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Teflon93
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And it is of course impossible to take anything to an Invisible Church since it cannot be seen.
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Nick_Jones
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Take it to which church? The JW “church”? The Mormon “church”? What if the crafty serpent had told Adam and Eve that *his Tradition *guarded the spoken word until it was written as the inspired word of God, and that “Guarding the word” is his Tradition? Apparently, you think this would have excused Adam’s sinful rejection of God’s complete authority over him!!! There is absolutely no excuse for turning away from God’s authorityThe word of God was spoken to humans not written by God physically. Tradition guarded the spoken word until it was written as the inspired word of God. “Guarding the word” is our Tradition. The Tradition continues today…
The bible is the inspired word of God, but there can only be one Truth. Your interpertation of the bible is different than mine. Who is correct? We can’t both be. How does the bible tell us to resolve this problem?
Take it to the Church… We’ll lead the way if you care to follow.
Christ is the head of the Church after all. You can choose to follow him in his earthly Church or continue to follow what you think and feel is best.
How does the fallible individual obtain the infallible knowlege of which so-called “church” is the one founded by Jesus and His apostles?
As I told someone earlier in this thread:
Your faith in the CC seems very strong indeed! Couldn’t we (just as fallibly) say that the bible is 100% infallible in matters of faith and morals, when it intends to define something as such?
If we are all fallible individuals, then it seems to me that we can eliminate the “middle man” and just appeal to the authority of God through the bible. In this way, if my fallible judgment has led me into error, at least my error was to trust in what God seems to have said rather than trusting in what Rome seems to have said.
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Nick_Jones
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How does the fact that written scripture had not yet existed excuse Adam and Eve’s decision to reject God’s word follow the serpent?I’m denying that God communicated to Adam and Eve through Scripture, which didn’t exist yet.
Well, then the serpent could just as easily have called his spoken words to Adam and Eve “Holy Tradition” and he could have explained to them that his Tradition is of equal authority to the “Tradition” that was spoken by God. Apparently, you think this would have excused Adam and Eve’s sin!!!Communicating God’s teaching orally is Tradition. We recognize its importance; those who adhere to sola scriptura deny it.
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look3467
Guest
Ladies and Gentleman:
The whole point is being missed here.
Tradition or no tradition, church or no church, if love is not exercised by any of you, then throw the whole thing out the window.
Forget religion all together.
Look,…… what is God’s main objective? Not mankind’s but God’s main objective.
Can we sum it all up in two sentences?
I would say mankind would require ten, but God requires two.
Can you guess which two?
If you don’t know what I am talking about, then continue your arguments, because you can’t see it anyways.
God is not a religion, mankind makes religions, God is love and if you are of God, then you want to exercise His type of love, regardless of what religion one professes to be of.
Peace>>>AJ
The whole point is being missed here.
Tradition or no tradition, church or no church, if love is not exercised by any of you, then throw the whole thing out the window.
Forget religion all together.
Look,…… what is God’s main objective? Not mankind’s but God’s main objective.
Can we sum it all up in two sentences?
I would say mankind would require ten, but God requires two.
Can you guess which two?
If you don’t know what I am talking about, then continue your arguments, because you can’t see it anyways.
God is not a religion, mankind makes religions, God is love and if you are of God, then you want to exercise His type of love, regardless of what religion one professes to be of.
Peace>>>AJ
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Ziggamafu
Guest
In skimming this thread, it seems you may have missed a couple of posts about the purpose for such questions. Whereas Catholics are (generally) not aggressive or offensive in their evangelism, Protestants can be, especially when “witnessing” to Catholics. The “stumper” questions on this thread are not for maliciously flinging at every Protestant one runs into. They to be used at appropriate times, such as when a Protestant is being unacceptably confrontational or rude. The result is, in fact, what you yourself would prefer to argument or debate. Either the person begins to dialogue or the person backs down and walks away. In either case, this result is far more preferable to either a heated argument or a Catholic’s remaining silent and thus poorly representing the truth. It may make you uncomfortable, but we are commanded - with love and *for *love’s sake - to evangelize. These *questions *are a great, more polite way to do just that.Ladies and Gentleman:
The whole point is being missed here.
Tradition or no tradition, church or no church, if love is not exercised by any of you, then throw the whole thing out the window.
Forget religion all together.
Look,…… what is God’s main objective? Not mankind’s but God’s main objective.
Can we sum it all up in two sentences?
I would say mankind would require ten, but God requires two.
Can you guess which two?
If you don’t know what I am talking about, then continue your arguments, because you can’t see it anyways.
God is not a religion, mankind makes religions, God is love and if you are of God, then you want to exercise His type of love, regardless of what religion one professes to be of.
Peace>>>AJ
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look3467
Guest
Ziggamafu,
You are right, I did miss a couple of posts getting to the end of the list, but still what I picked up was an attitude displayed.
I was addressing the attitude, no personal attacks.
Sometimes, a dose of reality is needed, not necessary for or against anything, but as a catalyst for thinking, analyzing ones own thoughts.
I am sensitive to Catholic beliefs as well as all others as well.
God’s love knows no bounds, no religious beliefs and is not a respecter of persons.
Admonition, accepted.
Peace>>>AJ
You are right, I did miss a couple of posts getting to the end of the list, but still what I picked up was an attitude displayed.
I was addressing the attitude, no personal attacks.
Sometimes, a dose of reality is needed, not necessary for or against anything, but as a catalyst for thinking, analyzing ones own thoughts.
I am sensitive to Catholic beliefs as well as all others as well.
God’s love knows no bounds, no religious beliefs and is not a respecter of persons.
Admonition, accepted.
Peace>>>AJ
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Take it to which church?
There is only one Church, notice the capital “C”. All others are ecumenical gathering, only one Church. Christ must be present to be a Church. Can you point to Christ in your faith gathering?
The JW “church”? The Mormon “church”? What if the crafty serpent had told Adam and Eve that *his Tradition *guarded the spoken word until it was written as the inspired word of God, and that “Guarding the word” is his Tradition? Apparently, you think this would have excused Adam’s sinful rejection of God’s complete authority over him!!!
“What if”, I like that game, What if the crafty serpent had told Adam that the serpert could divide God’s people in the future, that he would allow the people to discern what they believe to be true about God for themselves and some would separate themselves from Truth. What if the crafty serpent like the idea so much that he decided to call it, protestantism?
**There is absolutely no excuse for turning away from God’s authority. **
Yet you do that when you sin, do you not? What is that excuse, again?
Isn’t sin a rejection of God’s authority, and making your own desires your own authority?
How does the fallible individual obtain the infallible knowlege of which so-called “church” is the one founded by Jesus and His apostles?
As I told someone earlier in this thread:
Your faith in the CC seems very strong indeed! Couldn’t we (just as fallibly) say that the bible is 100% infallible in matters of faith and morals, when it intends to define something as such?
“If” the bible didn’t have to be defined by an infallable Church, then you may have a point. " If " Christ didn’t reside in the Church as promised, then you may have a point. If Christ wasn’t at the head of the Church. If the Church wasn’t the bride of Christ. IF the Church wasn’t a pillar of Truth, then you may have a point.
Your personal chooses not to reconize the role of the Church makes it no less an infallable source from God.
If we are all fallible individuals, then it seems to me that we can eliminate the “middle man” and just appeal to the authority of God through the bible, or thru Christ’s Church, no middle man. In this way, if my fallible judgment has led me into error, at least my error was to trust in what God seems to have said rather than trusting in what Rome seems to have said. You not wanting to grasp this Truth, are you? On whose authority, do you act in this idea that Truth does not exist in the Church?
Christ is the head of the Church. Think about that for a moment…
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Teflon93
Guest
That is what we call a complete non sequitur.How does the fact that written scripture had not yet existed excuse Adam and Eve’s decision to reject God’s word follow the serpent?
Clearly, since Scripture didn’t exist, Adam and Eve received God’s revelation directly from God via Tradition and Magisterium, the very modes of transmission you would have us toss away!
Could have, but didn’t. At least not in Scripture, which is the authoritative account in your view, right?Well, then the serpent could just as easily have called his spoken words to Adam and Eve “Holy Tradition” and he could have explained to them that his Tradition is of equal authority to the “Tradition” that was spoken by God. Apparently, you think this would have excused Adam and Eve’s sin!!!
Your last line is another non sequitur. Exclamation points don’t make something true anymore than a pastor without authority claiming God revealed something to him makes that true.
To convince anyone here of anything, you’ll really need to bone up on your logic and reasoning and drop the non sequiturs.
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Teflon93
Guest
So when Christ confronted Saul and asked him why he persecuted him, when Saul had persecuted his Church, Christ simply didn’t know what he was talking about. When Christ referred to the Church as the Body of Christ, he didn’t know what he was talking about either.Ladies and Gentleman:
The whole point is being missed here.
Tradition or no tradition, church or no church, if love is not exercised by any of you, then throw the whole thing out the window.
Forget religion all together.
Look,…… what is God’s main objective? Not mankind’s but God’s main objective.
Can we sum it all up in two sentences?
I would say mankind would require ten, but God requires two.
Can you guess which two?
If you don’t know what I am talking about, then continue your arguments, because you can’t see it anyways.
God is not a religion, mankind makes religions, God is love and if you are of God, then you want to exercise His type of love, regardless of what religion one professes to be of.
Peace>>>AJ
This is the kind of thing that happens when man “forgets religion altogether”.
But keep searching for the useable Christ. Just don’t be surprised when he turns out to look just like you since you’re searching armed with a mirror rather than Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium.
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look3467
Guest
My friend, I have Christ and need none other. Can you stand with Christ alone, or do you need a religion to belong to?So when Christ confronted Saul and asked him why he persecuted him, when Saul had persecuted his Church, Christ simply didn’t know what he was talking about. When Christ referred to the Church as the Body of Christ, he didn’t know what he was talking about either.
This is the kind of thing that happens when man “forgets religion altogether”.
But keep searching for the useable Christ. Just don’t be surprised when he turns out to look just like you since you’re searching armed with a mirror rather than Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium.
The irony of this whole thing, is that we both know Christ, yet we can be selective in our way of looking at Him and decide that our way is the only way.
What then should be the common bond between all of us, believers and unbelievers?
I have no problem with you been a good Catholic. The only thing I do is share my views as a matter of discussion.
Who knows, perhaps someone may learn something?
Be all you can be in the Catholic religion, but love those who believe different, for God loves them to.
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Peace>>>AJ
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Teflon93
Guest
The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. Moreover, we have the Actual Presence, and consume the Eucharist as he bid us do.My friend, I have Christ and need none other. Can you stand with Christ alone, or do you need a religion to belong to?
Christ said, “Do this in remembrance of me.” Why do you ignore him?
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Nick_Jones
Guest
What do you mean? Are you saying that the RCC (along with its Tradition and its Magisterium) existed at the time Adam and Eve ate the fruit? I thought that the church was founded by Christ and the apostles. Could you please explain what you mean here?That is what we call a complete non sequitur.
Clearly, since Scripture didn’t exist, Adam and Eve received God’s revelation directly from God via Tradition and Magisterium, the very modes of transmission you would have us toss away!
Could have, but didn’t. At least not in Scripture, which is the authoritative account in your view, right?
Your last line is another non sequitur. Exclamation points don’t make something true anymore than a pastor without authority claiming God revealed something to him makes that true.
What non sequiturs? Again, the basis for your objection is very unclear. I’ll gladly respond if you will clarify how my last line was a non sequitur.To convince anyone here of anything, you’ll really need to bone up on your logic and reasoning and drop the non sequiturs.
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Nick_Jones
Guest
We can’t point to what is unseen. Lots of people have put their trust in physical signs–in things that are visible (e.g. the visible church with its visible sacraments) and believe that in them they should trust. But to trust God we must live by faith. To live by faith is to trust in things unseen.There is only one Church, notice the capital “C”. All others are ecumenical gathering, only one Church. Christ must be present to be a Church. Can you point to Christ in your faith gathering?
2 Cor. 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Isa. 66:2 For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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Nick_Jones
Guest
The bible teaches that Adam and Eve did have the capacity to discern what they would believe to be true about God for themselves. Before the fall, they truly did have free will. Humanity first turned away from God by accepting some authority other than God’s authority. All the division that we see in religion, politics, and everything else, is the direct consequence of the very first sin.“What if”, I like that game, What if the crafty serpent had told Adam that the serpert could divide God’s people in the future, that he would allow the people to discern what they believe to be true about God for themselves and some would separate themselves from Truth. What if the crafty serpent like the idea so much that he decided to call it, protestantism?
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Nick_Jones
Guest
Absolutey right. Every time I sin, I have rejected God’s authority over me. That is why it is sin.Yet you do that when you sin, do you not? What is that excuse, again?
Isn’t sin a rejection of God’s authority, and making your own desires your own authority?
Where in the bible have you seen anything about a infallible church?“If” the bible didn’t have to be defined by an infallable Church, then you may have a point. "
Your personal chooses not to reconize the role of the Church makes it no less an infallable source from God.
The church here on earth is fallible (see Gal. 2:11-16). God is infallible.You not wanting to grasp this Truth, are you? On whose authority, do you act in this idea that Truth does not exist in the Church?
We do agree on some things!Christ is the head of the Church. Think about that for a moment…
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look3467
Guest
That is a requirement you believe I should meet.The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. Moreover, we have the Actual Presence, and consume the Eucharist as he bid us do.
Christ said, “Do this in remembrance of me.” Why do you ignore him?
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
“as often” means “when” and if you do, it shows your participation in the Lord’s death.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The life I now live? I live by the faith of the Son of God.
How much closer to God can one get? Or, should I meet some requirements as set forth by some statue of mankind’s requiring I adhere to it?
Jesus has set me free: Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. I therefore stand fast in that liberty, and not under any yoke of bondage.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
And the fruits thereof:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
If I claim anything, let it be seen, and may they see the fruits of the Spirit of God in me.
Peace>>>AJ
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look3467
Guest
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
God spoke to mankind via individuals indwell-ed by the Holy Spirit up until the last times.
The last times means the final authority of all prophecy fulfilled and that was by none other than the Son of God.
Jesus’ sacrifice was the end of the Levitical priesthood. Was no longer needed as our High Priest as now is Christ, and His Holy Spirit our comforter.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
I cry out directly to Jesus my high priest, mediator: 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I can approcah the throne of God boldly: Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Now, if I have spoken something that is damnable, or, not according to…, then, I must be missing the whole thing completely.
Therefore condemned.
Peace>>>AJ
God spoke to mankind via individuals indwell-ed by the Holy Spirit up until the last times.
The last times means the final authority of all prophecy fulfilled and that was by none other than the Son of God.
Jesus’ sacrifice was the end of the Levitical priesthood. Was no longer needed as our High Priest as now is Christ, and His Holy Spirit our comforter.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
I cry out directly to Jesus my high priest, mediator: 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I can approcah the throne of God boldly: Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Now, if I have spoken something that is damnable, or, not according to…, then, I must be missing the whole thing completely.
Therefore condemned.
Peace>>>AJ
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Teflon93
Guest
Christ is God.What do you mean? Are you saying that the RCC (along with its Tradition and its Magisterium) existed at the time Adam and Eve ate the fruit? I thought that the church was founded by Christ and the apostles. Could you please explain what you mean here?
Just as God directly instructed Adam and Eve, He directly instructs the Pope as He guides the Church. The Pope is only the latest in a long line of intermediaries God has employed since The Fall to guide His people.
Abraham. Noah. Moses. The High Priest of the Temple.
God did not write down His instructions to His intermediaries as a matter of course (although the Muslims claim He wrote the Koran). He taught them. When Christ came, he didn’t write anything down at all, from what we can tell (he drew in the dirt, but we’re not told what if anything he drew). He taught.
When Christ returned, he didn’t hand the Apostles the New Testament. He taught them.
This teaching, this Tradition, is a key component of Christ’s Church. The authority to teach is not granted to everyone, but stems from the Magisterium, the authority, of the Church as given to Peter by Christ when he founded it.
Thus, Christ’s Church consists of Magisterium, Tradition, and Scripture. Magisterium provides the authority of Christ. Tradition faithfully preserves Christ’s ministry. And Scripture records the public revelation of God.
Magisterium. Tradition. Scripture.
Your interjection of Adam and Eve was an attempt to criticize the Church. I merely pointed out that Adam and Eve are a curious choice for any Protestant to reference, as they had no Scripture whatsoever; only direct transmission of Tradition from the Magisterium of God. Adam and Eve are a pretty clear refutation of the notion of sola scriptura, one of the key underpinnings of Protestant theology. The Fall also represents a complete dismantling of sola fide as Adam and Eve certainly believed in God, certainly depended on God—they simply undertook an action, sin, which resulted in the loss of their immortality. This is probably why some Protestants don’t believe in original sin at all.What non sequiturs? Again, the basis for your objection is very unclear. I’ll gladly respond if you will clarify how my last line was a non sequitur.
Non sequiturs are complete irrelevancies to an argument interjected typically to waylay it. I never claimed Adam and Eve had any excuse for their sin—indeed, as a Catholic, I believe Adam and Eve were solely responsible for their sin. Introducing the false notion that I argued that Scripture not existing excused Adam and Eve is a non sequitur. As noted, I pointed out the lack of Scripture simply because Protestants tend to conveniently forget that it did not exist in any form for much of the time since Man was created. Moses came very late in the day in this regard.
Likewise, insinuating that the Catholic Church is somehow the serpent in the garden is a non sequitur. Indeed, it is a particularly silly one since the same principle is far more easily applied to the 30,000 Protestant denominations, all claiming the guidance of God, yet all teaching vastly different and contradictory things. Far likelier that Satan’s speaking to some of these folks than to the Pope—the Catholic Church has the benefit of consistent doctrine at least. Indeed, disagreeing with the Catholic Church is about the only thing Protestants agree upon these days!
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Teflon93
Guest
It is the requirement Christ commands of Christians.That is a requirement you believe I should meet.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
It doesn’t mean “if”. “Do this in remembrance of me” is not a request, but a command. It doesn’t demonstrate participation in the Lord’s death, but in the Lord’s Supper, otherwise known as the Mass.“as often” means “when” and if you do, it shows your participation in the Lord’s death.
Where did he ask us to “live by faith”?Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The life I now live? I live by the faith of the Son of God.
He told us to “do” things quite frequently—“Keep the commandments”, “give up all your possessions and follow me”, “let the dead bury the dead”, “do this in remembrance of me”, “love your neighbor as yourself”, etc. Where does he urge us to simply believe in him?
Go to Mass and find out. You’ll see us consuming the flesh and blood of Christ as he bid us do. It is his statute we follow, not Martin Luther’s, not Jean Calvin’s, nor anyone else who claims to have discovered such things to be unnecessary 1,500 years after Christ. It is you who have been waylaid by the false claims of men, I’m afraid.How much closer to God can one get? Or, should I meet some requirements as set forth by some statue of mankind’s requiring I adhere to it?
Jesus has set me free: Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. I therefore stand fast in that liberty, and not under any yoke of bondage.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
And the fruits thereof:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
How do you know you’re saved? What precisely are the fruits that demonstrate the seed was good? Did Mother Theresa and/or John Paul II demonstrate these fruits?If I claim anything, let it be seen, and may they see the fruits of the Spirit of God in me.
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Teflon93
Guest
Jesus’ sacrifice was the end of the Levitical priesthood. Was no longer needed as our High Priest as now is Christ, and His Holy Spirit our comforter.
Where precisely does Scripture state the above? Did Christ not give “binding and loosing” authority to his apostles? Did he give it to all mankind, or just to the apostles?
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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