Questions to Muslims not born in the U.S.

[InSearchofGrace]

In traveling or immigrating to the U.S. or Canada, for example, you are afforded personal freedom and liberty to exercise your religious practices.

Why is there no reciprocity to travelers to or guest workers in the Islamic countries in the Middle East and other parts of the world?

You have distaste for the excesses and immorality of Western lifestyle, which you also have in your society except that your excesses are protected under Sharia law.

Did Muhammad leave a theology based on injustice and intolerance to non-Muslims for you to follow?

 

[elwill]

In traveling or immigrating to the U.S. or Canada, for example, you are afforded personal freedom and liberty to exercise your religious practices.

Why is there no reciprocity to travelers to or guest workers in the Islamic countries in the Middle East and other parts of the world?

You have distaste for the excesses and immorality of Western lifestyle, which you also have in your society except that your excesses are protected under Sharia law.

Did Muhammad leave a theology based on injustice and intolerance to non-Muslims for you to follow?

in chapter 60 from quran

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

 

[jakasaki]

in chapter 60 from quran

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

And how does this verse apply to Saudi Arabia where no Christians are allowed Churches or to practice their faith?

 

[Jay53]

in chapter 60 from quran

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Does this explain the fighting between the different sects of Islam, i.e. Shia vs. Sunni? Are the homicide bombers who are blowing up other sects for example justified in their actions according to this verse or are they acting outside of Islamic law?

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8624338.stm

 

[KathleenGee]

I have been very interested in this dilemma for some time and wait for a clear answer.

 

[elwill]

Does this explain the fighting between the different sects of Islam, i.e. Shia vs. Sunni? Are the homicide bombers who are blowing up other sects for example justified in their actions according to this verse or are they acting outside of Islamic law?
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8624338.stm

they acting outside of islamic law

 

[elwill]

And how does this verse apply to Saudi Arabia where no Christians are allowed Churches or to practice their faith?

among all islamic countries exist in the world , suidia arabia is the only one which do that

may be you need to forward your question for suidia specifically not for the muslims

 

[Jay53]

they acting outside of islamic law

I’m glad you think so.

This is rather off topic from the OP, but I was wondering if there is some kind of “suicide hotline” for Muslims who are contemplating these horrific bombings?

Maybe if some of the “true” Muslims who understand that these suicide/homicide bombings are against the teachings of Islam can set up some type of hotline or counseling where imams or respected scholars of Islam can educate those considering suicide missions and explain to them that this is wrong and they are going against God.

 

[seraphime2008]

Does this explain the fighting between the different sects of Islam, i.e. Shia vs. Sunni? Are the homicide bombers who are blowing up other sects for example justified in their actions according to this verse or are they acting outside of Islamic law?

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8624338.stm

Excuse me for chiming in,
perhaps there’s a law stated in Quran that people may exercise their so called right to make a revenge, sort of an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth that goes like cycle that;s hard to interrupt. For such uninterrupted cycle, there won’t be anybody claim that he was the initiator if the attack.

Well…perhaps.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

in chapter 60 from quran

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Thank you for your post, elwill. Based on the verses from the Qu’ran you quoted, Allah loves the doer of justice, defining the exercise of justice as being kind to those who do not drive Muslims away from their homes or go to war against Muslims on account of their religion. There are many situations, however, as in examples below that do not have anything to do with going to war with Muslims or driving Muslims away from their homes.

I understand if you may not be able to answer questions that are specific to a practice in a Muslim country or countries. But you describe yourself as Sunni, which is what most Muslims are.

Can you explain Allah’s teaching of justice that applies:

1. 
   *]Why is a guest worker or traveler to most Islamic countries, who come in peace, not allowed to bring his/her bible, while Muslims who travel into the U.S. are free to bring in their holy book? Islamic law prohibits proselytizing to Muslims, but Muslims have the freedom to do so in any state in the U.S.!
   
   *]Why can not the guest workers, who are mostly Christians, who go to and stay in countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE for years to work, not free to worship, but when Muslims come to the U.S., they are free and demand to exercise that right?
   
   *]Why are individuals who wish to be citizens in these countries required to convert to Islam first? When Muslim immigrants apply for U.S. citizenship, conversion to Christianity is not a requirement!
   
   Granted Muslims are not monolithic. But why is it that in Muslim societies, the following are allowed or sanctioned?
   
   1. 
      *]A horrible practice of putative gravity: Muslim men taking child brides and forcing sex on them. Because Muhammad himself took a child bride?
      
      *]Fatwas by Muftis or imams on Muslims or non-Muslims deemed irreverent towards Allah or Muhammad, who live inside or outside an Islamic state. Jesus Christ was ridiculed in His life time and continues to be ridiculed to this day by many who do not accept Him and the teachings of the Catholic Church, but no one is sentenced to death for such a “transgression”, or for being an infidel, apostate, or blasphemer.
      
      *]Muslim females are imprisoned for fornication if they marry non-Muslims, unless their husbands convert to Islam first. But not vice-versa – Muslim men are free to marry non-Muslim women (Jewish or Christian chaste women) without fear of imprisonment!
      
      What are your thoughts on the:
      
      1. 
         *]Persecution of the Christian minority in Iraq, and the non-Islamic Bahai Faith followers in Iran and Egypt.
         
         *]Ban of open meetings or assembly by non-Muslims in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
         
         *]Outlawing of Ahmadiyya, a non-violent Muslim group that counters Islamic extremism, in Indonesia and Saudi Arabia. Islam means “submission” Did Allah or Muhammad promote violence as the only means to effect submission?
         
         *]Retaliation against Catholics in Malaysia, where 60% are Muslims and 10% are Christians. After the country’s high court allowed a Catholic weekly to use the word “Allah”, Islamic terrorists bombed Catholic churches in the country to show their displeasure over the court ruling! Is this in any way just?
         
         *]Expulsion of 70 long time resident Christian foreign aid workers in Morocco, mostly Americans, accused of religious advocacy when they were only helping Morrocans for the last two decades.
         
         So many inequities, elwill, on many levels … and this is just a short list. Can you or other Muslim posters in this forum explain any of the above?

 

[Reuben_J]

Thank you for your post, elwill. Based on the verses from the Qu’ran you quoted, Allah loves the doer of justice, defining the exercise of justice as being kind to those who do not drive Muslims away from their homes or go to war against Muslims on account of their religion. There are many situations, however, as in examples below that do not have anything to do with going to war with Muslims or driving Muslims away from their homes.

I understand if you may not be able to answer questions that are specific to a practice in a Muslim country or countries. But you describe yourself as Sunni, which is what most Muslims are.

Can you explain Allah’s teaching of justice that applies:

1. 
   *]Why is a guest worker or traveler to most Islamic countries, who come in peace, not allowed to bring his/her bible, while Muslims who travel into the U.S. are free to bring in their holy book? Islamic law prohibits proselytizing to Muslims, but Muslims have the freedom to do so in any state in the U.S.!
   
   *]Why can not the guest workers, who are mostly Christians, who go to and stay in countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE for years to work, not free to worship, but when Muslims come to the U.S., they are free and demand to exercise that right?
   
   *]Why are individuals who wish to be citizens in these countries required to convert to Islam first? When Muslim immigrants apply for U.S. citizenship, conversion to Christianity is not a requirement!
   
   Granted Muslims are not monolithic. But why is it that in Muslim societies, the following are allowed or sanctioned?
   
   1. 
      *]A horrible practice of putative gravity: Muslim men taking child brides and forcing sex on them. Because Muhammad himself took a child bride?
      
      *]Fatwas by Muftis or imams on Muslims or non-Muslims deemed irreverent towards Allah or Muhammad, who live inside or outside an Islamic state. Jesus Christ was ridiculed in His life time and continues to be ridiculed to this day by many who do not accept Him and the teachings of the Catholic Church, but no one is sentenced to death for such a “transgression”, or for being an infidel, apostate, or blasphemer.
      
      *]Muslim females are imprisoned for fornication if they marry non-Muslims, unless their husbands convert to Islam first. But not vice-versa – Muslim men are free to marry non-Muslim women (Jewish or Christian chaste women) without fear of imprisonment!
      
      What are your thoughts on the:
      
      1. 
         *]Persecution of the Christian minority in Iraq, and the non-Islamic Bahai Faith followers in Iran and Egypt.
         
         *]Ban of open meetings or assembly by non-Muslims in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
         
         *]Outlawing of Ahmadiyya, a non-violent Muslim group that counters Islamic extremism, in Indonesia and Saudi Arabia. Islam means “submission” Did Allah or Muhammad promote violence as the only means to effect submission?
         
         *]Retaliation against Catholics in Malaysia, where 60% are Muslims and 10% are Christians. After the country’s high court allowed a Catholic weekly to use the word “Allah”, Islamic terrorists bombed Catholic churches in the country to show their displeasure over the court ruling! Is this in any way just?
         
         *]Expulsion of 70 long time resident Christian foreign aid workers in Morocco, mostly Americans, accused of religious advocacy when they were only helping Morrocans for the last two decades.
         
         So many inequities, elwill, on many levels … and this is just a short list. Can you or other Muslim posters in this forum explain any of the above?

1. 1. 1. 
         I just know what Muslims answer to this – that they (the Islamic countries concerned) are not following Islam in its correct form. They (at least Muslim posters here) are about unanimous in saying that all the countries in the world which use Islamic laws are not practicing them correctly. It is as if the posters here are better than the Muslim scholars and the Ulamas being engaged by those countries.
         
         Problem with Islam it that it allows humans to be God and impose God’s law and implement its conviction. Thus they have Islamic law which is God’s law but human beings implementing and carrying out its punishment.
         
         This won’t work of course because man is not God and will not be able to implement the law perfectly. That is what we have today in the Islamic world – confusion, with Muslims disagreeing with each other.
         
         Islamic law is a myth; impractical and could never be implemented perfectly. It is merely a political tool designed by Mohammad to perpetuate his (Islamic) power and influence. If we understand this, then we understand what actually Islam is today – political and exclusive. I hope I am wrong but so far I am not being convinced otherwise.
         
         But I am interested to listen to their answer anyway.

 

[Sam_777]

Why is a guest worker or traveler to most Islamic countries, who come in peace, not allowed to bring his/her bible, while Muslims who travel into the U.S. are free to bring in their holy book? Islamic law prohibits proselytizing to Muslims, but Muslims have the freedom to do so in any state in the U.S.!

Haven’t you heard of discrimination .

Why can not the guest workers, who are mostly Christians, who go to and stay in countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE for years to work, not free to worship, but when Muslims come to the U.S., they are free and demand to exercise that right?

I think they can now in UAE but not in SA, Saudi Arabia is working per those hadiths:
Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366:
“…I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”
(E) (A)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716:
"… He said, “Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula;…”
(E) (A)

Why are individuals who wish to be citizens in these countries required to convert to Islam first?

Even if the person converts he/she will not get citizenship, there are Muslim people here who stayed for over 50 years and they can’t get the citizenship because of the awful law of Saudi Arabia.

Muslim men taking child brides and forcing sex on them. Because Muhammad himself took a child bride?

Yes, per the following hadiths: **
Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:**
“'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.”
(E) (A)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
“*Narrated 'Aisha:*that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).”
(E) (A)

but no one is sentenced to death for such a “transgression”, or for being an infidel, apostate, or blasphemer.

Because they are implementing what is written in Quran:
*(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

*(Quran 9:5):
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Muslim females are imprisoned for fornication if they marry non-Muslims, unless their husbands convert to Islam first. But not vice-versa –

Because Allah said so…, a Muslim woman can not marry non-Muslim man per (Quran 2:221), but a Muslim man can marry a Jewish or a Christian woman per (Quran 5:5).

For your remaining questions, here is a simple answer:
(Matthew 7:15-16):
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

 

[elwill]

I understand if you may not be able to answer questions that are specific to a practice in a Muslim country or countries. But you describe yourself as Sunni, which is what most Muslims are.

yes i’m sunni which is the most muslims are , which means …?

Can you explain Allah’s teaching of justice that applies:

1. 
   *]Why is a guest worker or traveler to most Islamic countries, who come in peace, not allowed to bring his/her bible, while Muslims who travel into the U.S. are free to bring in their holy book? Islamic law prohibits proselytizing to Muslims, but Muslims have the freedom to do so in any state in the U.S.!

1. 
   how many islamic countries which prohihbit the bible ? i think may be one or two countries
   

   *]Why can not the guest workers, who are mostly Christians, who go to and stay in countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE for years to work, not free to worship, but when Muslims come to the U.S., they are free and demand to exercise that right?

   if you asking me about teaching of islam , then we have no reasons from quran or sunnah to prohibit it , and i believe most of muslims’s countries allows christianity practices
   
   but why politically or locally saidia do that , so they have theire reasons , may we can discuss it as special case , not as an islamic practice case
   

   *]Why are individuals who wish to be citizens in these countries required to convert to Islam first? When Muslim immigrants apply for U.S. citizenship, conversion to Christianity is not a requirement!

   every country have it’s own policies to give the citizenship for whoever it want , it isn’t international policy
   but it’s not exist in the teaching of islam to give citizenship for muslims only . it’s another special case
   

   Granted Muslims are not monolithic. But why is it that in Muslim societies, the following are allowed or sanctioned?

   because the differes are exist between people and the cultures are different and theobjective of leaders are different , this is the nature of all world
   the laws of your countries now is differ than 1 century ago although you are christian and 100 years ago thiere were christians either
   

   1. 
      *]A horrible practice of putative gravity: Muslim men taking child brides and forcing sex on them. Because Muhammad himself took a child bride?

   1. 
      no
      

      *]Fatwas by Muftis or imams on Muslims or non-Muslims deemed irreverent towards Allah or Muhammad, who live inside or outside an Islamic state. Jesus Christ was ridiculed in His life time and continues to be ridiculed to this day by many who do not accept Him and the teachings of the Catholic Church, but no one is sentenced to death for such a “transgression”, or for being an infidel, apostate, or blasphemer.

      if jesus is alive , do you think that he will encourage the insult and hate preach against other relegions
      because in islam actually , allah prohibit muslims from insult the relegions of nonmuslims
      

      *]Muslim females are imprisoned for fornication if they marry non-Muslims, unless their husbands convert to Islam first. But not vice-versa – Muslim men are free to marry non-Muslim women (Jewish or Christian chaste women) without fear of imprisonment!

      What are your thoughts on the:

      1. 
         *]Persecution of the Christian minority in Iraq, and the non-Islamic Bahai Faith followers in Iran and Egypt.

      1. 
         

         *]Ban of open meetings or assembly by non-Muslims in Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

         *]Outlawing of Ahmadiyya, a non-violent Muslim group that counters Islamic extremism, in Indonesia and Saudi Arabia. Islam means “submission” Did Allah or Muhammad promote violence as the only means to effect submission?

         *]Retaliation against Catholics in Malaysia, where 60% are Muslims and 10% are Christians. After the country’s high court allowed a Catholic weekly to use the word “Allah”, Islamic terrorists bombed Catholic churches in the country to show their displeasure over the court ruling! Is this in any way just?

         *]Expulsion of 70 long time resident Christian foreign aid workers in Morocco, mostly Americans, accused of religious advocacy when they were only helping Morrocans for the last two decades.

         So many inequities, elwill, on many levels … and this is just a short list. Can you or other Muslim posters in this forum explain any of the above?

         may be it’s many equalities practices , not islamic practices .
         you dosn’t discuss the islam , you discuss the behaviours of some muslims in some countries

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Haven’t you heard of discrimination .

I like your sense of humor, Sam_777.

Seriously, why don’t Muslims heed this Qu’ran teaching, for example:

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.](Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

Islam is not secure in its ability to keep its followers without resorting to one-sided policies like discrimination against non-Muslims. Come to think of it, what other religion levies death to its own for apostasy?

There are good Muslims around the world, I’m sure, but there is an overwhelming number who just will not play by the rules of civility and reciprocity of goodwill. They use the Qu’ran as license to spread their brand of (un)fairness in the world and society.

 

[Mosacked]

In traveling or immigrating to the U.S. or Canada, for example, you are afforded personal freedom and liberty to exercise your religious practices.

Why is there no reciprocity to travelers to or guest workers in the Islamic countries in the Middle East and other parts of the world?

You have distaste for the excesses and immorality of Western lifestyle, which you also have in your society except that your excesses are protected under Sharia law.

Did Muhammad leave a theology based on injustice and intolerance to non-Muslims for you to follow?

InSearchofGrace, don’t expect reciprocated grace.

First the facts.

1 – Muslims are not allowed to be cremated. They are buried. And once buried they are prohibited to be ‘infringed’ upon especially by non-muslims.
2 – Muslims are not allowed to depart from their religion, and their descendants MUST remain in islam.
3 – Islam does not permit religious challenges & apostasy. They can let you join them, but they are strictly prohibited from joining you.
4 – Islamic marriages are such that the non-muslim must convert into islam in order to be married to the muslim spouse. Thereafter even if there is a divorce, the islamised person is prohibited from leaving.
5 – Muslims are taught to slaughter non-muslims unless the latter ‘surrenders in peace’.
6 – Islamic mosques are very very rarely torn down except for upgrading or re-location purposes. Once up, they cannot be removed.

Now…Imagine a world that nobody dies, pro-creation continues. Soon, the world will be jammed & flooded with people.

Then… Look at the above 6 instructions CAREFULLY. These instructions are certainly not ‘green’ friendly. It is to INFEST the world. FLOOD it with a kind of indoctrinated people whose remains are not returned to dust. Ultimately, and inevitably it WILL lead to physical battles because land is scarce and these community of people are re-producing like nobody’s business.

Whoever conjured the idea of islam clearly spent some time planning how to destroy the world.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

yes i’m sunni which is the most muslims are , which means …?

…meaning as a Sunni, with Sunnis comprising most of Muslims populating Islamic states, you might be able to shed light on the Muslim way of thinking on justice and fairness.

how many islamic countries which prohihbit the bible ? i think may be one or two countries

In Saudi Arabia, bibles (and crosses) are routinely confiscated at customs and clearance. It would be hard to go through each of the 47 Muslim majority countries here and figure how many prohibit the bible in the same way. It’s different for each Islamic country, as you said.

Just in three other countries as examples here, would you say Christians fare better? In Malaysia, where 10% of the population is Christian, a shipment of bibles was seized at the airport in Oct 2009. Even if Christians are “officially” free to worship there, the government is known to make bible confiscation sweeps. In Morocco, in Feb 2010, authorities raided a bible study being conducted in a Christian home, made 18 arrests and confiscated their bibles. In Turkey, where freedom of religion / worship is “constitutional”, three workers working in a bible publishing house were murdered in April 2007, their throats slit after being tortured first by extremists in the name of Islam!

My point is Muslim immigrants take the goodwill and generosity of their adoptive or host non-Muslim countries, but Muslim countries do not afford the same to its non-Muslim immigrants and visitors. Instead of being ashamed, some Muslims even take pride in such blatant injustice, prompting one authoritative Muslim participant in an Islamic-Christian dialogue to the Christian attendees, “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you.”

if you asking me about teaching of islam , then we have no reasons from quran or sunnah to prohibit it , and i believe most of muslims’s countries allows christianity practices

but why politically or locally saidia do that , so they have theire reasons , may we can discuss it as special case , not as an islamic practice case

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand your first sentence. If you believe that most of Muslim countries allow Christians to practice their faith, which ones are those?

In fact, since 2003, the Vatican has demanded that its faithful be allowed religious freedom in the Middle East, i.e., to hear Mass, build churches, just as Muslims have been free to do in every other country in the world where they are a minority.

As to proselytizing to Muslims, I understand under Sharia law across Islamic states, it is illegal. Right, elwill?

every country have it’s own policies to give the citizenship for whoever it want , it isn’t international policy
but it’s not exist in the teaching of islam to give citizenship for muslims only . it’s another special case

because the differes are exist between people and the cultures are different and theobjective of leaders are different , this is the nature of all world
the laws of your countries now is differ than 1 century ago although you are christian and 100 years ago thiere were christians either

Okay, I understand you.

no

Which is it, elwill, taking child brides and forcing sex on them is not a horrible practice, or Muhammad did not in fact take a child bride? If you saying one or both are not true, you are in major denial, elwill.

if jesus is alive , do you think that he will encourage the insult and hate preach against other relegions
because in islam actually , allah prohibit muslims from insult the relegions of nonmuslims

If Jesus were alive, He will not encourage insults and hate towards any religion. He is a loving God who teaches us to love our neighbors. Do you think that Allah revealed to Muhammad that his followers should not insult or hate non-Muslims, but Allah told Muhammad that Muslims should commit active injustice and hostility towards non-Muslims just for exercising their faith?

may be it’s many equalities practices , not islamic practices .
you dosn’t discuss the islam , you discuss the behaviours of some muslims in some countries

If it were truly just behavior of some Muslims in some countries, Christians and Christian countries would not be so outraged.

If what you’re saying is true, Muslim immigrants would not come and stay in the Western countries in droves and the Christian population in Muslim countries would not be dwindling.

 

[elwill]

…meaning as a Sunni, with Sunnis comprising most of Muslims populating Islamic states, you might be able to shed light on the Muslim way of thinking on justice and fairness.

yes may be i will able to shed light on the muslim way of thinking not to change the laws of others countries

In Saudi Arabia, bibles (and crosses) are routinely confiscated at customs and clearance. It would be hard to go through each of the 47 Muslim majority countries here and figure how many prohibit the bible in the same way. It’s different for each Islamic country, as you said.

it’s hard to go through each of the muslims majority countries which means that you don’t know what is the situation there !!!
so , you were wrong when you said that most countris prohibit the bible , it’s clear that you don’t know what you talking about

Just in three other countries as examples here, would you say Christians fare better? In Malaysia, where 10% of the population is Christian, a shipment of bibles was seized at the airport in Oct 2009. Even if Christians are “officially” free to worship there, the government is known to make bible confiscation sweeps. In Morocco, in Feb 2010, authorities raided a bible study being conducted in a Christian home, made 18 arrests and confiscated their bibles. In Turkey, where freedom of religion / worship is “constitutional”, three workers working in a bible publishing house were murdered in April 2007, their throats slit after being tortured first by extremists in the name of Islam!

considering the wrost case , you counted now 3 countries out of 55 countries , you still can’t to say that most muslim’s coutntries are like that .
i have no problem to discuss the situation in those three countries as specisal cases .
my objections is about your generalizing it to other 50 muslims countries allows bible in theire countries
by the way , turky not counted , it’s merely crime not an official law

My point is Muslim immigrants take the goodwill and generosity of their adoptive or host non-Muslim countries,** but Muslim countries do not afford the same to its non-Muslim **immigrants and visitors. Instead of being ashamed, some Muslims even take pride in such blatant injustice, prompting one authoritative Muslim participant in an Islamic-Christian dialogue to the Christian attendees, “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you.”

95 % of muslims countries afford the same to it’s nonmuslim immigrants

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand your first sentence. If you believe that most of Muslim countries allow Christians to practice their faith, which ones are those?

all of them are , may be sudia is the only one which prohibit the bible , that’s why it’s the only one always mentioned regarding this issue

In fact, since 2003, the Vatican has demanded that its faithful be allowed religious freedom in the Middle East, i.e., to hear Mass, build churches, just as Muslims have been free to do in every other country in the world where they are a minority.

As to proselytizing to Muslims, I understand under Sharia law across Islamic states, it is illegal. Right, elwill?

not right

Which is it, elwill, taking child brides and forcing sex on them is not a horrible practice, or Muhammad did not in fact take a child bride? If you saying one or both are not true, you are in major denial, elwill.

forcing sex in any girl whether little or old girls is a horrible practice , mohammed (pbuh) didn’t force sex in anyone
the age of aisha is doubtious issue , but if we assume the wrost which mean she was 9 or 12 years old , then he didn’t act agains god of the bible
historically , christians themself was marries in such ages in the past

If Jesus were alive, He will not encourage insults and hate towards any religion. He is a loving God who teaches us to love our neighbors. Do you think that Allah revealed to Muhammad that his followers should not insult or hate non-Muslims, but Allah told Muhammad that Muslims should commit active injustice and hostility towards non-Muslims just for exercising their faith?

God revealed to moahammed (pbuh) that muslims shouldn’t insult nonmuslims , and allah either told mohammed that muslims should to be just with them ( did you forgot the verses in my first post ! )

If it were truly just behavior of some Muslims in some countries, Christians and Christian countries would not be so outraged.

you have the rights to be so outraged offcours , i object your condemnation for entire relegion because of some practices which may be most of muslims deny it either

my objections is that you suppose every crime and every sin commited by muslims to be the results of teaching of their relegion while it’s probably the opposite

 

[Sam_777]

Seriously, why don’t Muslims heed this Qu’ran teaching, for example:

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.](Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

In Islam there is a concept called “the abrogating and abrogated verses” which means the instructions for some verses of Quran were replaced by others throughout the 23 years of Quranic revelation.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

yes may be i will able to shed light on the muslim way of thinking not to change the laws of others countries

If you are able to shed light on the Muslim way of thinking, this can be one little exercise towards Christian-Islam understanding, yes? Who says you can change the laws of other countries? Not even the U.S. president has the power to do that. Unfortunately, world leaders on both Muslim and non-Muslim side of the fence can misuse the power they do have. Their feet are made of clay like the god’s in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. What happened on 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq are examples!

it’s hard to go through each of the muslims majority countries which means that you don’t know what is the situation there !!!
so , you were wrong when you said that most countris prohibit the bible , it’s clear that you don’t know what you talking about

considering the wrost case , you counted now 3 countries out of 55 countries , you still can’t to say that most muslim’s coutntries are like that .
i have no problem to discuss the situation in those three countries as specisal cases .
my objections is about your generalizing it to other 50 muslims countries allows bible in theire countries
by the way , turky not counted , it’s merely crime not an official law

95 % of muslims countries afford the same to it’s nonmuslim immigrants

Your statement of 95% of Muslim countries affording the same (goodwill and generosity to its non-Muslim immigrants), is not backed with examples, much less statistics. Are you not using hasty generalizations yourself?

Btw, I listed 4 countries (Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Malaysia, Morocco), out of 47, not 3 out of 55. It’s what I can put in this discourse for now.

If you look at Post #10, I listed 6 countries where freedom to worship by minority religions is infringed on or severely limited: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Eqypt and Malaysia.

Even if you don’t think these are enough to establish trending, the examples I listed are not insignificant and not fictional.

It would be great if some grad student in Muslim studies, or whatever sociology discipline, already has a a research paper / thesis completed on, say, “Religious Freedom in Muslim Majority Countries” or a narrower topic, “The Truth (or Myth?) of Bible Confiscation in Muslim Majority Countries”? Is there anyone out there in this forum who can help us on this thread by providing a link or study on the subject? Or, is there anyone out there from the U.S. State Department, perhaps, who might provide such data?

I am curious, eriwill, if within your faith, within your country, are you free to voice legitimate dissent on any application of the Sharia law or any hadith? I think I know the answer but I do not want to presume. I notice that in your profile, you do not put what country you live in. Do you leave this info out, out of safety concern? If that is so, I understand the position you’re in. May your life and those you hold dear be never placed at risk.

elwill, on this thread, I focused on the freedom to bring in / use bibles and religious freedom of minorities in Muslim countries, in hopes to challenge Muslims to think about objective fairness and justice. I would be happy if I were wrong on the premise I put forth.

not right

Please expound on your reply, what is not right?

forcing sex in any girl whether little or old girls is a horrible practice , mohammed (pbuh) didn’t force sex in anyone
the age of aisha is doubtious issue , but if we assume the wrost which mean she was 9 or 12 years old , then he didn’t act agains god of the bible
historically , christians themself was marries in such ages in the past

I appreciate your reply very much. You are against rape on young girls and older girls. You are taking an independent stand, which is admirable! When you and other Muslim posters on this forum are forced to analyze if a certain hadith or practice is indeed the right thing to follow or not, then our discourse is well worth it.

There is no teaching to Christians since the first century to take a child bride. Rape of or sex with minors was always against the law. Betrothal to a girl was never done, never blessed by the Church.

God revealed to moahammed (pbuh) that muslims shouldn’t insult nonmuslims , and allah either told mohammed that muslims should to be just with them ( did you forgot the verses in my first post ! )

No, I did not forget the verses you posted. In fact, I read it over. Sorry, but the verses do not apply to the question of Christians not being able to exercise their faith in Muslim countries. We are not discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict or Palestinian situation.

(con’t)

 

[InSearchofGrace]

you have the rights to be so outraged offcours , i object your condemnation for entire relegion because of some practices which may be most of muslims deny it either

my objections is that you suppose every crime and every sin commited by muslims to be the results of teaching of their relegion while it’s probably the opposite

I do not object to a religion that promotes love of God and peace with our fellowmen. In fact I have been looking for Qu’ran verses or hadiths that would negate every place where justification for violence is sought. I found some verses, which encouraged me, but I am researching if they have been abrogated (Read my exchange with Sam_777 in this thread).

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.](Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

I also read that for peaceful Muslims, love is a timeless transcendent power which guides and transforms human mutual regard. This love, as indicated by the Holy and Beloved Prophet Muhammad, is prior to the human love for the One True God. A hadith indicates that God’s loving compassion for humanity is even greater than that of a mother for her child (Muslim, Bab al-Tawba: 21); it therefore exists before and independently of the human response to the One who is ‘The Loving.’ So immense is this love and compassion that God has intervened to guide and save humanity in a perfect way many times and in many places, by sending prophets and scriptures. The last of these books, the Qur’an, portrays a world of signs, a marvelous cosmos of Divine artistry, which calls forth our utter love and devotion, so that

‘those who have faith, have most love of God’ (2:165), and

‘those that believe, and do good works, the Merciful shall engender love among them.’ (19:96)

There is also a hadith that says

‘Not one of you has faith until he loves for his neighbour what he loves for himself’ (Bukhari, Bab al-Iman: 13).

Just two more things before I end this post, erwill.

It might interest you that one of the women for whom I have utmost respect and admiration is Amina Rasul-Bernardo, a Muslim woman I met years ago overseas. She is a highly educated Muslim woman with a Christian husband, who did not have to convert. No, she does not live in a predominantly Muslim country, so her background and experience are not what would have been if she had been born and raised in the Middle East or in an Islamic country elsewhere. Her life and works are inspiring, although not without challenge. You can google her name if you want.

Also, are you familiar with A Common Word website? If not, I encourage you to check it. It is about Muslim leaders who banded together in a peaceful initiative with the Pope, the kind of direction that everybody can be happy about, Muslims and Christians alike. This led to the Catholic-Islam Dialogue, which is ongoing. Hearts and minds can be won by peaceful talks, not by wielding a sword. Sorry for that last phrase, elwill. Not an insult, by the way.

May God bless you.