Questions to Muslims not born in the U.S.

[InSearchofGrace]

RECAP

The article I posted brings home the point that some Muslims are capable of self-examination and see the truth about Christian persecution in Muslim countries.

We discussed good Qu’ran verses and hadiths, not just the negative ones, on this thread.

Elwill, I was hoping to at least enlighten you, not for you to turn your back on Islam or, heavens, to convert you to Christianity!

But in case, you have a life changing moment or decision, and you want in, know that there’s a lot of room for you in the Christian room!

Just remove those scales from your eyes,

You made your points and I made mine with the question: Did Muhammad leave a theology based on intolerance and injustice to Christians.

It was nice talking with you, Elwill.

Thank you and good-bye.

 

[elwill]

InSearchofGrace , i want to thank you for your discussion
i have to confess that it was really very enlightenment to me

it’s very good to know how the others view you , and how far they knows about you

i understand your position very well , and i’m sure that you were sincere in your discussion
if i were in your position , lives somewhere in the world and read about how christians lives in egypt , i could say exactly the same as you that christians livs in hell with intolerant treatment .

the reasons of existing this gap in our discussion is that i’m talking about the reality of life i lives within while you base your conclusions in media alone

the media may inform some facts then introduce it was the norm , that’s exatly what i’m traying to defend , it’s not the norm

thank you again and good bye

 

[seraphime2008]

everytime , when muslim find the enemy wage a wars against his country , it’s obligatory upon him to fight and defend his people and his country even if he dislike the wars

Hi Elwill,
I’m back. Sorry that I really took a long time to face you again with your on and on argument that going circle…
Anyway about your answer above: tell that to those Talibans in Afghan and the Iraqis who keep blowing their fellow Muslims, it seems that they are defending something too according to what they think is right version of Islam…!

the entire chapter is talking about Badr battle , this battle happened after the prophet traveled to madinah . and i’m not sure how the prophet was the one who humilated Qurish in the first place

 

[elwill]

Hi Elwill,
I’m back. Sorry that I really took a long time to face you again with your on and on argument that going circle…
Anyway about your answer above: tell that to those Talibans in Afghan and the Iraqis who keep blowing their fellow Muslims, it seems that they are defending something too according to what they think is right version of Islam…!

once i have a chance i will tell them
i hope they have the internet , if they accessed it , they will find that majority of muslims condemns the terrorism

Ok, how about this record of his life collected in the history of his life by one muslim hostorian:
Muhammad brought on the resentment of the local people by breaking with tradition and cursing other religions:
*
When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy. (Ibn Ishaq 167)*

Although asked to stop, Muhammad continued to stir up trouble by “condemning” the local religion, causing the Meccans great anxiety:

i’m not surprised that our prophet spoke against their idols or their relegion ! , this was the reaction of all prophets of God toward idols worshiping

but you said exactly in your post : " How do you know that the context is talking about persecution of Muslims while Muhammad himself had mocked and humiliated the Quraish"

did you meant by that question , that mohammed just disrepected their beliefs ?

• [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods (Ibn Ishaq 183).*

yes that is right
i thought that christians knows that it’s what the prophets do
do you know anything about abraham , or Noah peace be upon them all , thier people were idolators either , you know !

Not only was this an insult to the people and their traditions, but it also threatened the local economy, which depended on the annual pilgrimage. Still, they were so eager to live at peace, that they offered Muhammad money if he would stop stirring up trouble:

yes offcourse i completely agree with you , he threatened the local economy !
can you please discribe for me how did his teaching threatened the local economy ?

• The decided to send for Muhammad and to negotiate and argue with him… When he came and sat down with them, they explained that that they had sent for him in order that they could talk together. No Arab had ever treated his tribe as Muhammad had treated them, and they repeated the charges… If it was money he wanted, they would make him the richest of them all; if it was honor, he should be their prince; if it was sovereignty, they would make him king. (Ibn Ishaq 188)*

if he wans’t prophet , he should made this deal with them and leave his prophethood mission , right !

Further proof that the Meccans did not have a problem with Islam existing side-by-side with their own religion is found in the episode known as the Satanic Verses. According to Muslim historians, Muhammad briefly agreed to their demand to cease disparaging the local gods and recognize the rights of others to their religion:

• When [the Meccans] heard that, they rejoiced. What he had said about their gods pleased and delighted them, and they gave ear to him… When he came to the prostration and finished the chapter, he prostrated and the Muslims followed their prophet in it, having faith in what he brought them and obeying his command. Those mushrikūn of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque also prostrated on account of what they had heard him say about their gods. In the whole mosque there was no believer or kāfir who did not prostrate. (al-Tabari, the Tarikh Vol. 1)*

what is your point ?

The Meccans were clearly relieved that the unprecedented tension over religious beliefs was broken. They rejoiced by praying alongside the Muslims at the Kaaba. They accepted the Muslims once Muhammad accepted them.

Now tell us that it’s not Muhammad who instigated the humiliation and attack!

first of all , i don’t know what is your problem
i think that all prophets were sent by God , their people turned against them for the same reasons

may be if jesus either stopped to preach his beliefs , his people would prefer to live in peace with him either

 

[seraphime2008]

once i have a chance i will tell them
i hope they have the internet , if they accessed it , they will find that majority of muslims condemns the terrorism

Yeah I hope you get all the chance! Though majority condemns them, they don’t seem to do the right action of what you called jihad of defending the right thing to do, right? Why then the rest of Muslims try to proof by writing that jihad means struggling with evil power, but knowing your own fellow Muslims have done some damage defaming Muslims, most of you of peaceful Muslims would just sit down and just keep repeating the word that jihad calls for struggle, while you don’t do nothing?

i’m not surprised that our prophet spoke against their idols or their relegion ! , this was the reaction of all prophets of God toward idols worshiping

Not necessary, the prophets of the Jew dealt with many aspect of how people should treat the others, and not necessarily condemning the pagan, but if they have to deal with the pagan, it’s to condemn more of the behavior of the pagan of sacrificing their own child, aspect of their ritual of seeing the sexuality as an offer as well, and so on. But they live without problem with the Pagan, the Egyptian, the Babylonian etc.Even Jesus himself said in a parable that a man of no faith can even give a favor to somebody desperate of assistance, that would mean something that He didn’t condemn their disbelief but rather condemn those who profess to have a belief in God but do nothing good to their neighbor. Jesus also said: if you cannot give advice to somebody to repent for his sins or mistake or wrong view , treat them as just one people of no faith, means that just let him be because he’s ignorant! Never Jesus said that they should be condemned and treated badly!

did you meant by that question , that mohammed just disrepected their beliefs ?

Not only he disrespect his own fellow people, but instigated hate and dispute!

yes that is right
i thought that christians knows that it’s what the prophets do
do you know anything about abraham , or Noah peace be upon them all , thier people were idolators either , you know !

No, I don’t have the same view of what they preached toward their own people.You have a version of Koran of Muhammad just to maintain the power of himself. He didn’t know the message of the Bible! He thought that if he could maintain the view of a God who is willing to give the power to his prophet to kill his people, torture them if they didn’t believe him, he could easily get their hold!

You know Abraham didn’t even condemn his relatives who are still pagan. He even took daughters in law from among them! Noah was preaching toward the people of Ninive to repent from their sins, not for their disbelief, but he himself was annoyed that God gave mercy to those people!

yes offcourse i completely agree with you , he threatened the local economy !
can you please discribe for me how did his teaching threatened the local economy ?

Because he was discouraging people of many beliefs to come to Meccah to perform their worship to whatever they have faith in. Muhammad had first handedly preach intolerance, he was very successful in turning the tolerant SA into the most intolerant country in the world!

if he wans’t prophet , he should made this deal with them and leave his prophethood mission , right !

No…if he was a right prophet he should have seen that those people intention was mostly to have peace with him, not to buy him in the first place! He failed to see their mission but continue to feel that they all had to be subdued to him!

 

[seraphime2008]

what is your point ?

The point is exactly the same with the point of someone who at that time had sniffed that Muhammad had an agenda of getting the power,not that he’s a real prophet!! He was at that time even considered that Allah could have daughters!

first of all , i don’t know what is your problem
i think that all prophets were sent by God , their people turned against them for the same reasons

may be if jesus either stopped to preach his beliefs , his people would prefer to live in peace with him either

But Jesus said at the cross that His Father forgive all those people who put him, because they didn’t know what they had done was wrong! And those Jews who plotted to kill him were not polytheist as you know!

 

[seraphime2008]

resolve your problems with the nearst enemy first then gradually the farthest

Sounds that you want to change the Koran with a tone down version! How could fight then now suddenly mean resolve, that can only mean resolve with hardness!! I think the first Muslims had just shown what this verse really means, they fight the Persian first, then the Byzantine, then Europe, later on India and so on…!!

The life-story of the Prophet of Islam gives many instances of his kind, tolerant co-existence with non-Muslims. Some of his neighbors were non-Muslims and the Prophet would be generous towards them and exchange gifts. The Prophet of Islam would visit them when they fell sick and do business with them. There was a Jewish family he regularly gave charity to and the Muslims after his death maintained his charity towards them.

How come than that he preached that Islam should be the only religion exist in Arabia. We can see how true it is with SA! So ironic of what is told from Muslims to be exactly the opposite in reality!

When a Christian delegation from Ethiopian churches came to Medina, the Prophet opened up his mosque for them to stay in, hosted them generously, and personally served them meals. He said:
“They were generous to our companions, so I wish to be generous to them in person…”
…referring to the event when they provided asylum to a number of his companions after they fled persecution in Arabia and took asylum in Abyssinia.

In another instance, a Jewish man named Zayd bin Sana came to the Prophet of Islam to reclaim a debt. He **grabbed the Prophet by his robe and cloak, pulled the Prophet close to his face, and said, ‘Muhammad, are you not going to give me my due? You and your clan Banu Muttalib never pay debts on time!’ ** Umar, one of the companions of the Prophet, got agitated and said, ‘**Enemy of God, am I really hearing what you just said to God’s Prophet. I swear by the One who sent him with truth, if I were not afraid that he would blame me, I would have taken my sword and cut your head off!’ **The Prophet looked calmly at Umar and censured him gently:

“Umar, that is not what we needed to hear from you. You should have counseled me to pay my debts in time and asked him to seek repayment in a respectful manner. Now take him, repay him his debt from my money and give him an extra twenty measures of date.”

Abdullah ibn ‘Amr, a famous companion of the Prophet Muhammad, would regularly give charity to his neighbors. He would send his servant to take portions of meat on religious occasions to his Jewish neighbor. The surprised servant asked about Abdullah’s concern for his Jewish neighbor. Abdullah told him the saying of Prophet Muhammad:

“The angel Gabriel was so adamant in reminding me to be charitable with my neighbor that I thought he might make him my heir.

How could it happen ? How could we believe that this account is true when there’s no more Jew ever lives in SA anymore? And that all those Jew was and ever since treated as people to be mocked and regarded as dog and monkey according to your Koran and Hadits? Just keep on believing the man made image without the proof!

 

[seraphime2008]

You know Abraham didn’t even condemn his relatives who are still pagan. He even took daughters in law from among them! Noah was preaching toward the people of Ninive to repent from their sins, not for their disbelief, but he himself was annoyed that God gave mercy to those people!
!

I’m sorry, I was making a wrong connection between Noah and Jonah. Noah according to the bible was chosen to be saved with his family because he was the only good and faithful person whom God can find at that moment while all people were to be found despicable due to their evil deed. Noah would draw an ancestry line of the later population of men and women. In the account God had been told to regret the annihilation of almost the entire population of men, and made a promise that He would never done such thing again.

 

[elwill]

Yeah I hope you get all the chance! Though majority condemns them, they don’t seem to do the right action of what you called jihad of defending the right thing to do, right? Why then the rest of Muslims try to proof by writing that jihad means struggling with evil power, but knowing your own fellow Muslims have done some damage defaming Muslims, most of you of peaceful Muslims would just sit down and just keep repeating the word that jihad calls for struggle, while you don’t do nothing?

give me an advice , what should we do with this problem as a muslims ?

Not necessary, the prophets of the Jew dealt with many aspect of how people should treat the others, and not necessarily condemning the pagan, but if they have to deal with the pagan, it’s to condemn more of the behavior of the pagan of sacrificing their own child, aspect of their ritual of seeing the sexuality as an offer as well, and so on. But they live without problem with the Pagan, the Egyptian, the Babylonian etc.Even Jesus himself said in a parable that a man of no faith can even give a favor to somebody desperate of assistance, that would mean something that He didn’t condemn their disbelief but rather condemn those who profess to have a belief in God but do nothing good to their neighbor. Jesus also said: if you cannot give advice to somebody to repent for his sins or mistake or wrong view , treat them as just one people of no faith, means that just let him be because he’s ignorant! Never Jesus said that they should be condemned and treated badly!

this vew in bold is perfect to start from it
inform me how mohammed (pbuh) condemned his people beliefs exactly ?

Not only he disrespect his own fellow people, but instigated hate and dispute!

give me example in details

No, I don’t have the same view of what they preached toward their own people.You have a version of Koran of Muhammad just to maintain the power of himself. He didn’t know the message of the Bible! He thought that if he could maintain the view of a God who is willing to give the power to his prophet to kill his people, torture them if they didn’t believe him, he could easily get their hold!

You know Abraham didn’t even condemn his relatives who are still pagan. He even took daughters in law from among them! Noah was preaching toward the people of Ninive to repent from their sins, not for their disbelief, but he himself was annoyed that God gave mercy to those people!

it’s hte first time for me to know that prophets didn’t condemns the beliefs of pagans ( according to chritianity) , may be i have to ensure from that

Because he was discouraging people of many beliefs to come to Meccah to perform their worship to whatever they have faith in. Muhammad had first handedly preach intolerance, he was very successful in turning the tolerant SA into the most intolerant country in the world!

what i know is completly the opposite , do you know somthing about that era before islam regarding to violence ?

No…if he was a right prophet he should have seen that those people intention was mostly to have peace with him, not to buy him in the first place! He failed to see their mission but continue to feel that they all had to be subdued to him!

so if he was real prophet , he should to leave his mission and stop preach the massage to live in peace with his people ?
is that what the prophets should do in your view ?

seraphime2008 , i think that i will trying to learn from you your knowledge , and see how reliable it is , i hope you have no problem with that

 

[seraphime2008]

give me an advice , what should we do with this problem as a muslims ?

I think there are many instances you can use,perhaps one instance is admitting that your country has been not acting in just towards the Coptics, especially regarding their rights. They should have the same rights as the Muslims, to be able to repair the church and to be able to accept the converts from Muslims…Could you also go as far as accepting the rights of the Jew to live in their own country? And perhaps go as far as defending anybody who has his/her rights of voicing the truth whoever and whatever his/her background is?

I think there are many instances Muslims have to have a bigger heart accepting that they indeed have to see that there are many verses of violence in Koran.

this vew in bold is perfect to start from it
inform me how mohammed (pbuh) condemned his people beliefs exactly ?

 

[elwill]

I think there are many instances you can use,perhaps one instance is admitting that your country has been not acting in just towards the Coptics, especially regarding their rights. They should have the same rights as the Muslims, to be able to repair the church and to be able to accept the converts from Muslims…Could you also go as far as accepting the rights of the Jew to live in their own country? And perhaps go as far as defending anybody who has his/her rights of voicing the truth whoever and whatever his/her background is?

 

[seraphime2008]

seraphime2008;6677518:

thank you seraphime2008

but let me firstly reminds you with the context of our discussion , we was talking about taliban and terrorism
you said :
"Anyway about your answer above: tell that to **those Talibans in Afghan and the Iraqis who keep blowing their fellow Muslims, **

it seems that they are defending something too according to what they think is right version of Islam…!"

your objection against muslims is that ( from your own words ) :

“Though majority condemns them, they don’t seem to do the right action of what you called jihad of defending the right thing to do, right? Why then the rest of Muslims try to proof by writing that jihad means struggling with evil power, but knowing your own fellow Muslims have done some damage defaming Muslims, most of you of peaceful Muslims would just sit down and just keep repeating the word that jihad calls for struggle, while you don’t do nothing?”

i asked you an advice to tell us the right action which muslims should to do if condemnation of such acts to be islamic isn’t enough
any suggestions ?

Well…so it means that you’re not willing to see that the rest of the problems in the world of Islam has to do with its relationship with the “other people”, not just amongst Muslims that they indeed had proven that they also called each other disbeliever…:shrug:Indeed I place the importance of your struggle to face that problems since I’m part of the “other people”

And anyway, about those talibans and Iraqis, I see it as problems within Islamic territories, so you better answer it yourself. The problem lies in your own area! Why is it difficult, Islamic teaching say it’s ok to the extend of sacrificing your own wealth and even life,and whatever needed to defend Islam! The SA and most Arab countries are well known to be rich with oil and so on…why is it difficult to help those fellow Muslims? Perhaps the easiest thing to do in such countries is just made escape black goats on someone else, so they can enjoy their luxurious living of the wealth of the black gold!

wow , is that your answer for this simple question
inform me how mohammed (pbuh) condemned his people beliefs exactly ?

You inform me please, you know it better ? Why mad? I was only presenting all the context of the people of the book? You didn’t understand it before apparantly…

oh ,yes . i find nothing
i asking you to inform me about historical events to back up your openion

I think I have informed you all the narration taken from the Shirah and your hadits, many instances before…now you seem to forget or anything?

so you wanna to say that the prophets did condemned paganism beliefs but without forcing them to believe in other relegion ?

I was saying that all the prophets from the Bible were all dealing with the nation of Israel, the nation that had experienced and been saved by God. They have a covenant with God to stay faithful, so they were not to be involved in paganism, though most of their neighbors were pagan. They were to be the first example of people of belief, molded by God himself, so that all the other nation can see from them how their faith had saved them! No forcing, I’m sorry!

i didn’t know that arabia and almost of all nations of arab are the most intolerant countries now !
can you show me statistics because i want to see where can we see israil in the list
or is the statistics in your own head
i just found out that you are not objective atall , you are very biased , and most of your claims are not more than guessing , you don’t have real knowledge about islam nor it’s history

Well, if you don’t want to open your eyes to all the reports saying that there’s no such thing like “religious freedom” in such countries! And tell me in SA, is there any church built? Is there any Jew live there? Is there any Jew ever accepted as normal same human being in arab countries?
I think the first OP here had already shown you all the reports telling “no repairing” of the church, no government position in Arab countries for non-Muslim, no convert at all, so why you’re now closing your eyes on those reports? Well…yeah, I’m not objective, since a muslim here are mad that he won’t believe whatever reports have been given…Why does it have to do with Israel? You don’t have to get the excuses just because someone else you accuse of doing something bad, you’re given the free ticket to do the same?

you dosn’t address my qurstions , no one mentioned any force or killing , are you lost the chain of our argument ? do you forgot what event we are talking about here ? if you have no answers to my questions then it’s okey , i allready knows that

Well, as far as I remember, I have presented stories that Muhammad didn’t kill all the Meccan on the condition that they accept him as prophet and the religion should be for Allah only, that is Islam, right? I think he also beheaded the idols of the pagans of the Meccan, right? All those idols that represented their tradition and their belief to convert to something alien like Islam? And that Muhammad killed at least 10 Meccan after his victory (report from your hadits), just because they mocked him out of their disbelief…

I think I don’t miss the chain of argument…you just find it difficult to see that I jump into the right conclusion…

 

[schaick]

In Islam there is a concept called “the abrogating and abrogated verses” which means the instructions for some verses of Quran were replaced by others throughout the 23 years of Quranic revelation.

Yes so whenever a Muslim says:

in chapter 60 from quran

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

You have to take it knowing the order of the Chapters. Thje Quran is not written out in Chronological order.

It is a problem with Islam after the peaceful verses allah sent** better verses **at a later date: Chapter 9 is the second to last Chapter written by Mohammad.

9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

[elwill]

elwill;6677844:

And anyway, about those talibans and Iraqis,** I see it as problems within Islamic territories, so you better answer it yourself**

. The problem lies in your own area! Why is it difficult, Islamic teaching say it’s ok to the extend of sacrificing your own wealth and even life,and whatever needed to defend Islam! The SA and most Arab countries are well known to be rich with oil and so on…why is it difficult to help those fellow Muslims? Perhaps the easiest thing to do in such countries is just made escape black goats on someone else, so they can enjoy their luxurious living of the wealth of the black gold!

thank you , this is the answer i was waiting
i’m sorry , i really don’t know what should i do if some muslims in someplace in the world killed innocents in the name of islam , all what i can do is condemn their acts to be islamic

You inform me please, you know it better ? Why mad? I was only presenting all the context of the people of the book? You didn’t understand it before apparantly…

i’m mad because you dosn’t answers my questions
you said to me in post # 128 that Quriash began to take mohammed as an enemy beause he condemned thier worship for idols
i didn’t deny that and i confessed that his mission was to guide them away from idolatory , and i said that any prophet will act the same
hence you said in post 130
“the prophets of the Jew dealt with many aspect of how people should treat the others, and not necessarily condemning the pagan, but if they have to deal with the pagan, it’s to condemn more of the behavior of the pagan of sacrificing their own child, aspect of their ritual of seeing the sexuality as an offer as well, and so on.”
i appreciated this answer and asked you very simple question
how did mohammed (pbuh) condemned their relegion which supposed to be different than that which you stated above
how did he condemned their beliefs which made them take him as an enemy ?
what made his behaviour differ than that of other prophets
( don’t miss the fact the we are talking now about biginning of the massage and the beginning of hatred )

I think I have informed you all the narration taken from the Shirah and your hadits, many instances before…now you seem to forget or anything?

i think that i didn’t deny what you informed me from sirah , i confessed that mohammed (pbuh) condemned the worship of idols of his people , i had further questions and i repeated it above

I was saying that all the prophets from the Bible were all dealing with the nation of Israel, the nation that had experienced and been saved by God. They have a covenant with God to stay faithful, so they were not to be involved in paganism, though most of their neighbors were pagan. They were to be the first example of people of belief, molded by God himself, so that all the other nation can see from them how their faith had saved them! No forcing, I’m sorry!

i don’t believe either that muslims believed in mohammed (pbuh) by force

Well, if you don’t want to open your eyes to all the reports saying that there’s no such thing like “religious freedom” in such countries! And tell me in SA, is there any church built? Is there any Jew live there? Is there any Jew ever accepted as normal same human being in arab countries?

how you saying that i don’t want to open my eyes ? i allready asked you to give me statistics that arab countries are the most intolerant countries in the world , or do you want from me in the fact to trust in your words blindly

I think the first OP here had already shown you all the reports telling “no repairing” of the church, no government position in Arab countries for non-Muslim, no convert at all, so why you’re now closing your eyes on those reports? Well…yeah, I’m not objective, since a muslim here are mad that he won’t believe whatever reports have been given…Why does it have to do with Israel? You don’t have to get the excuses just because someone else you accuse of doing something bad, you’re given the free ticket to do the same?

actually my intend was to see the statistics , if you have statistics that arab countries are the most intolerant countries in the world then i expect to see either the most tolerant countries in the world from the same statistics

Well, as far as I remember, I have presented stories that Muhammad didn’t kill all the Meccan on the condition that they accept him as prophet and the religion should be for Allah only, that is Islam, right? I think he also beheaded the idols of the pagans of the Meccan, right? All those idols that represented their tradition and their belief to convert to something alien like Islam? And that Muhammad killed at least 10 Meccan after his victory (report from your hadits), just because they mocked him out of their disbelief…

yes that’s right , it all happens after the conquest of mekkah , i think 2 years before his death
didn’t i said to you that you missed the chain of the argument , we are talking about why Quriash turned against him in the beginnig , right ?

I think I don’t miss the chain of argument…you just find it difficult to see that I jump into the right conclusion…

it’s all in the post 128 , you can check your arguments again

 

[schaick]

InSearchofGrace;6547504:

If you are able to shed light on the Muslim way of thinking, this can be one little exercise towards Christian-Islam understanding, yes?
i’m trying

i lives in middle east , in egypt exactly
being from arabs , i’m familier with traditions of these countries , christians are exist in most of arabs countries and they practice thier relegion and have churchs and bible is allowed in most of them

i think that you have no source but reading , where did you read that most muslims countries prohibit the bible , i think it was fair question from me , you are the one who started to condemn us for this thing , you are the one who should to give the proof of your truthfulness

i read somewhere in the internet that it’s 55 , but anyway it isn’t big problem .
beside i don’t know why you counted turky , do they prohibit the bible either ?

i’m from egypt , tell me how the freedom of christianity are limited in egypt
sorry , most of my neighbour are christians , and churchs are around us , and i don’t feel any limitation for their practices at all

yes may be

my country dosn’t applicate shariah law perfectly

and i focused to inform that muslims dosn’t need such advices as for most of them in the fact allows other relegions to be practiced

i think their is a big problem in understanding , that’s why i made my answer brief and direct
you don’t know what is shariah law exatly means to us , you asking me about what is legal and what is illegal under shariah law , but you didn’t specify the country
it’s possible to find 5 countries based their laws under shariah law , does that mean that laws are identical in those 5 countries !

the shariah law which is common to muslims is these laws which exist in quran , the rest of laws are left for the people to decide it .
these things like building of church or allow bible or allow women to drive a car or not , all these things not mentioned in quran , these things are behind the shariah laws

i jsut describing my point in hurry , i hope if my view is clear

i can give you proofs that christians did in the past marry young girls , and church never opposed it

they can

Truth about Eygpt:

amcoptic.com/thesis.pdf

Christians are fleeing, have fled from Lebanon because of Islam. Read Brigitte Gabriel or better yrt watch this video:

Part 1
youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY

Part 2
youtube.com/watch?v=X0gBTEwATwU&feature=relatedyoutube.com/watch?v=X0gBTEwATwU&feature=related

 

[elwill]

Yes so whenever a Muslim says:

You have to take it knowing the order of the Chapters. Thje Quran is not written out in Chronological order.

It is a problem with Islam after the peaceful verses allah sent** better verses **at a later date: Chapter 9 is the second to last Chapter written by Mohammad.

9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

so , you condemns muslims for what you believe about quran , not for what muslims believe about quran

no muslims will says to you that the peacefull verses were abrogated , but it’s okey if you wanna to insist in believing that

 

[schaick]

compassdirect.org/english/country/egypt/20750/

Egyptian Convert Endures Life at a Standstill – on the Run

Megaphones from this minaret broadcast anti-Christian messages across the street from the apartment where Maher El-Gohary and his daughter lived. (photo: Compass)
Daughter unable to attend school, church; acid thrown on her jacket.

CAIRO, Egypt, May 25 (CDN) — From the mosque across the street, words blasting from minaret megaphones reverberate throughout the tiny apartment where Maher Ahmad El-Mo’otahssem Bellah El-Gohary is forced to hide. Immediately following afternoon prayers, the Friday sermon is, in part, on how to deal with Christians.

“Do not shake their hands. Do not go into their homes. Do not eat their food,” an imam shouts as El-Gohary, a convert to Christianity from Islam, looks through his window toward the mosque, shakes his head and grimaces.

“I hope one day to live in a place where there are no mosques,” he says. “How many megaphones do they need?”

…

 

[schaick]

so , you condemns muslims for what you believe about quran , not for what muslims believe about islam

no muslims will says to you that the peacefull verses were abrogated , but it’s okey if you wanna to insist in believing that

No, they condemn themselves for what they believe about the Quran. I pray for muslims caught in a cult of violence and death.

You have no asurance of salvation unless:
9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Are you a lazy believer elwill?

4.95 Not equal are those believers who sit and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit. Unto all Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit by a special reward,-

Did I say anything about abrogation? No I said that allah sent better verses.

002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

 

[schaick]

my point is clear , this issue wasn’t ever relegious point , this issue wasn’t ever seen as an immoral behaviour in your society 100 years ago .
in many muslims countries they raised the age of concent either ( here in egypt it’s 18 )

changing of age of concent in your society wasn’t even an inspiration from a church or holy ghost , it was merely secular law

let me emphasize that i didn’t mean to disqualify specific country , i’m sure that in the past and especialy 1400 years age , the marriage in such ages was very normal for all people including christians , it was very normal in judaism and jesus didn’t ever diregard it

'The ages of consent for sexual activity vary by jurisdiction across Europe. Spain sets its age of consent at 13 years**, the Vatican State at 12 years**,'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

and who said to you mohammed (pbuh) promote any age for marriage , he married women in various ages , but he never promote specific ages over another
we have many ahadeeth when our prophet promote us to seek some aspects considering the marriage , the age wasn’t ever one of these aspects

i have no problem with your disagreement , it was nice to talking with you

The following Bible verses are about Israels relationship with GOD, but in them you can find GOD’s idea of the appropriate age for marriage-after puberty.

Ezekial 16
6 " 'Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, “Live!” 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. **Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.

8 " 'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, **I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.

Islams idea-marriage of child before courses- who has no courses:

65.4 Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

 

[schaick]

InSearchofGrace;6541734:

Some good answers have been given by elwill.
Muslims should abide by it. It is a must. But your swaying away from your religion and some politics of the world affairs makes its impact on Muslims too. The rest is provided by the bad, ignorant leadership of the Muslims.

There is no punishment for apostacy in islam. It is all made up rules/ laws of the bad ignorant leadership of the Muslims. There is not even a slight punishment for apostacy in islam in peace time. But during a war, the case may be different specially when a war is going on the basis of difference of religions.

Mohammad -
‘Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.’ Sahih Al-Bukhari 9:57

muhammadanism.org/Zwemer/apostasy.pdf

4.89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
4.90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

The following is interesting showing that the apostate is not equal under sharia law-along with the non-muslim:

nku.edu/~kenneyr/Islam/Reliance.html
A classical manual of Islamic Sacred Law by Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al Misri (D. 769/1368), with the English text, commentary and appendices translated by Noah Ha Mim Keller.

@O1.1
Retaliation is obligatory (A: if the person entitled wishes to take it (dis: o3.8) against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right. (O: Intentionally is a first restriction and excludes killing someone through an honest mistake, while purely excludes a mistake made in a deliberate injury (def: o2.3), and without right excludes cases of justifiable homicide such as lawful retaliation.)
@O1.2
The following are not subject to retaliation:-
2- a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim;
**-3- a Jewish or Christian subject of the Islamic state for killing an apostate from Islam (O: because a subject of the state is under its protection, while killing an apostate from Islam is without consequences); **-