Questions from my Prot dad

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My dad said that Catholicism is a cult because it “controls you salvation.” I didn’t know how to argue that point, so I just asked if he got his definition of “cult” from the Bible. I didn’t understand his answer, but whatever it meant, my question didn’t stun him. By “control salvation,” he refers to excommunication. He believes that one’s relationship with Jesus is just between one’s self and Jesus, therefore the Catholic Church gets in the way and has no legitimate authority.

He believes that Constantine founded the church. How do I prove that he didn’t using a non-Catholic source? I could have put him on the defensive asking him to prove it, but telling a fundie to “prove it” is like telling a mother “kill you child.” The response is never positive.
 
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Well, it’s hard to prove it from non-Catholic sources since very few sources survive from that period. However, we have several examples of the word “Catholic” being used in reference to the followers of Christ in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. The word is used in a way that indicates that the reader would be familiar with it as a reference. These writings are from the first / second century, long before Constantine was even born, so that’s pretty good evidence.

As for the part about controlling salvation, that’s nonsense. If a person reaches the point of being excommunicated, they’ve already sinned in such a way as to be cut off from God entirely. Excommunication wasn’t just used willy-nilly, it was saved for extreme heretics. There were a handful of instances in which it was used inappropriately, but for the most part, someone who was excommunicated was already well on their way to Hell.

Excommunication also isn’t a permanent state. It’s used to try to impress upon the ex-communicant the gravity of their sin. The goal of excommunication isn’t to cut someone off from the sacraments, its to bring them to repentance so that they can get back to receiving them worthily.

A person’s relationship with Jesus is personal to an extent, but Scripture also clearly shows that it is meant to be a public profession. It’s not just between you and God, it’s between you, the greater Christian community, and God. This concept of a “me and Jesus” religion is completely foreign to the history of Christianity, including Protestants. It has developed over the last two-hundred years or so predominately as a result of the individualistic tone American and, to a lesser extent, European culture has taken. When the culture places the emphasis on the individual it is not surprising that people would take the same approach to religion. However, this contradicts the rest of Christian history, which has always placed a greater emphasis on the communal and societal aspects of faith.

As for the “prove it” demand, perhaps word it a little bit… nicer… Instead of saying prove it, say that you’re interested in his position, and wondered if he had any historical documentation to support his claim. None exists, so in his efforts to “prove it,” he might start to see the error of it.
 
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“Scripture also clearly shows that it is meant to be a public profession.”

Show it, and show how it can be clearly demonstrated from the text that this is so. Show me writings from Protestant writers that prove that this way of thinking is not the traditional way of thinking.
 
It has always been a public profession. The NT is the culmination and fulfillment of the old. In the OT, while individual did sin, their sins impacted the society as a whole. When individuals sinned, their entire families suffered for it. When a handful of the Israelites sinned, God sent snakes among them who bit people regardless of their role in the actual sinning. In the NT, we see the writers talk about how we need not lead others into sin, or given them reason to be scandalized. (Acts 15:29) This indicates that, far from being merely personal, our actions, sin or otherwise, has an impact on the greater society of Christians.

As for teh writings of Protestant scholars, I am unable to give you specific verses. This topic has come up before on Catholic Answers live, so I’ve heard the answers before, but do not have a good enough memory to relate specifics. Sorry.
 
Then your Dad is saying that St. Paul was wrong to tell the church in Corinth “Let he who has done this be removed from among you,” and “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”
 
Matthew 18:18-22King James Version (KJV)
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peace
 
Protestantism is 500 years old, whereas authentic Christianity within the Church JESUS built, is 2000 years old…

It was not always legal to practice Christianity, but Constantine legalized it. Look it up in any encyclopedia.
 
yawnernonner said:
I could have put him on the defensive asking him to prove it, but telling a fundie to “prove it” is like telling a mother “kill you child.” The response is never positive.
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Fact.

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You mean, like Hal Lindsey?

Or are you talking about the catechism that Luther wrote?

It might depend on the denomination you’re referring to, since Protestantism is all over the place with regard to what it does and does not believe.
 
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A cult that people happily went along with across Christendom for thousands of years, before Luther suddenly decided he knew better than everyone else?

Hm. Sounds more like Luciferan ego to me.

I wonder if Protestants follow the logical conclusion of this idea. That essentially the system that the apostles and church fathers created on their behalf after Jesus left, were somehow all idiots who knew less about what Jesus thought and taught than they do?

Oh please. Protestantism is just one man’s excuse to do whatever he wanted because he didn’t like rules that had stood for thousands of years. Nothing else.
 
He made the accusation, so obviously he has the proof, so the burden of proof is on him. Of course, what he said isn’t true, but some people just take second hand gossip as fact.
 
yawnernonner said:
My dad said that Catholicism is a cult because it “controls you salvation.” I didn’t know how to argue that point, so I just asked if he got his definition of “cult” from the Bible. I didn’t understand his answer, but whatever it meant, my question didn’t stun him. By “control salvation,” he refers to excommunication. He believes that one’s relationship with Jesus is just between one’s self and Jesus, therefore the Catholic Church gets in the way and has no legitimate authority.

He believes that Constantine founded the church. How do I prove that he didn’t using a non-Catholic source? I could have put him on the defensive asking him to prove it, but telling a fundie to “prove it” is like telling a mother “kill you child.” The response is never positive.
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Well, this sounds like you’re arguing? Is that right?

I think what you ought to do is figure out how you can have this discussion without fighting.

Now, let’s see. Would it be more beneficial, if you started discussing this through email or text? You could have a discussion kind of like some people play chess.

So, you could ask him a question through email. LIke, “Hey Dad, where does the Bible say anything about Sola Scriptura?”

Then wait for him to answer. Doing it that way, also forces both of you to study before you make your responses. You can wait a couple of days and make sure your wording isn’t inflammatory.

That’s my two cents.
 
So he changed the definition of cult to fit his case, then made an accusation against Church that is not exactly true (though of course, a hand cut off from the body dies, I believe is similar to how St Paul put it), then made a wildly inaccurate historical claim without evidence.

Show him the Church fathers talking about the Catholic Church.
 
Give me a quick rundown on quotations and their dates. Don’t use examples where the work “catholikos” is used.
 
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Why I believe in Apostolic Succession Apologetics
(Sorry for the obnoxious length of this) Authority is central to all other issues. Even when we, as reasonable men with our wills fully desiring to know God’s truth and who have turned our lives over to Jesus’ care, study scripture as well as we are able, we come to mutually exclusive conclusions about what it means. Because of the effects of original sin, our wills are weakened and our intellects are darkened. We are easily deceiv…
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yawnernonner said:
My dad said that Catholicism is a cult because it “controls you salvation.”
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The Catholic Church gives us tools the tools we need to do as Paul says - "Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling."

When I was Protestant, I puzzled over there not being a real answer to the question, “How do you grow in Holiness?” There was only more church meetings, not just Sunday but also Sunday and Wednesday nights, if offered, and of course the call to serve the local church was relentless [and a little overwhelming for me at the time, serving as a teacher with a full load in a public school, and coming home to handle all the cooking, shopping, cleaning, dishes, laundry by myself]. And also, most important, there was daily Bible reading and Bible meetings and Bible conferences, and lots of shiny new books on every subject of how to live scripture-based in every circumstance, and conferences led by the authors. It still left me wondering. Bible Study was wonderful, but it did not seen enough to create a completely changed life and heart.

But Jesus founded a Church, not a book, and through the Church He gave us the Sacraments (as well as the Book!). And the Sacraments are God’s Ordinary way of pouring down Extraordinary Graces. And its Graces from Heaven that we need to grow in holiness. The great fount of these is found only in the Catholic Church.

Not to mention, we also need extraordinary graces to to actually be able to be perfect, as our Father in Heaven is. God actually asks us in Scripture to be PERFECT! How can God ask us this?! Only because He provides for the miraculous graces for us to get there.

God gives great graces other ways; He is not limited. But to give them through the Sacraments of the Church that He founded, and promised the Holy Spirit to be with until the end of time, is the ordinary way.

The proof that this is the absolutely ordinary way God pours out graces is in the very lives of the Saints, which are so available for anyone to read about. So many Saints, who became holy and perfect, in so many different and unique ways. There is nothing near like it to compare on earth for all time!

The Saints are the great witness of the Church. There is plenty bad to be found, but to judge the Church by that is dishonest. We don’t judge Jesus by the actions and ways of His beloved apostle, Judas Iscariot. So also is the Church not be judged by its weeds and tares. The right and just way to judge the Church is by looking at the people who actually live in obedience to Her teachings.
 
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yawnernonner said:
Give me a quick rundown on quotations and their dates. Don’t use examples where the work “catholikos” is used.
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Getting kind of bossy, ain’t ya?

Apparently, you have an internet connection. Have you ever used Google?
 
Also realize that your Dad is getting his arguments against Catholicism from Protestant protesters who are passing on false witness against Jesus’ Church. Of course they believed the false witness handed to them, and therefore, most who pass it on are just trying to “help” others. But it is in fact irresponsible to pass on detractions about what they must admit are attacks against members of the Body of Christ, without honestly checking out the facts. Then of course, since they hear it from those they trust, and from more than one trusted source, they think it must be true… so there is an explanation for their bad actions. But asking Protestants to explain what Catholicism is is like asking Muslims to explain what Christianity is. So its more honest to actually ask a Catholic what Catholic is!

Also you should expect he will argue in the usual way Protestants argue against Catholic - they don’t acknowledge your truths (but you say them anyway!) and will hit you with one falsehood (against Catholicism) after another. Its like they think your puny truth is not important in the faced of SO MANY different accusations they have heard of against Catholicism.

But the fact is that all those accusations are false - either outright, or a twist of some truth that makes it false. Every single one can be addressed. The truth of the Church will shine beautifully in every case. So sometimes you have to control the pace of the arguments. It takes no time at all to make a false statement, but it takes a LOT more time to refute the lie. This is true not only in Catholic apologetics, but most other situations of accusations as well. So it will likely be necessary for you to control the pace of the arguing, to one that is do-able for you, since you have the hard part - the Defense.
 
Ask him where Jesus taught bible alone. Then show him where man did. The salient point then is: Who saves you?
 
yawnernonner said:
My dad said that Catholicism is a cult because it “controls you salvation.” I didn’t know how to argue that point, so I just asked if he got his definition of “cult” from the Bible.
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Please take what I am about to say as an act of Love and not an act of ego.

In my opinion if you need to come here and ask this question without at least saying I tried this or that or I just need a little help here. That tells me that you are not deep enough and strong enough into the Catholic faith to be having this discussion with your dad.

I say this because until you have a firm grasp on Catholic teaching. I fear you may start to buy into the lies he has been taught. Anyone can interpret the Bible to say whatever they want it to say.

I would put your dad on the shelf for a while and pull a few books off that shelf to strengthen your faith. There is absolutely nothing you will be able to say to convince you dad. It’s a very said situation you are in. Believe me I know I am in the same position with my son. Which makes it even worse because he has forgotten what it means to honor thy father and mother.

Like I was saying convincing your father of the truth is not your job. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

As you said…
yawnernonner said:
I could have put him on the defensive asking him to prove it, but telling a fundie to “prove it” is like telling a mother “kill you child.” The response is never positive.
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Your father has blindly accepted every lie told to him. He will not be willing to admit to you this fact, therefor he will never listen to anything you say.

I would recommend concentrating on you first. Come here daily. Participate in the discussions. Ask a lot of questions that you want to know the answer to. Not because you want to go argue with someone.

If you like to read. Do so daily.

I like to listen to podcasts. I never miss an episode of Catholic Answers Live. Called to Communion and Open Line Monday.

If you are in your twenties or thirties maybe look up the Catholic Man Show. I listened to them for a while, but had to stop. I was getting jealous that I wasn’t as knowledgeable as they are in the faith when I was in my 20’s.

At this point you need to put yourself first. When the time comes that you can answer these questions on the fly then you can start that conversation with your father.

God Bless

PS. If you are still living under your fathers roof or dependent on him, in my opinion this conversation with your father is really toeing the line of not honoring your father and mother
 
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