Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Gorgias]

I don’t presume anything… I ask.

Yeah, but your question presumes that there could be a conflict.

That’s what I asking about, if the Catechism says something, but its not back up with a Bible verse. then what? Do I accept it as the true, as something that should be done to receive grace because its written in the Catechism?

Yes, if what’s written there comes from the Deposit of Faith. In this case, if it’s not explicitly Scriptural, then it comes from Apostolic Teaching.

Back to crazy example someone tells me about the 10 jumping jacks, then I’d want to see the Bible verse that backs that up… then I know I better start jumping before confessing.

@Gorgias… I never said everything is in the Bible, but what is in there is the truth.

I’m having a hard time reconciling those two statements: on one hand, you concede that “[not] everything is in the Bible”, but on the other hand, you “want to see the Bible verse that backs up [any particular doctrinal claim].” Those two conflict with each other, right?

 

[JGD]

In the almost 2000 years since the New Testament documents were written and preached, there were times when contradicting opinions/understandings arose and began to be spread.
Eventually, the Pope and bishops of the Church would gather in council to determine what the correct meaning of those disputed Bible passages should be. (eg. heresies on Jesus’ nature; on Trinity; on original sin; on baptism; on eucharist; - and on and on and on.) These determinations are what we call the doctrines of the Catholic faith.

So, the Bible records the original teaching;
the Catechism contains the Biblical teachings, clarification on their meaning, and the doctrinal teachings of the Church promulgated as need arose. Knowing Catholic teaching can make Scripture passages just light up! It also helps prevent one from understanding a Biblical passage incorrectly; it’s like a protecting hedge or wall to keep one from falling into error. A marvelous gift Our Lord provided when He established His Church on the rock of Peter and gave the keys of the kingdom to him (and his successors to that office). (Mt. 16:16-19)

 

[ccmcmg]

I use my catechism right along with my Bible. The text and the footnotes cover most of what I’m usually looking for, or I can quickly Google the reference.

 

[annad347]

@phil19034, yes it makes sense… a little, but it kind of sounds like its okay to disagree with some things in the Catechism.

All your questions would be answered in an instant…

is this not the Catechism? I’m trying to read it.

 

[annad347]

Yeah, but your question presumes that there could be a conflict.

I gave an example of what I meant by my question.

I’ve never read the Catechism, except for the few times it was quoted to me because a question I asked, so I would have no idea if there are any conflicts between it and the Bible.

Yes, if what’s written there comes from the Deposit of Faith. In this case, if it’s not explicitly Scriptural, then it comes from Apostolic Teaching.

Are those inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, are they in the Bible?

I’m having a hard time reconciling those two statements: on one hand, you concede that “[not] everything is in the Bible”, but on the other hand, you “want to see the Bible verse that backs up [any particular doctrinal claim].” Those two conflict with each other, right?

statement to two different comments.

1st was about how I understand and use the Bible post 54.
2nd was a comment from you in post 53. The one that asked where is it written that everything is in the Bible?

 

[annad347]

…If my confessor tells me to do 10 jumping jacks, that would be an obligation; but the Catechism cannot do that. We take what is taught and apply it according to our conscience.

So though our faith is in the only true place it needs to be, which is God.

We hope that because of their connection to the originals, what is written in the Catechism is a true understanding of God.

Why would your confessor telling you to do something be an obligation, especially if its one that isn’t written in the Catechism or Scripture?

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes, that’s it! However, the online edition is missing the alphabetical index at the back, making it harder to use. I would still suggest that, as soon as you get the opportunity, you take a good look at the print edition.

 

[stoplooklisten]

What exactly is it and is it equal to the bible?

Good question.

At age 7, our class went through preparation for first Holy Communion with a children’s version of the Baltimore Catechism. It was great and we learned much. It was a great summary of the Catholic and Christian faith. The Catholic nun who taught us was great and her example built our faith.

I have studied through the entire Bible and the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church as an adult. But, not everyone does that. Jesus Christ established the Church. The Church teaches us and leads us and serves us via the Mass, the Sacraments and more. The Bible and the Catechism are important but they are instruments or tools that the Church uses.

 

[Dovekin]

Our faith is always in the Lord.

As Catholics, we believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth. When anyone is teaching the faith, the Holy Spirit is active. This is especially true for bishops, who are responsible for teaching. The Catechism, as a collaborative effort to produce a synthesis of Church teaching, is based on all the teaching and preaching that its authors have done. Is it free from error? Probably not. Do I know where it errs? Not me. I hope the Spirit will continue to guide me through the work of the authors.

Confession to a priest is a personal encounter with Christ in the person of the priest. What he assigns as a penance is assigned by Christ. It should be appropriate for the person confessing. If, in his wisdom, a priest thinks I should do 10 jumping jacks I have the opportunity to ask why and to perhaps understand. The priest knows what he should be doing and thinks this is appropriate. The authors of the Catechism have no particular knowledge of me so they cannot make those kinds of decisions. Bishops and priests involved have lots of experience of people like me, so they can recommend jumping jacks, but they cannot oblige me without knowing me.

 

[Gorgias]

I’ve never read the Catechism, except for the few times it was quoted to me because a question I asked, so I would have no idea if there are any conflicts between it and the Bible.

Fair enough. The Catholic response, then, is “there aren’t conflicts between the two; the canon of Scripture and the doctrinal information related in the Catechism are the two parts of the ‘Deposit of the Faith’, and as such, are in harmony.”

Are those inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, are they in the Bible?

Actually, apostolic teaching gave us the canon of the Bible, not the other way around.

In any case, we assert that Jesus made a promise of infallibility in the teaching of Church doctrine. So, yes: there is an assurance of divine protection for Church teaching. (By the way, your question of ‘inspiration’, itself, is sketchier than you might think: even though the Scriptures, themselves, are inspired and inerrant… there’s no guarantee from God that everyone who picks up a Bible will interpret it correctly. So… just having a Bible (and a pulpit) is no guarantee of having correct teaching!)

statement to two different comments.

Fair enough. Yet, they do oppose one another!

 

[phil19034]

@phil19034, yes it makes sense… a little, but it kind of sounds like its okay to disagree with some things in the Catechism.

I don’t know if I would say it like that.

I would say that there are a FEW temporal issues where the Church has a current position, but has not declared it as dogma or doctrine AND has left it ultimately to prudential judgement for each Catholic.

Prudential judgement typically comes into how to apply Church teaching to gray areas of human life. The Church often (but not always) gives us a default position, but still leaves it to prudential judgement.
The application of the death penalty is a perfect example. How to best combat poverty is another example.

God Bless

 

[annad347]

The Church teaches us and leads us and serves us via the Mass, the Sacraments and more. The Bible and the Catechism are important but they are instruments or tools that the Church uses.

The Bible is more then just a tool, isn’t it? I mean the Church couldn’t or rather shouldn’t teach anything outside of the Bible?

I hope the Spirit will continue to guide me through the work of the authors.

That makes sense. Actually, your entire post made sense especially the part about confession.

So… just having a Bible (and a pulpit) is no guarantee of having correct teaching!)

Which is why Catholics hope that because of their connection to the originals, what is written in the Catechism is a true understanding of God and His Church.

Though isn’t God our guarantee to knowing correct teaching. I mean if you didn’t know the truth about God, then how would you know anything that anyone tells us about Him is the truth. God fills us with the Holy Spirit so we know the difference between correct teaching and false teaching. God is out guarantee to correct teaching.

I don’t have to come here to learn about the Catechism. I can go directly to God, I can pray about it, ask God for understanding… but I like to hear what others think about things… so I ask.

Besides my ignorance is helping someone else fulfill God’s will for their life. God does want us to teach each other the truth.

The Church often (but not always) gives us a default position, but still leaves it to prudential judgement…

The Church or the Catechism, you kind of made it sound like the two are the same? The Catechism is defining church teachings…

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Bible is part of Sacred Tradition which Catechism tries to explain. In first centuries of Christianity Bible was not even compiled and people were taught mostly from Old Testament. Bible is Word of God indeed. However, New Testament was written 2K years ago in different culture and in different language by people who didn’t speak it as primary one. It is super easy to be misunderstood (for example passage about turning other cheek means something entirely different it seems in our culture) and is NOT exhaustive for our beliefs. Bible does not contain everything.

Now Catechism is written in language easier to understand and with cultures of the world in mind. It explains also things stemming from Sacred Tradition other than from Sacred Scripture. It is fallible but compiled by people who really know what they are doing so in the end it isn’t untrustworthy just because it isn’t God’s Word directly. We trust people other than Our Lord and we trust texts other than Bible.

Now about death penalty change… “human understanding changed” is a weak argument. It suggests relativism (truth changing with human understanding). Actually what evolved was reasoning behind teaching. It was ok to apply death penalty to protect society if there is no other way to protect society. Nowadays however there is almost never situation where you can’t just imprison the guilty party. Teaching in it’s fullest hasn’t changed a single bit- what changed are it’s implications in current age.

Church couldn’t or rather shouldn’t teach anything outside of the Bible?

Not really. Church is guided by Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is not limited to Bible. First Christians taught things outside Bible… as Bible wasn’t even written yet. When Paul was writing letters he didn’t know he was writing parts of Bible. They were regular teaching letters for him. Bible is integral part of Sacred Tradition but not the only part. In the end nobody even know what is and is not Bible until later centuries. It was told first Christians to follow what was told to them by letter or word. First Christians largely taught from Didache (Teachings of the Twelve) which isn’t even part of the Bible (and is by no means exhaustive list of Church beliefs either).

 

[stoplooklisten]

The Bible is more then just a tool, isn’t it? I mean the Church couldn’t or rather shouldn’t teach anything outside of the Bible?

When Jesus Christ established the Church, there was no New Testament. Anyone who wants to follow the Old Testament should re-establish the Temple in Jerusalem and follow the Old Testament law.

The Church is more than a set of doctrines (derived from the Bible).

The Church is the living, Mystical Body connected to the Divine Head, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Vine. We are the branches. We are joined to Him and abide in him. The Bible is very important and the source of much but the Bible can be just dead letters on a page or screen. The Holy Spirit gives life and power to the Church. Jesus Christ is alive and lives for ever more. The Church is living.

 

[phil19034]

The Church or the Catechism, you kind of made it sound like the two are the same? The Catechism is defining church teachings…

No, I meant the Church. The Catechism only reflects Church teaching.

 

[Justin_Mary]

My mom told me once to trust the Bible is to trust God. I trust my mom and God.

Personally, I find I trust myself too much & it’s so easy to reconcile in my mind that I’m hearing God & trusting God, when I am truly serving my own conceit. So if I’m wanting to prove my point I can point to the Bible & say to my wife, “ it says here you are to be subject to me & do what I say.”

But the Church teaches us to interpret the Bible as a whole. So I should take into account that Jesus, whom I’m supposed to imitate, says, “I came to serve, not to be served.” After washing his apostle’s feet.

In this example we can see how my interpretation of the Bible contrasts with Church teaching, even though I do not present the Church’s interpretation of scripture.

This is Tradition, what the Church teaches, how God is to be interpreted in our lives.

I’m not telling anyone how the Bible should be used; I can tell you how I use the Bible.

Back to crazy example someone tells me about the 10 jumping jacks, then I’d want to see the Bible verse that backs that up… then I know I better start jumping before confessing.

The CCC does not tell us how to confess. It teaches us what confession, reconciliation, penance is & provides references for the teaching. The references may be scriptural, from the Church doctors, from Papal documents, from ancient or contemporary liturgies, etc…

If you ever have a question about what the church teaches you can find a summary in the catechism which will lead you to the source documents for further study.

Back when I started researching the difference between churches & denominations I bought the CCC to find out what Catholics believe. I found out there were a lot of misconceptions.

This forum is a great resource, but I’m sure you’ve noticed a lot of opinion get passed on as truth.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, they call their rulings “opinions”. Yet, they’re authoritative, and so, they’re different than anyone else’s ‘opinion’.

Correct. A “majority opinion” becomes the binding law of the land, even though the term of art used is “opinion”.

 

[Gorgias]

The Bible is more then just a tool, isn’t it?

It’s an important tool, but yeah… it’s a means to an end.

Did Jesus tell the apostles, “here’s this book; give it to folks and ask them to read it and use it as their rule of faith”? Or, did he tell the apostles, “go and teach everything I taught you”? (It’s the latter.) So, the Bible is one means that the Church utilized … after it had already been teaching the Gospel for 30-40 years!

I mean the Church couldn’t or rather shouldn’t teach anything outside of the Bible?

Absolutely it should! The Bible itself admits that it doesn’t contain all that Jesus said or did, and it reports that “teach everything I taught you” was Jesus’ command to the apostles! By that very definition, the Bible cannot be the sole source of teaching!

Though isn’t God our guarantee to knowing correct teaching.

OK, then… how does God guarantee it? I can quote you Gospel text where Jesus identifies that it is the Church that is the cornerstone, and it is the Church that is protected!

I don’t have to come here to learn about the Catechism. I can go directly to God, I can pray about it, ask God for understanding

And how do you know that what you decide is correct? How do you know that you haven’t “misheard” God or misinterpreted him? You can ask all day long… but how do you know you’re right?

 

[stoplooklisten]

The Bible is more then just a tool, isn’t it? I mean the Church couldn’t or rather shouldn’t teach anything outside of the Bible?

In the first century church, the church became established without Bibles and without catechisms that we have today.

 

[annad347]

… Holy Spirit is not limited to Bible

The Holy Spirit is God. God is the Church. The Bible is Word of God.

… It is fallible but compiled by people who really know what they are doing so in the end it isn’t untrustworthy just because it isn’t God’s Word directly.

But its fallible… so… how trustworthy could they be if its fallible?

… We trust people other than Our Lord and we trust texts other than Bible.

I wasn’t aware Catholics did that… interesting. Who should we trust other than the Lord?

No, I meant the Church. The Catechism only reflects Church teaching.

Which is an explanation of the Catholic church’s beliefs based on their understanding of what God wants us know… I’m starting to understand what that means… I think.

Personally, I find I trust myself too much & it’s so easy to reconcile in my mind that I’m hearing God & trusting God, when I am truly serving my own conceit.

Something I struggle with everyday. To know I follow God’s will and not my own. To know I’m understand God’s teachings and not my own. To know I’m placing my trust in God, not myself.

I hope it’s also an everyday struggle for the people whom God has placed as leaders in His Church.

This forum is a great resource, but I’m sure you’ve noticed a lot of opinion get passed on as truth.

Very true… but this form also gives me great material to research… that is very helpful.