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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Thank you for the link.
I started to read it and I may have questions for you. It’s not an easy read, so I will need more time.
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I started to read it and I may have questions for you. It’s not an easy read, so I will need more time.
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elwill
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If you are able to shed light on the Muslim way of thinking, this can be one little exercise towards Christian-Islam understanding, yes?
i’m trying
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InSearchofGrace
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I agree with you on that one. The poster who made the remarks should have been called out earlier for his very uncharitable statements. We can not build a more fraternal world if we do not afford dignity to others as humans being and respect of their religion.
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Kadaveri
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This is false. These murders were committed by Turkish ultra-nationalists (who are very secular) who were part of a network which attempted a military coup against the current Turkish government accusing it of being ‘Islamist’, and they justified the killings by claiming the victims were collaborating with Kurdish rebels to destroy Turkey. They never mentioned Islam.
Accused deny charges in Malatya case
Court links Ergenekon to Malatya murder case
Colonel with Alleged Malatya Massacre Connection in Custody for Ergenekon
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LordsPoint
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QUOTE And how does this verse apply to Saudi Arabia where no Christians are allowed Churches or to practice their faith? QUOTE
Actually, they do allow Christians to hold worship services. It is completely unofficial, they turn their heads as long as the buildings are not marked and the sounds are kept to a minimum. The allow this on Friday, their Holy Day. That is why my wife and I held our own services on Sunday in our home for the 2 years I worked there.
Actually, they do allow Christians to hold worship services. It is completely unofficial, they turn their heads as long as the buildings are not marked and the sounds are kept to a minimum. The allow this on Friday, their Holy Day. That is why my wife and I held our own services on Sunday in our home for the 2 years I worked there.
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InSearchofGrace
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Whew! I finished reading the link you provided. If that is not complicated, I don’t know what is. On top of trying to understand Qu’ran teachings, and different application of the Sharia laws!
The result of naskh may be like what the Watchtower had done, by changing passages in the Bible to come up with the Jehovahs Witnesses New World Translation Bible, no longer supporting time held doctrines by Christians and Catholics, such as the Trinity and Divinity of Jesus.
Anyway, Sam_777, can you tell me if the passages in the Qu’ran about fair dealing and justice (Post # 14), good works and love of neighbor (see Post #20) were replaced or nullified?
Thank you.
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InSearchofGrace
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Egypt! Has anything of good come out of Egypt?
This is Catholic humor, erwill, so no need to take offense. It’s a variation of John 1:46 verse in our Bible, a nice story of how Jesus first met His disciple Nathaniel (Bartholomew). Nathaniel asked of Jesus of Nazareth, “Can anything of good come out of Nazareth?”
And here’s a little bit about myself: I am a practicing Catholic, married to a non-practicing Lutheran. We live in California. For obstetric care and delivery of our two sons, I chose the best OB in town I can find, an Egyptian doctor. Back then, I was a claims analyst handling liability cases against our client doctors. So you can bet I know how to investigate doctors and their background.
To be clear, I do not condemn the entire Islam religion or the entire Muslim people, as you said in your other reply, but I deplore the injustice to Christians on a number of Muslim majority countries.
I do not profess to understand or know all about what’s happening in other parts of the world, or about the Muslim faith or Sharia laws. I figure it would be productive in this forum and thread to ask Muslims directly about issues and why things are such in their society and part of the world.
Each of the Muslim country that I mentioned where bible use/distribution is/was restricted was obtained from a news article.
Government authorities and religious leaders are not really accessible to civilians / lay people like me (I would venture to say it’s not different for you, but please correct me if I’m wrong). And it would be next to impossible to make a personal survey of countries!
So, yes, my source is mostly from reading news, but I don’t believe everything I read. I put more weight on facts than opinions of people.
Btw, I have friends / relatives who have worked in the Middle East in various work capacities, including a brother who took an engineering job in Riyadh and his fiancée who worked for a number of years for Saudia Airlines. My brother and his fiancée, now his wife, confirmed that they were not able to hear Mass on Sundays and holy days (there was no church to go to) and no Christian could even have a Bible, rosary, or any religious article on their person or baggage whenever they enter the country. Not even a t-shirt with any cross imprint or religious art.
You are right in that the country with the most limitations is Saudi Arabia. UAE has more relaxed rules. In Muslim countries where there are churches, said places become targets for bombings when extremists are displeased with activities or things they blame Christians for, i.e;, Iraq, Malaysia, and Pakistan, as reported in recent news.
Below I provide the sources on your question about why I mentioned Turkey (that has to do with Bible restriction) and Egypt (that has to do with curtailing religious freedom of Christians)
christiantoday.com/article/christian.bible.publishers.murdered.in.turkey/10430.htm
persecution.org/suffering/countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=7
erwill, do you read or follow news affecting Christian minorities in your country or region? Because if you only follow news that affect your Muslim brothers, it would be easy to minimize or gloss over the examples I raised.yes may be
I was pointing out, not advising. I realize, however, that it is not an easy subject to discuss. So we agree to disagree on the premise.
Thanks for the explanation. It’s a step to my understanding a piece of the Muslim world better.
How can the Qu’ran verses you cited apply on the question of Christians not being able to exercise their faith in the mentioned Muslim countries?they can
Then, please give me “proofs”, facts and source of what you claim here.
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elwill
Guest
thank you for clarifying that
as i said before i have no problem to discuss the situation of christians in these countries as a special case not as an islamic teaching , i hope that my objections to attach these behaviours to islamic teaching were clear
i like to hear that
yes , i didn’t deny that it happens in saudia , but it dosn’t happen in most of other countries
my point is that it was terrorism acts , it’s a crime , it dosn’t represent the culture of government their
i will tell you something briefly about my life , may be you can comprehend my situation .
as i told you before i have three neighbours in my floor , with very good relationship , i had many christians friends through my school and my college and through my work either
churches and mass and every thing are performed regulatory in egypt
generally , the situation is stable between muslims and christians
but it happens sometimes when such crimes against christians happens in some areas , most probably the reasons ( not all of them ) are very far from being relegious reasons .
not muslims nor christians justified with such crimes , all of us condemn it . it’s odd cases
some people pick those crimes and try to fire it up to courrupt the situation and the relationship within a country , they represent such cases to you as it was regualr crimes and persecuation from muslims against christians .
may be you need to visit egypt to realize what i’m talking about
i don’t like this statment " we agree to disagree" it’s not my intension at all
but i think we need to base our discussion in common ground , we must to determine the common ground firstly then discuss the differes
as a start , do you know that In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source: ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm)
The Common Law age of consent was 10. The French penal code raised the age from 11 to 13 only a century ago. In England, it was only in 1929 (70 years ago) that the ancient Christian minimum age for the marriage of females, which was 12, was abandoned. The early rock and roll singer Jerry Lee Lewis was considerably older than his 13 cousin whom he married in all legality in Arkansas. Since then, the age there has been raised to 16.
In the US (an example of a prominent western country, since the west had the greatest effect on the world in the last couple of centuries.) They considered a seven year old female competent on making decisions regarding sex, though it was raised later on (in 1886, after attempts to raise the age of consent, Delaware was the only state to retain the common law age of seven, while twenty five states set the minimum age at a mere ten.)
if you have time , then read in this site either , i just have no time now to quote from it
roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm
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elwill
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InSearchofGrace
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That is nice that you live in an integrated neighborhood with Christians. However, what is your response to the State Department Religious Freedom Report on the persecution of Christians in Egypt? I hope you did not just gloss over the reported facts on the link that I provided to you already. Here it is again:
persecution.org/suffering/countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=7
Some facts worthy of mention, not consisted with your opinion on anti-Christian practices in Egypt:
"The Copts (Orthodox Christians) are persecuted by radical Islamic groups and at times by local police and other security officials. While the Egyptian government does not have a policy to persecute Christians, it discriminates against them and hampers their freedom of worship, and its agencies sporadically persecute Muslim converts to Christianity. In particular: the government of Egypt enforces onerous Hamayouni restrictions on building of or repairing churches, restrictions that do not apply to mosques.
The Copts’ ability to exercised their basic right to free worship is frustrated by Egypt’s complex, and frequently arbitrary, requirements for building an repairing churches or church-owned buildings …
The government of Egypt applies religiously-discriminatory laws and practices concerning conversion, marriage, parenthood, education, and clergy salaries.
The government of Egypt has effectively restricted Christians from senior government, political, military, or educational positions, and there is increasing discrimination in the private sector …
The government of Egypt subsidizes media which attack Christianity and restricts Christians’ access to the state-controlled media.
While proselytizing is not illegal, some Muslim converts to Christianity have been charged with a provision of the Penal code that prohibits the use of religion to “ignite heavenly strife, degrade any of the heavenly religions of harm national unity or social peace.”
…
The government-owned television stations broadcast only 2 hours of Christian programming a year on Easter. Most of the tax-supported programming is pro-Islamic, if not anti-Christian.
August 21, 2009 Egyptian coptic priest banned from village, under death threat. Fanatic Muslims threatened to kill an Egyptian priest after he tried to convert his family property into prayer hell.July 03, 2009 Christian copts appeal to Mubarak for protection amid renewed sectarian violence. The appeal came after Egyptian security officials incited violence against Christians in the village of Guirgis Bey, Arfahssi.
Egyptian Christians continue to face violence from Muslim radicals. Government officials have repeatedly failed to protect the persecuted Christians.”
Erwill, the above reported facts do not speak of isolated, special cases and they are not just crimes on random people, victims of crime, as you maintain. The facts portray government sanctioned, system-wide target of Christians.
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InSearchofGrace
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Hello, erwill, did you forget to address this question?
How do the Qu’ran verses you cited apply as to the question of Christians not being able to exercise their faith in any of the mentioned Muslim countries?
How do the Qu’ran verses you cited apply as to the question of Christians not being able to exercise their faith in any of the mentioned Muslim countries?
Thank you.
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elwill
Guest
can you imagine yourself reading an address for article in big font " the son killed his father "
what will you say in your mind about this son , may be you will curse him
but what about if you read deeply about the details of the case and find out that the father for example was hitting the mother very harshly and while the good kid trying to protect his mother , he killed the father
will you change your openion about the son , may be after reading the details from all of it’s sides you will pray for this killer to not condemned for his crime , may be you will justfy his act , right !
InSearchofGrace . these sites are not honest in transmition the facts , there are main objectives and agenda for such sites , believe me , mention the other half of the case probably ignored , so that i can not say it’s false nor can i say it’s correct
it’s just out of context , details and it’s just half of the truth .
answer me this
isn’t thiere any persecuation for muslims in europe ?
if yes , then can i say that muslims suffere persecuation in europe in such way which will make you think that it’s tradition in europe to perseuate the muslims ?
existence of such treatment for muslims in the west dosn’t mean that persecuation be practiced by the entire westerner
and if majority of westerner are christians dosn’t mean that it’s teaching of christianity to persecuate the muslims .
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elwill
Guest
these verses were cited as a proof that quran commanded us to deal justly with people as long as they are peacfull ( not in war with us )
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
The age of consent article you provided ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm is interesting.
It provides information for each state in the United States on age of consent for sexual activity, on which to base whether statutory rape can be pursued or not.
For California, the brief but full discussion on the history on age of consent is:
During the latter part of the last century and the early part of the present one, attitudes towards sexual activity began to change in America and so did attitudes toward the age of consent. California was one of the first states to raise the age of consent. It raised it from ten to fourteen in 1889 and then from fourteen to sixteen in 1897. Then, in 1913, California again raised it from sixteen to eighteen.
Across the U.S. now, the current age of consent is 16 to 18.
Good deterrent for those who might have hard to control sexual urges, so they don’t risk jail, in exchange for a few moments of pleasure or exercise of power/control over a young person who could not give legal consent.
In reading the associated link, ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm,
let’s take Saudi Arabia, to pick one Muslim country, okay? Your source indicates NO age of consent, it just says “must be married”. In Iran, it says “none outside marriage”. In Yemen, it is blank. In Pakistan, it says “none!”. Readers of such data can draw their own conclusions.
Of course, there is this undeniable difference in systems, where, in a country like the U.S., there is separation of church and state, and in Muslim countries where there is none.
The context of our discussion is: did the Church ever have a teaching that promotes the taking of child brides? Do you see it in this article you offer? I don’t.
The next article you provided, roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm is about child marriage in the royal world of child empress Agnes of France (age 8) and boy Byzantium emperor Alexius II (age 13). It is true that the aristocracy of some cultures tend to use child marriage among different factions or states as a method to secure political ties between them. Families are able to cement political and/or financial ties by having their children inter-marry.
It’s a fascinating story, but I don’t see that it is about a child bride being taken by a much older male, forced into a marriage, with the blessing by the Church. If you have another source for your assertion that the Church blessed or did not oppose when Christians enter such unions, please provide the “proof” and I will gladly read it.
I offer you this link, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage discussing the social phenomena of child marriage in certain societies. Importantly, it says that an increase in the advocation of human rights, whether as women’s rights or as children’s rights, has caused the traditions of child marriage to decrease greatly as it was considered unfair and dangerous for the children.
As to your source, chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24, my reaction is the same as to the first article on age of consent.
Thank you, elwill, for the chance to discuss your opinion on child bridges. I hope you consider my respectful disagreement.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Oops, I meant child brides.Thank you, elwill, for the chance to discuss your opinion on child bridges. I hope you consider my respectful disagreement.
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elwill
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my point is clear , this issue wasn’t ever relegious point , this issue wasn’t ever seen as an immoral behaviour in your society 100 years ago .
in many muslims countries they raised the age of concent either ( here in egypt it’s 18 )
changing of age of concent in your society wasn’t even an inspiration from a church or holy ghost , it was merely secular law
let me emphasize that i didn’t mean to disqualify specific country , i’m sure that in the past and especialy 1400 years age , the marriage in such ages was very normal for all people including christians , it was very normal in judaism and jesus didn’t ever diregard it
'The ages of consent for sexual activity vary by jurisdiction across Europe. Spain sets its age of consent at 13 years**, the Vatican State at 12 years**,'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe
and who said to you mohammed (pbuh) promote any age for marriage , he married women in various ages , but he never promote specific ages over another
we have many ahadeeth when our prophet promote us to seek some aspects considering the marriage , the age wasn’t ever one of these aspects
i have no problem with your disagreement , it was nice to talking with youThank you, elwill, for the chance to discuss your opinion on child brides. I hope you consider my respectful disagreement.
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planten
Guest
Sam_777;6536985:
Some good answers have been given by elwill.Haven’t you heard of discrimination.
I like your sense of humor, Sam_777.
Seriously, why don’t Muslims heed this Qu’ran teaching, for example:
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.](Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)
Muslims should abide by it. It is a must. But your swaying away from your religion and some politics of the world affairs makes its impact on Muslims too. The rest is provided by the bad, ignorant leadership of the Muslims.
There is no punishment for apostacy in islam. It is all made up rules/ laws of the bad ignorant leadership of the Muslims. There is not even a slight punishment for apostacy in islam in peace time. But during a war, the case may be different specially when a war is going on the basis of difference of religions.
The prophet Muhamamd, while he was on death bed, was saying to his close associates " I am afraid you will not do justice to the minorities (meaning, people of other faiths)".
The life of Muhamamd is clean, as it is in the Quran. To learn about muhammad, one has to read the Quran. And to compare things with the inner nature of man and other natural laws.
Islam is the most natural religion. Consider the good and bad things and the inner natural desires of mankind, it is all described in the Quran.
Now cathoilcs are asking why are the christians not allowed to preach or practice in the Muslim countries. We see the major part of the preaching of the catholics is not to teach and preach their bible. It is to blame and abuse the prophet Muhammad.
How is it possible that it should be allowed in Muslim countries?? If the christians take oath that they will not abuse any one but they will simply give the good points of their faith to people, nobody will stop them from preaching in muslim countries.
They try to pick things from man made Hadith and try to impinge the whole religion of Islam on that man made quote. that is wrong. Islam is not in hadith. it is primarily in the Quran.
there too 9in Quran) the catholics try to find fault with the fighting verses. Even though those verses are to fight against the guilty people. those verses are not to fight agianst any peaceful innocent person. They are to fight against those who try to fight, those who try to kill. They are to fight against the kafirs who are the open (manifest) enemy of any faith.
That is a problem with the christians that they, instead of preaching their good points from the bible, they try to criticize islam. that is not fair. It is better to avoid such situation and bar the christians from preaching in Muslim countries.
There is no compulsion in religion. (verse 2:256) islam allows peaceful preaching to all faiths and demands such a facility for itself too.
it was the christians (catholics) who had killed the peaceful unarmed muslim traders who were preaching in the nearby christain states in early Islam. the khalifah at madinah demanded an explanation for that unjustified killing. in reply, there was notice for war from the christian state.
that is how the initial conflicts started. Islam allows and demands right of peaceful preaching.
i admit that the present day scholars of Islam do not allow such things in many countries. there are some misunderstandings too.
.
There are many Muslims who are misled in theology. their leaders are mostly political leaders,like at the time of Jesus. There is much similarity between the present day Muslims and the jews of the time of Jesus. That should explain most of the problems and the questions being raised by the christians today. That is why the Muslism are suffering today.
The best thing the Muslim immigrants can do in USA and Europe is to be a very peaceful law abiding citizen of the state. He/she should never tolerate lawlessness or criminal activity, even has to suffer some trouble. he/she should try to bear the abuse from the christians too. I know it is difficult to tolerate. But Muslims should try to be patient there in foreign countries.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
I understand the scenario you gave. Patricide does not happen in a vacuum. But the justification you give is inter-family and anecdotal, with no specificity or detail.can you imagine yourself reading an address for article in big font " the son killed his father "
what will you say in your mind about this son , may be you will curse him
but what about if you read deeply about the details of the case and find out that the father for example was hitting the mother very harshly and while the good kid trying to protect his mother , he killed the father
will you change your openion about the son , may be after reading the details from all of it’s sides you will pray for this killer to not condemned for his crime , may be you will justfy his act , right !
InSearchofGrace . these sites are not honest in transmition the facts , there are main objectives and agenda for such sites , believe me , mention the other half of the case probably ignored , so that i can not say it’s false nor can i say it’s correct
it’s just out of context , details and it’s just half of the truth .
answer me this
isn’t thiere any persecuation for muslims in europe ?
if yes , then can i say that muslims suffere persecuation in europe in such way which will make you think that it’s tradition in europe to perseuate the muslims ?
existence of such treatment for muslims in the west dosn’t mean that persecuation be practiced by the entire westerner
and if majority of westerner are christians dosn’t mean that it’s teaching of christianity to persecuate the muslims .
How surprising you are quick to discredit the site I provided. If you drop down the menus on 2007 and 2008 menus, it will lead you to the state.gov site - that is the U.S. Department of State. It will give you detailed reports, complete with the government policies in Egypt, and background of incidents of persecution of Christians there. The incidents are not just a few.
The site, by the way, has photos and video clips of the present Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, including one of her most recent trip to Egypt a few days ago (April 16, 2010). By clicking the tabs, anybody can view the photos and video clips, listen to or read her briefings and policy issues of the department, etc.
We already cleared that we are talking about the lack of religious liberty of minority Christians in a number (not all) of Muslim majority countries. It so happened that you asked how or why I included Egypt and I gave you my source.
And then you say it is not honest in transmitting the facts, tells stories out of context, just half of the truth? Why don’t you read the information first, and then give me and the posters following this thread your opinion.
You commented about existing persecution of Muslims in Western Europe, where they are not the majority (not yet, anyway!), as not reflective of practice by the entire European majority, or the teaching of Christianity to persecute the Muslims. I appreciate your saying so, because there is no Bible verse, no Christian or Catholicism to persecute Muslims that you can find. Pope John Paul II started and Pope Benedict XVI continues with efforts promoting peace with Muslim countries so that Christians can be free to worship in these countries.
The Vatican has always been sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians in their struggle for a homeland. Both Popes JP II and Benedict disagreed with the American policy in Iraq. After the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Pope wrote President Bush that he was against it. Did the Muslim world take note of this?
The history of the spread of Islam, the Crusades, to the present state of conflict, is long and complicated. Is there persecution of Muslims in Western Europe right now? Sure, because we read of news of incidents of persecution in France, Germany and U.K, for example. These episodes of persecution reflect Islamophobia, IMO, especially after September 11, 2001.
Europeans have moved away from being religious, so these persecutions do not stem from religious beliefs, but from their way of life that they want to preserve after WWII, that they do not want to let the immigrant population change or disturb. That said, Muslims were able to build mosques, free to worship in them now, bring their Qu’ran around, free to assemble, etc. They do have religious liberty that their Christian counterparts in the countries in the Middle East that we have covered do not have.
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InSearchofGrace
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should read as
…no Christian or Catholic teaching to persecute Muslims that you can find.
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InSearchofGrace
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This is silly, Elwill. It’s like you were asked how one shows justice. And you answered by just defining the word ‘justice’, saying it’s the quality of being just.
After giving me a non-response the first two times, you simply re-stated the Qu’ran verses in plainer words, at best, as your answer.
You still did not articulate how the verses are applied to the question of Christians not being able to exercise their faith in the mentioned Muslim countries. It’s the same question of Jakasaki in Post #3 except she specified Saudi Arabia.
Verses you cited:
8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
The peaceful minority Christians are not driving Muslims (who comprise the majority in the country) away from their homes. The Christians are not waging war with Muslims for following Islam. They are not initiating hostilities with Muslims. The Christians want to be able to practice their own faith but they are not free to do so. Therefore, the Muslims are not dealing with the Christians justly or are not showing kindness to them.
I’m not giving you a pass, elwill. But I see we have a new participant on the thread, planten. I still have to read his post. I hope he has something in it that I am seeking in answer to the question.
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