please , don’t confuse me
You are right in that it was secular law in the West, not the Church, which dictated the age of consent for sexual activity with a girl. No denying that child marriages existed in aristocracy and other classes across cultures in the world centuries ago. I took issue with the implication that the Church, in its early history and later, endorsed or blessed forced marriages of adult men with pre-pubertal girls. Society changed
, recognizing that the practice is unfair and dangerous to children.Fair enough, elwill.and who said to you mohammed (pbuh) promote any age for marriage , he married women in various ages , but he never promote specific ages over another
we have many ahadeeth when our prophet promote us to seek some aspects considering the marriage , the age wasn’t ever one of these aspects
Why would a Muslim want to live in the USA?
You were referring to this verse
That’s good to hear. So please explain Sunni Hadiths not consistent with what you say, such as,
Please cite your source, because I researched Muhammad’s last words or while on his death bead, and also his last sermon, but I did not find what you quoted.
Thank you for your explanation above. It covers (somewhat) the answer to the question I posed to elwill.
However, some Quranic exegetes state that Qur’an 2:256 has been abrogated by the following verses:
Indeed. We can not change 1300 years of history, with conflict continuing to this day in 2010.
You have a point there.
I heartily agree. Abuses against Muslims in the Western countries should be addressed by peaceful means.
According to both Bukhari & Muslim (below) Quran#9 is the last chapter revealed to Muhammed, so most replaced instructions can be found there, such as:
Okay, let’s take Saudi Arabia where proselytizing Muslim is illegal and Egypt (your country) where, officially, there in no legal ban on the activity. The Eqyptian Constitution and Civil/Penal Codes do not prohibit proselytizing (converting to another faith) by Christians, but police have harassed those accused of proselytizing on charges of ridiculing or insulting heavenly religions or inciting sectarian strife. (Btw, I still want your reply to my Post # 39, discussing the situation in Egypt.) So, even if peaceful proselytizing of Muslims, which is officially allowed, do take place in Eqypt, as you maintain, the Christians suffer effective limitations, if not persecution.
You make a blanket statement that Christians who are in the Muslim countries would use such tactics, lying about Islam and Muhammad, to get converts from the ignorant and the poor. If that is true, those Christians would indeed be asking for trouble. Don’t you think it more the case of Muslims just being hypersensitive and quick to make the judgment to stop any fraternizing among Christians and Muslims because they maintain that fraternizing with non-believers is against Qu’ran teachings? And that Muslims actually fear the appeal of Christianity?
Yes, there is much to learn and understand from where I stand.
Elwill, I do not think you or your peaceful Muslim brothers are awful. And I did, on this thread, ask why, too many many whys, actually.
Determine for me these limitation which Christians suffer , then we can discuss clear points
My comment was about the part of criticizing islam which you refered to with planten
anyone can use relegious concepts in vain to justify his acts
Finally an admittance to how others are persecuted in Islamic countries. An acknowledgement that it is very dangerous follows suit with Sharia laws say. It also follows along with all the lawsuits that are against people if they criticize islam even in our Western countries.
This recent piece of news, link provided,
and asked
What can you say about the news clip, Elwill? Why can’t Dina and her father just be allowed to practice their faith? In reading it, unless you have more information on this piece of news, it does not sound that somebody twisted their arms to convert.
Of course, the limitations are not felt by you because you are a Muslim, you are not a Christian. Wouldn’t your comment be different if you were Christian?
Indeed, Elwill,
We can go back to religious liberty or lack thereof in Egypt or the mentioned Muslim countries.so we will talking now about problems of apostates muslims in egypt , not about persecuation of christians in egypt
did the government prohibited her to go to church or read in the bible ? i didn’t note this one
my openion will not be different , i allready believe that they have their rights to change their name and relegion
i have to confess that history of egypt , we have two **and only two **cases with this problem " getting new idintity paper "
i really don’t know if insulting other relegions is encouraged by the teaching of your relegion , but seems to me that you encouraging it[con’t]
Indeed, Elwill,
Respectfully, for Christians in the minority, to verbally criticize (in mixed company) or criticize in print for publication in a Muslim country, would be akin to doing what suicide bombers do, not exactly Christian M.O. So it’s hard to believe how minority Christians would or could do this.
However, criticism of Islam and Muhammad is not only dangerous in Muslim countries. Muslim leaders have made it dangerous by calling fatwas on critics OUTSIDE Islamic countries, where freedom of speech is protected; hence, its followers resort to terrorist acts to carry out fatwas.
Further, it is dangerous for Muslims and non-Muslims alike whose positions and words were or are deemed disrespectful or mocking Islam, Islamic practice or Muhammad.
There are outspoken former Muslims who believe that Islam is the primary cause for what they see as the mistreatment of minority groups in Muslim countries and communities. Almost all of them now live in the West, many under assumed names because of a legitimate danger to themselves. Many have had death threats made against them by Islamic groups and individuals:
Islam has been criticized as being intolerant and violent towards its critics.
- Salman Rushdie author of The Satanic Verses.
- Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has focused on the plight of Muslim women, saying that “they aspire to live by their faith as best they can, but their faith robs them of their rights.”
- Nyamko Sabuni, who is the Minister of Integration and Gender Equality in Sweden and advocates banning the veil and instituting compulsory gynecological examinations for schoolgirls to guard against female genital mutilation, stating, “I will never accept that women and girls are oppressed in the name of religion” and declaring it not her intent to reform Islam but only to denounce “unacceptable” practices. She has received death threats, requiring 24-hour police protection, for her views.
- Ali Sina The founder of Faith Freedom International.
- Ibn Warraq a secularist author, intellectual, scholar and founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society and a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry specializing in Koranic criticism.
- Nonie Darwish, who founded the pro-Israel web site Arabs for Israel and stated that “Islam is more than a religion, it is a totalitarian state” She is also the author of Now They Call Me Infidel: Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel, and the War on Terror.
- Irshad Manji, a Canadian journalist and author of The Trouble with Islam.
- Wafa Sultan, who has pointed out that the prophet of Islam said: “I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and his Messenger.” Sultan has called on Islamic teachers to review their writings and teachings and remove every call to fight people who do not believe as Muslims. Dr. Sultan is now in hiding, fearing for her life and the safety of her family after appearing on the al-Jazeera TV show.
- Ahmed H. al-Rahim, founder of American Islamic Congress, who says that the Mosques in America are teaching values of hate and not peace.
Source of list: search.com/reference/Criticism_of_Islam
- German professor Christoph Luxenberg feels compelled to work under a pseudonym to protect himself because of fears that a new book on the origins of the Qur’an may make him a target for violence.
- Hashem Aghajari, an Iranian university professor, was initially sentenced to death because of a speech that criticized some of the present Islamic practices in Iran being in contradiction with the original practices and ideology of Islam, and particularly for stating that Muslims were not “monkeys” and “should not blindly follow” the clerics. The sentence was later commuted to three years in jail, and he was released in 2004 after serving two years of that sentence.
- Fatwas calling for execution have been issued against author Salman Rushdie and activist Taslima Nasreen.
- On November 2, 2004, Dutch Filmmaker Theo van Gogh was assassinated by Dutch born Mohammed Bouyeri for producing the 10 minute film Submission critical of the abusive treatment of women within Islam. The author of the screenplay, Ayaan Hirsi Ali entered into hiding immediately following the assassination.
- On September 30, 2005, the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published editorial cartoons, many of which depicted the Islamic prophet Mohammed. The publication was intended to contribute to the debate regarding criticism of Islam and self-censorship - objectives which manifested themselves in the public outcry from Muslim communities within Denmark and the subsequent apology by the paper. However, the controversy deepened when further examples of the cartoons were reprinted in newspapers in more than fifty other countries. This led to protests across the Muslim world, some of which escalated into violence, including setting fire to the Norwegian and Danish Embassies in Syria, and the storming of European buildings and desecration of the Danish and German flags in Gaza City.
- On September 19, 2006 French writer and philosophy teacher Robert Redeker wrote an editorial for Le Figaro, a French conservative newspaper, in which he attacked Islam and Muhammad, writing: “Pitiless war leader, pillager, butcher of Jews and polygamous, this is how Mohammed is revealed by the Qur’an”; he received death threats and went into hiding.
Sorry, but you gave me an opening, Elwill
The news is about persecution of Christians, and I did not figure that persecution of converted Christians (apostates), as a talking point, is out of limits in our discussion. Does religious freedom only encompass Christians bringing their bible or going to Church?so we will talking now about problems of apostates muslims in egypt , not about persecuation of christians in egypt
i don’t deny the case , i will tell you my personel openion honestly , but i just want to emphasize that we changing the subject a little bit
Dina’s father said he had a vision and he was attracted to the parables that Jesus Christ taught, prompting his conversion. Dina embraced the same faith of her father. Does this sound like there was illegal proselytizing involved and they were told lies about Islam or Muhammad?
Father and daughter are unable to go to the same Church twice fearing kidnap and torture, not idle threats, if they do not revert to Islam. They are already being subjected to harassment; hence, they are in hiding. Would you not regard this as persecution, a situation that renders going to church regularly or bringing a bible moot?
Maybe because they (secret Christian converts) know the predicament of coming out in the open, as Dina’s father did?i have to confess that history of egypt , we have two **and only two **cases with this problem " getting new idintity paper "
That’s unfortunate because if you really wish to debate, you can easily pick just one report of persecution in the list and tell me your point of view. And we can go to the next report, ONLY, if you are so inclined.
No, Elwill. My religion does not teach insulting other religions. I’m sorry that you felt that with my post. It was not my intention, and I understand your reaction. I had it coming by giving a list of individuals who have been targeted for having criticized Islam. A sentence or two declaring the same thing would have sufficed.i really don’t know if insulting other relegions is encouraged by the teaching of your relegion , but seems to me that you encouraging it
whatever it’s prohibited in our relegion
i know that it’s not your intension and i know either that teaching of christianity dosn’t encourage that
16-125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
peace to you eitherPeace to you.