all our sins, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
With that, come to Jesus boldly, for He will not turn anybody away.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. “Let us make us a name”? Mankind’s pride and lustful control.
Another instance is: Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
By scattering, the dependency is on God rather than in a man or an organization.
The righteous son is akin to people who think themselves better than, while the other son, akin to unbelievers.
That which was lost, is now rejoiced over for it was found, and God celebrates that.
I am a member of the body of Christ and in Him I have no sin! Think about that!
Sacrifices are things mankind does as an offering to the Lord, but God want our hearts first, then spiritual sacrifices are then made according to His desires.
Peace>>>AJ
Prior to the sacrifice of Jesus, Yes, I agree with you, but after the sacrifice of Jesus, we are cleansed, made clean by His blood, so as to make of His bride (us) a chaste virgin.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
That verse of course is speaking of Jesus, but can also be applied to us, for Jesus has made atonement for all our sins, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
With that, come to Jesus boldly, for He will not turn anybody away.
Please Goggle the word “Inquisition” and study it.
One of the reasons for scattering is that mankind tries to become like God, read:
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. “Let us make us a name”? Mankind’s pride and lustful control.
Another instance is: Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
By scattering, the dependency is on God rather than in a man or an organization.
If you notice in that parable, it was not the father who initiated the departure but the son? We are the ones who depart because of our own lusts.
The righteous son is akin to people who think themselves better than, while the other son, akin to unbelievers.
That which was lost, is now rejoiced over for it was found, and God celebrates that.
Sin is sin regardless of how we want to color it. In this case, you are coloring it a sin not to be a member of the catholic Church, and coloring it a “mortal sin”.
I am a member of the body of Christ and in Him I have no sin! Think about that!
Again: a matter of understanding. But, if you so desire, as you do, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Catholic, unless you take your eyes off Christ, and if you did, then your beliefs would be useless.
You’re not St. Peter at the pearly gates are you?
Obedience: from the heart? Yes? Read: 1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Sacrifices are things mankind does as an offering to the Lord, but God want our hearts first, then spiritual sacrifices are then made according to His desires.
Peace>>>AJ
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
It’s important to note that even today there are whole groups of christians that follow and have faith in only what they allow themselves to believe about God, regardless of what God intended as was taught by Christ, through no fault of their own. The “fullness” of Truth can only be found in Christ and his Church.
T
Teflon93
Guest
Well, two problems here.
One is the implication that God laid down the Law knowing no man would ever be righteous enough to live up to it. I don’t believe that is true at all, nor supported by Scripture, which is full of righteous men who obey the Law.
Number two is the misconception that Catholics believe in salvation through works. This is a calumny which is refuted in the Catechism.
The point has clearly been missed.
There was a debate over what elements of the Law remained because Christ told the Apostles he didn’t come to abolish the Law. You seem to believe that he did. If he came to abolish the Law, why didn’t he tell the Apostles, many of whom were Jews, after all, that he did? There was a debate because it was not clear in what ways the Law had changed. That is an inconvenient fact for Protestant theology of the sort you espouse, which is about a millenium-and-a-half too late.
Perhaps if you quoted Scripture where it states that the Holy Spirit revealed this it would help support your argument. Otherwise, there’s an awful lot of earthly interpretation going on here which you lack authority to do!
Yeah, those Sanhedrin were an evil, unrighteous lot, which is why Christ returned in A.D. 70 to destroy them, as prophesied in Daniel.
Unfortunately for your argument, Christ also specifically commissioned the apostles as his priests. He gave them the sacraments that Catholic priests wield to this day, 2,000 years later, and sent them out to fulfill the mission that Catholic priests fulfill to this day.
Well, mighty charitable of you to argue softly in light of my limited faculties!
However, it might be quicker if you simply call me a liar rather than insinuate it.
Numerology aside, why not millions? God needs no intermediaries in your view, right? Why not simply appear to the world at Pentecost? Would that not have been the most effective way of communicating the grace you posit?
The Catholic Church. Perhaps if you included context rather than cherrypickings more of the mystery would be revealed.
The mystery of course is not that the Church is invisible, but that the Church is the Bride of Christ. Context matters, you know.
No, Christ founded ONE Church. Peter and Paul’s letters were addressed to several communities, but all belonged to the Church. Look up “catholic”.
So Paul therefore had no authority to call these communities away from heresy, right? Wrong. One Church, not many churches, and certainly not The Atomic Church of Me.
No, I say. God did not call for the dismembering of the Bride of Christ.
Yes, it is quite common for anti-Catholic Protestants to misuse Daniel. Christ didn’t say he was founding his Church upon the faith of Peter, but upon Peter. He happened to also say so while staring at a big rock. And in so doing, he renamed Simon “Peter, the Rock”. Who is it that refuses to understand again?
Better stop acting like it’s been given to you, then! Repent and join the Church!
God is not obligated to do anything. Man does not bind God. Are all your prayers answered in the way you intend them to be?
The Pope receives direct guidance from the Holy Spirit when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals. I am not Pope. You are not Pope either, although you seem to think you are.
Yes. That’s why the Church is visible to me and invisible to you.
Wasn’t pride a sin? Christ calls you to humility, AJ.
And some simply play Bible Bingo because they cannot fashion an argument. Which are you?
Correct. And if they were invisible, what would their address be?
So by your definition Unitarians are the wisest of all, right? What a curious notion of history you have!
How will they be worked out in this dismembered, invisible Church of yours?
I will pray for you, AJ. You must be a very young man to be so prideful and arrogant! Is that how Christ looks to you?
The Church is the hospital for sinners. We are all sinners. Why don’t you come to the hospital and be healed, AJ?
L
look3467
Guest
Teflon93
“The same in hope” and that hope is Jesus.
For is I don’t have the works, I must not have the faith, but if I have the faith, works follow.
Works then is an indication of the faith.
Did the thief on the cross have any works? The: adulterous women? The: sinners that Jesus sat to eat and drink with?
Faith is not a tangible thing, it is a spiritual thing that is what God deals with us in.
Grace requires us to “willing want” verses to “have to”. The law required “Have to”, where grace gives us the desire to.
Circumcision was of the law, thus required physically, but of the heart, is one inwardly, a spiritual circumcision, of what was in question that had to be understood.
Please read that chapter and let the Holy Spirit teach you.
Here’s a few: 7 churches, 7 spirits, 7-fold, seven golden candlesticks, 7-stars, seven angels, seven golden vials, 7 years of plenty, 7 years of drought, etc.
How about 4 beasts with 6 wings, And the city lieth foursquare, 4 cubits, I mean I could go on and on.
The question should be, why those particular numbers and why are they repeatedly used?
You want to call it numerology so as to reject it, then so be it. But you will be limiting yourself to further understanding of the word of God.
Can you understand that? If not, then it is a mystery to you.
But, as time when on the Holy Spirit would raised up teachers, priests, and instructors.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Is that a promise Lord?
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
I mean what more can we want? Here’s a God who will work on our behalf!
The Pope is there because God allows it. There is absolutely nothing in this world that God has not a hand in it.
So by your definition Unitarians are the wisest of all, right? What a curious notion of history you have!>>> Teflon93
We all can be part of the body, a finger, a toe, an eye, ear, nose, hair, with only one intention, and that is to keep the body whole, all working for the head of the body which is Christ.
Now, picture it a spiritual body with us being the building blocks of that spiritual church.
I am 60 years old and God has enlightened me in many things.
That is to whom we owe our services to.
Peace, my fiend>>>AJ
If you look for the puzzle pieces, perhaps you can piece them together, read: EZE 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;Pieces to the puzzle added to this one: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
“The same in hope” and that hope is Jesus.
That is because faith alone is not enough as your argument entails. Did you not say a mortal sin was because I don’t belong to the Catholic Church? There, you added a works to equal, faith+works.
For is I don’t have the works, I must not have the faith, but if I have the faith, works follow.
Works then is an indication of the faith.
Did the thief on the cross have any works? The: adulterous women? The: sinners that Jesus sat to eat and drink with?
Faith is not a tangible thing, it is a spiritual thing that is what God deals with us in.
Not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law, which is two different things. The law remains, but we are no longer debtors to the law but are under grace of which is no law.
Grace requires us to “willing want” verses to “have to”. The law required “Have to”, where grace gives us the desire to.
Circumcision was of the law, thus required physically, but of the heart, is one inwardly, a spiritual circumcision, of what was in question that had to be understood.
Does the Catholic require circumcision? If not, why not? Or has that issue been settled by the Apostles? The Catholic Church> The Protestants, or the Jews?
You mean Christ returned in AD 70? That news to me.
Explain to me the following scriptures: 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Please read that chapter and let the Holy Spirit teach you.
No disrespect intended, it is that what I know about it would curl your hair. So, I won’t share that with you.
No, why should I. If there is no understanding you are not at fault.
Do you deny that the bible has repeatedly used sets of numbers? Why is that, have you ever wondered?
Here’s a few: 7 churches, 7 spirits, 7-fold, seven golden candlesticks, 7-stars, seven angels, seven golden vials, 7 years of plenty, 7 years of drought, etc.
How about 4 beasts with 6 wings, And the city lieth foursquare, 4 cubits, I mean I could go on and on.
The question should be, why those particular numbers and why are they repeatedly used?
You want to call it numerology so as to reject it, then so be it. But you will be limiting yourself to further understanding of the word of God.
I know the answer to the mystery, as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit through the scriptures.
Yes, you are correct in that the body of Christ (Church) is the bride of Christ, but the greater mystery to mankind is trying to understand how God can love the unrighteous as though they were righteous?
Can you understand that? If not, then it is a mystery to you.
Catholic, you mean universal? Yes, it means universal, so the body though many member-ed is universally the body of Christ. For all is one spirit and that being the Spirit of our Lord Jesus.
Yes, Paul had authority as given to Him by Christ as the leader of the infantile body of believers.
But, as time when on the Holy Spirit would raised up teachers, priests, and instructors.
So God didn’t smite the shepherd? And the people scattered?
A better understanding is not the faith of Peter, or his body, but the faith of Jesus that is rock solid, and upon that rock solid faith is what He built and is building His church on.
Gotta love you brother, or is it sister?
Well, you be the judge: Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Is that a promise Lord?
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
I mean what more can we want? Here’s a God who will work on our behalf!
I got a chuckle out of that one.
The Pope is there because God allows it. There is absolutely nothing in this world that God has not a hand in it.
Ooooooooooooooh….K!
What? Am I to disagreeable to sound and or look prideful? What if I should agree with all your views, would that make me humble…… In your eyes?
I don’t know, you tell me!
The heart!
So by your definition Unitarians are the wisest of all, right? What a curious notion of history you have!>>> Teflon93
We all can be part of the body, a finger, a toe, an eye, ear, nose, hair, with only one intention, and that is to keep the body whole, all working for the head of the body which is Christ.
Now, picture it a spiritual body with us being the building blocks of that spiritual church.
Gaining wisdom in understanding the word of God!
Thank you, I appreciate any prayers my way and rest assured that I will pray that God will proper you as your spirit prospers.
I am 60 years old and God has enlightened me in many things.
Invite those who don’t know who God is, the unwanted, the scornful, rejected and or condemned.
That is to whom we owe our services to.
Peace, my fiend>>>AJ
T
Teflon93
Guest
AJ, you simply wear me out!
I will grant you that at 60 years old you have more youthful vigor than people half your age.
Obviously, I cannot argue private revelation you claim to have received. You either have or have not, and correctly interpreted it or not if you have.
Unfortunately, I have no indication that you have authority regarding your revelation. When Peter confessed what the Holy Spirit revealed to him about Christ, Christ himself was there to confirm it and did so. He hasn’t done the same here—at least not yet.
I therefore rely on the Church, the Body of Christ, which God himself has allowed to persevere 2,000 years and counting, with the Supreme Pontiff Pope Benedict XVI as its earthly head, who traces his succession back to Peter upon whom Christ vowed to found it. Many claim to personal revelation; it is doubtful that all who do have indeed had it. There is only one person on the face of the Earth who has undeniable authority in this regard and that’s the man in St Peter’s chair in Rome.
But should the college of cardinals select you as his successor, AJ, I will make that pilgrimage Romeward with a glad heart indeed.
I will grant you that at 60 years old you have more youthful vigor than people half your age.
Obviously, I cannot argue private revelation you claim to have received. You either have or have not, and correctly interpreted it or not if you have.
Unfortunately, I have no indication that you have authority regarding your revelation. When Peter confessed what the Holy Spirit revealed to him about Christ, Christ himself was there to confirm it and did so. He hasn’t done the same here—at least not yet.
I therefore rely on the Church, the Body of Christ, which God himself has allowed to persevere 2,000 years and counting, with the Supreme Pontiff Pope Benedict XVI as its earthly head, who traces his succession back to Peter upon whom Christ vowed to found it. Many claim to personal revelation; it is doubtful that all who do have indeed had it. There is only one person on the face of the Earth who has undeniable authority in this regard and that’s the man in St Peter’s chair in Rome.
But should the college of cardinals select you as his successor, AJ, I will make that pilgrimage Romeward with a glad heart indeed.
L
look3467
Guest
Teflon93AJ, you simply wear me out!
I will grant you that at 60 years old you have more youthful vigor than people half your age.
Obviously, I cannot argue private revelation you claim to have received. You either have or have not, and correctly interpreted it or not if you have.
Unfortunately, I have no indication that you have authority regarding your revelation. When Peter confessed what the Holy Spirit revealed to him about Christ, Christ himself was there to confirm it and did so. He hasn’t done the same here—at least not yet.
I therefore rely on the Church, the Body of Christ, which God himself has allowed to persevere 2,000 years and counting, with the Supreme Pontiff Pope Benedict XVI as its earthly head, who traces his succession back to Peter upon whom Christ vowed to found it. Many claim to personal revelation; it is doubtful that all who do have indeed had it. There is only one person on the face of the Earth who has undeniable authority in this regard and that’s the man in St Peter’s chair in Rome.
But should the college of cardinals select you as his successor, AJ, I will make that pilgrimage Romeward with a glad heart indeed.
It was a pleasure talking to you about our Lord. It wasn’t meant for me to change anything about you or your beliefs, simply exchanging views. If the Holy Spirit leads either of us to new knowledge, then we are of most, blessed.
The Holy Spirit talking to us is not a very dramatic, light-flashing or bells and whistles kind of thing, He simply lends a thought or two about something and we receive it gently, and quietly.
When we do receive revelation, there is a joy of contentment because you will know God is hearing us.
I appreciate the thought of the College of the Cardinals, but unless one is called, one need not apply.
And I know you meant that in good taste.
Listen, I hope you will reflect back on all that I said and let it ride for now, perhaps sometime down the line, some of it may be confirmed by the spirit of God who is our teacher.
The best to you and your family.
A brother in Christ>>>AJ
T
Teflon93
Guest
AJ, I may not agree with you, but you are clearly a man of Christ and my brother. Your witness is your witness; you have clearly been called to share it and I very much respect that.
Absolutely. Time and again in Scripture we see that one must remove distraction to truly here God, whether it be Jesus in the wilderness, or Saul on the road.
Very much so. It was intended as a compliment, not as a knock. One knows true Christians by their fruits, after all, and I think you demonstrate the good fruit the Lord spoke of. Now if only you’d join the Church!
I surely will.
And the best to you and yours, my friend.
Z
Ziggamafu
Guest
Thought of a couple more for the “once-saved-always-saved” types:
How can a guy be sure that he really meant it (when he asked Jesus into his heart) when he falls into sin repeatedly and when he sees others who have made such an act of faith and later abandoned the faith entirely?
What is the criteria that determines whether one’s faith is saving faith at all?
How can a guy be sure that he really meant it (when he asked Jesus into his heart) when he falls into sin repeatedly and when he sees others who have made such an act of faith and later abandoned the faith entirely?
What is the criteria that determines whether one’s faith is saving faith at all?
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