Questions from a former Catholic thinking about returning

[Margaret_Ann]

Mary is dead but is very symbolic as a role model etc. Mary’s sins are forgiven and I could care less if everyone would agree she never committed even a venial sin.

1. Mary is not dead. She had no original sin and therefore was not subject to death.
2. Mary NEVER sinned. She had no sin - original, mortal or venial - and cooperated with the Will of God wholeheartedly.

God created Eve immaculate but Eve fell. He preserved Mary free from original sin because She was to be the Ever-Virgin Mother of His Only-Begotten Son. “Thou art all fair, my love, and there is not a spot in thee.” (Cant. of Canticles)

 

[Theo520]

1. Mary is not dead. She had no original sin and therefore was not subject to death.
2. Mary NEVER sinned. She had no sin - original, mortal or venial - and cooperated with the Will of God wholeheartedly.

God created Eve immaculate but Eve fell. He preserved Mary free from original sin because She was to be the Ever-Virgin Mother of His Only-Begotten Son. “Thou art all fair, my love, and there is not a spot in thee.” (Cant. of Canticles)

If Mary is not dead (std definition), send me her phone/address!

See, none of that really matters or impacts my challenges with living a Christ like life.

That’s the point I’m trying to make.

 

[midori]

Even the Church says-- “When Mary completed her earthly life…”

I think one of the biggest arguments to be made that Mary died at the Dormition was that Jesus had died during his Passion. Would Mary have accepted a privilege that her own Son didn’t take advantage of? I don’t think her humility would have allowed her, even if it was a privilege by right.

 

[Calliope]

At the end of the day, I think the only real question is whether or not you are convicted that the Catholic Church was instituted by God and holds the one true faith. You can sort out the other issues as you go.

If you believe it’s true, you can work to overcome your specific doubts under its guidance. If you don’t believe it has the authority it claims, then there is no point in worrying over details.

 

[midori]

Can someone explain to this cynic how sacramentals actually pass on blessings? How holy water actually makes things Holy? Because my understanding is that holiness is walking in accordance with the truth of God and who He is and what He says, and water just doesn’t do those things.

All right. So, look at Acts. What do you have there?

God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

That’s what sacramentals are like. (Technically, perhaps those might be more like relics?) So, let’s double-check what a sacramental is…

A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin. The chief sacramental is the Sign of the Cross.

Okay, so water is water… but when water is blessed, we use it prayerfully, and turn our minds to God. We ask for God’s blessing to come to the people we cross with it, and we ask for God’s blessing to come to the place we sprinkle it on.

There are different kinds of sacramentals. One is going to be the blessing from other people-- a sacramental of action. An unordained person making a blessing is going to be a “plea” or a “request”. Catholic clergy know they have a blessing to give. This kind of sacramental might be saying grace before meals. It might be blessing our kids on the way to school. It might be the Confiteor at Mass. (“I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned… therefore I ask blessed Mary, ever-Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”)

A second class of sacramental is going to be exorcisms. This can be a prayer, or it can be, say, a St. Benedict’s medal, or whatever.

A third class is going to be blessed objects of devotion. These are going to be your holy images, your medals, your rosary beads, your scapulars, your ashes on Ash Wednesday, your palms on Palm Sunday, and all the other stuff you usually think about.

The fourth class is going to be rubrics and prayers. Like the Sign of the Cross. Or bowing your head at Jesus’ name. And so on.

Sacramentals aren’t necessary for salvation, so if you don’t like “the sign of the cross” or if you don’t like “holy water” or if you don’t like “saying grace”, it’s not going to keep you out of heaven. But… because, by their nature, sacramentals increase devotion and turn people’s thoughts to holy things— if others use sacramentals, they’re not paying attention to the thing, but to the God behind it all.

Just like with the handkerchiefs, the handkerchief wasn’t the point.

 

[Theo520]

Does the Catholic Church really teach that works grant us salvation?

This is an area I puzzled over.

I think Catholics come at the same faith/works issue, but from opposite sides.

Someone with Christ in their life (saved) will bear good fruit, they will do good works. I don’t believe this end state is disputed between Catholics and Protestants.

I think the issues stem from people still on their journey to the above.

Evangelicals view it as a light switch either on or off. However, plenty of evangelicals claim they are saved but don’t produce the fruits of someone with Christ always guiding their actions. A Protestant would say that person wasn’t truly saved - their light switch was still ‘off’.

I think Catholics view it more as a light with a dimmer switch, where the degree of light shows itself in your works. It helps to emphasize doing good works because the actions themselves will open someone up to receiving the Holy Spirit in their lives. So good works don’t make an evil person “saved” but they can help move an impure heart in that direction, even if their motives are impure.

I prefer the Catholic view because it better represents my daily struggles in living a Christ Like life. My bulb is not always running at full power even though I’ve uttered the evangelical prayer declaring Christ as my savior.

 

[Sbee0]

At a Catholic church - you will tend to see many types of people, many races, many different backgrounds and many different walks of life. Which to me makes a lot of sense, as the word “Catholic” means “universal”.

I wonder if the reputation of “fellowship” in Protestant circles stems from the very nature of a Protestant denomination -I think it’s more likely you’ll find in one Protestant denomination much more homogeneity in backgrounds, life, race, and a sense of identity, with usually the Pastor as the center of it. Any difference in that identity and then you’re looking at a different Protestant denomination.

 

[midori]

I don’t mean to be offensive, but out of the large number of various churches I’ve been to, Catholics ranked as the worst in terms of fellowship. I’m one of those people who desperately rely on encouragement and accountability in my life as I do my best to live in accordance with the truth of the gospel, and no Catholic parish I’ve been to has even attempted to do so. This is a major issue for me.

Ultimately, I think a lot of Catholics are just there for the Sacraments. They go to Church for the Eucharist. They go to Church for Confession. They go to Church for Adoration. We’ve all been brought up not to talk or socialize before Mass— and after Mass, unless your parish offers coffee and doughnuts afterwards, you stick around to pray a little longer, and most of the congregation has dispersed into the parking lot by the time you’re done. Some people will chat outside the door, but most people are herding their kids, thinking about breakfast, thinking about the rest of their day, and not really thinking about all the other people who had joined them in public communal worship for the last hour.

Plus, there’s the whole level of embarrassment of “I-know-your-face-because-I’ve-sat-next-to-you-for-10-years-but-I-have-no-clue-who-you-are.”

Most of the socialization comes from participation outside of Mass. Whether it’s volunteering to teach religious ed, or volunteering to participate in Bible Study, or Lector, or Communion to the Sick, or serve on Altar Society, or soup kitchen, or Choir, or get your kids to be Altar Servers, or whatever… the details depending on the size of your parish. But when you become an active parishioner, that’s when people start paying attention to you. (“Who can we get help make this thing happen… Oh! Unique_name is reliable!”)

We don’t really do a lot of stuff just for the sake of hanging out in community together, in the same way that my MIL’s Baptist church does pot-luck dinner every week. But if you want community, the best way to do it is to find something that needs doing… and you achieve community in the process of serving others in a particular way.

 

[1ke]

These are not in order of importance, just as they pop into my head.

For future reference, the CAF forums ask that we stick to one topic per thread. So each of these 6 should really be its own thread. This keeps discussions on topic and less confusing.

 

[1ke]

Why are priests called “Father” when Christ said to call no one on Earth Father, as we have one Father in heaven? The answer I’ve always gotten for this was something along the lines of, “Well Jesus also said not to call anyone Teacher or Rabbi, and people do that, so obviously there was more to it than that.” Okay, so because we also call people Teacher that means it’s okay?

It’s hyperbole. Jesus is making a point about the spirit of superiority and empty authority contrasted with servant authority of the disciples. He’s speaking to the disciples, not the people in general. And, it’s not literal. We see this because he says don’t call anyone father, rabbi, or master, yet elsewhere in the NT we see these titles being used, including FATHER: “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel ” (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

The use of papa (Latin) to refer to bishops goes back to the Bible (as Paul calls himself Father). It eventually expanded to encompass priests as well as bishops.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

So little time. So many questions.
You speak as being a former Catholic, but you seem so knowledgeless when it comes to Catholic doctrine.
I do mean to sound harsh, but some of your questions sound as if you have made up your mind not to rejoin the Catholic Church.
I will let others on this forum answer your questions as best they can.
But if you truly want to comeback to the Church, you should make an appointment to speak to a Priest.
The Catholic Church is wonderful. There is a reason for all that we do. It is truly amazing. It is God’s one true church.
My prayers are with you today.

 

[1ke]

I have heard many answers for why the church teaches that Mary was without sin, and I’ve looked it up in depth on other Catholic apologetics websites. I just don’t buy it. I do believe that she was graced and blessed more than any other human on Earth, and quite possibly she sinned less than any other person on Earth save Christ, but I don’t buy that she was sinless. Other than that, I love Mary. Jesus loves His mom, so do I. Can this be reconciled?

well it’s basically a binary proposition- -she is or isn’t. So, strictly speaking, no that can’t be reconciled. What you are called to is assent, whether you understand it or not. You say you’ve studied it, but i think you should start a thread of the immaculate conception, and take time to explain what your objections are so that they might be addressed adequately.

I don’t mean to be offensive, but out of the large number of various churches I’ve been to, Catholics ranked as the worst in terms of fellowship.

This is a subjective opinion. Since you’ve not been to every Catholic Church in the world, what it represents is your experience with specific Catholic churches. I grew up Episcopalian, and went to Baptist, Episcopal, and Catholic churches in college and as a young adult. I experienced a wide variety of “fellowship” and “non-fellowship”/cliques in all places I attended.

I’m one of those people who desperately rely on encouragement and accountability in my life as I do my best to live in accordance with the truth of the gospel, and no Catholic parish I’ve been to has even attempted to do so. This is a major issue for me.

I’ve found wonderful friends, encouraging people, spiritual partners, and deep fellowship in the Catholic Church. So, our experiences are not the same. It takes time to build this sort of friendship. The Knights of Columbus, a rosary or prayer group, legion of Mary, etc, are all places you can find this sort of spiritual accompaniment.

 

[1ke]

I’m not high church. I’ve been to Catholic churches, Presbyterian churches, non-denominational churches, you name it. I am just not a “smells and bells” type. I’m assuming that this is a minor one, and as I’ve reasoned out on my own, if the Church is the true Church, it doesn’t matter whether I’m high church or not. I guess this was more of just a ramble than a question.

You may not be “high church” because you lack a good understanding of and familiarity with liturgical worship and have been in a non-denominational setting for quite some time. I think understanding the biblical foundation and the traditional roots of liturgical worship can impact one’s view of liturgical worship.

Can someone explain to this cynic how sacramentals actually pass on blessings? How holy water actually makes things Holy? Because my understanding is that holiness is walking in accordance with the truth of God and who He is and what He says, and water just doesn’t do those things.

Through the action of the Holy Spirit.

 

[1ke]

Why do we need to confess to a priest? During the time I’ve been a Protestant, I’ve been joyfully confessing my sins to God. Wouldn’t a Catholic say that, were I to return to the Church, I’d need to go and confess it all over to a priest? Or am I mistaken here? If the former is correct, why? Did God not forgive me when I came to Him in the name of Jesus and asked for forgiveness?

Catholics too can confess directly to God. But we still have need of sacramental confession. Because, it was established by God-- who’s sins you retain are retained, who sins you forgive are forgiven.

 

[midori]

Q2-- So, if Adam and Eve were born without sin, but they Fell, and took the rest of Humanity down with them— do you think that God was incapable of preserving at least one person from the effects of that Fall? And if he was going to preserve at least one person from the effects of the Fall, why not the one he had prepared to be his Mother?

What is Sin? Sin is what separates us from God. Jesus only spent three years in public ministry. But he spent 9 months inside Mary-- as a human tabernacle-- and spent another 30 years in her company. She was his first and best disciple. Her entire role is leading people to Christ… but how could she herself accomplish this task if she herself was not perfectly united to him in every way?

Obviously, Judas is one example of someone who, despite three years in Jesus’ company, still didn’t get it. The priests and scribes are an example of someone who never recognized Jesus for what he was, despite coexisting with him. Jesus was definitely surrounded by the imperfection of the Apostles!

She’s had the title of Achrantos (spotless, all-pure) since, what, the 5th c? (aka the 400’s.) In the 300’s, she was referred to as Prokathartheisa (pre-purified). She gets equated with Eve before the fall and is always held up as an example of holiness.

On the other hand, you have some great medieval saints who had trouble with the concept as well. St. Bernard was, like, “How can there be absence of sin where there’s concupiscence?” and St. Thomas Aquinas was, like, “Well, I think Mary contracted original sin, but got cured before she was born.”

So there was definitely a lot of dialogue and debate as to what had happened. Eventually, it was generally agreed that being preserved from original sin did not remove her from needing Christ’s grace, but rather, she had been granted a more perfect form of redemption due to her special role in salvation history. People didn’t like to gainsay Aquinas and/or thereby get on the wrong socio-political side of the Dominicans, though, so it took a few more centuries before the dogma was defined.

All that said— I have some Orthodox friends who generally look upon it as going overboard. I don’t know whether that’s their personal belief, or whether it’s their doctrine in the absence of defining dogma.

So, yeah. It’s been something people have struggled to logic their way around for a centuries. Some people are okay with the concept of Mary’s redemption having happened in a better, more perfect way than pretty much everyone else in history, because she had a different role to play that no one else has ever duplicated. Other people have trouble getting past her humanity and the limits that they know naturally come along with it. But ultimately, neither my belief nor anyone else’s disbelief is going to change whatever God had chosen to do 2,000 years ago.

But if right now, all you have is love for her because Jesus loved her first-- that’s a good place to start.

 

[Wesrock]

Welcome!

1. Why are priests called “Father” when Christ said to call no one on Earth Father, as we have one Father in heaven? The answer I’ve always gotten for this was something along the lines of, “Well Jesus also said not to call anyone Teacher or Rabbi, and people do that, so obviously there was more to it than that.” Okay, so because we also call people Teacher that means it’s okay?

Jesus uses hyperbole a lot in scriptures. He admonishes us to cut off hands and pluck out eyes in a few places. Jesus is stressing God’s personal connection to us. Certainly I still call my own dad “father.” If we truly take Jesus’ words in their most plain sense then this would be forbidden. No calling my father dad, or pops, or papa, or any such term.

Saint Paul likens himself to a father in 1 Corinthians 4 when he wrote, " I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you." Priests are spiritual fathers to us, and have been considered so since the ancient Church, and they operate in their ministry by Christ’s commission.

1. I have heard many answers for why the church teaches that Mary was without sin, and I’ve looked it up in depth on other Catholic apologetics websites. I just don’t buy it. I do believe that she was graced and blessed more than any other human on Earth, and quite possibly she sinned less than any other person on Earth save Christ, but I don’t buy that she was sinless. Other than that, I love Mary. Jesus loves His mom, so do I. Can this be reconciled?

Mary’s sinlessness is the tradition we’ve received from the ancient Church. But to put it another way, Mary was a tabernacle for God’s presence in a fuller way than the Temple or Holy of Holies ever was. And we know how much emphasis God gave his people on not defiling where his presence dwelled, and on keeping and remaking these areas ritually clean. If they weren’t would that have been an actual barrier to God in his omnipotence? No, but it was fitting that they do so. I don’t think we appreciate, as desensitized to the Incarnation as we are today, that God became flesh, that he took that flesh from Mary, and that he dwelt within her and was nurtured by her. It is fitting that she, who God dealt within, was without sin, by the power of God. And this isn’t even getting into a word study of kecharitomene (the angel’s address for her).

 

[Wesrock]

Edited +#6
Why do we need to confess to a priest? During the time I’ve been a Protestant, I’ve been joyfully confessing my sins to God. Wouldn’t a Catholic say that, were I to return to the Church, I’d need to go and confess it all over to a priest? Or am I mistaken here? If the former is correct, why? Did God not forgive me when I came to Him in the name of Jesus and asked for forgiveness?

We’re very individualistic in today’s world, but we are not islands, we the Church are together one body in Christ. When we sin, we offend Christ ts head and also his body. Confession is, though private, also communal, in that we reconcile both with God and with his Church. Confession is also among the most ancient practices of the Church, even if the way its executed has changed. We even see the apostles commissioned to forgive sins themselves, not just to tell people to pray to God directly (not that we shouldn’t, but that’s not everything). In the OT we also see the Israelites go to priests for assistance with atonement, Confession is the extension of that, what that foreshadowed. This isn’t because God’s power is limited, it’s because it’s what God has ordained for us. As Catholics we understand that there are extraordinary situations and a person may not be able to see a priest and that God isn’t bound to act only in the sacraments, but this is the normative way given to the Church by Christ to the Apostles.

 

[Wesrock]

When you see people arguing about Catholics and faith VS works, it is often very “surface” level and doesn’t get down to the nitty gritty of the issue.

Catholics understand that no good work is done without God first acting to move us to do so. The difference with most protestants is our understanding in what goes on in a man in response to God’s action. Catholics believe God enables our free will such that it can do good. Without God it is absolutely, 100% impossible. But God does not move us to good works like puppets. He leaves the door open for our free response. When we do good it’s because we choose to do so, but we can only make that choice because God enables us to be able to. But God leaves the door open for us to reject his grace. Since God leaves the door open for our choice to cooperate or not we can earn merit. But this would be impossible without God moving us to be able to cooperate in the first place.

 

[Unique_name]

I am grateful for all the replies I have gotten. I think it presumptuous to say that I’ve already made up my mind to not be Catholic when I said that the reason I came here was to find answers, but it’s a public forum on the internet. What are you going to do? (Not to mention, Catholic doctrine would say I’m still Catholic, no?)

I hope to answer individual questions soon, but I have children and will simply have to answer as I have time. I am grateful for all the information I have received and my new food for thought.

 

[Unique_name]

Just one quick note, that when I brought up the faith vs works question, I was bringing that up as an example of a question that non-Catholics have asked me what the true doctrine was, not that I struggled with the concept. Funnily enough, that topic is the one I have the least issues with and that other Protestants would consider me a heretic to agree with.