Quran 5:116

[planten]

I wondered about this when I read Sister Amy’s posts about how only God can grant us what we request. This seems very strange to me, as I do not only pray to ask God to do things for me. I am not implying that Muslims do only that, but this seems like a strange reason to refuse to pray to saints, since so much prayer is not about “getting what we ask for” or however you want to put it. We pray because He is great, we pray because His holy and perfect sacrifice has redeemed mankind, we pray because we love Him and want to always be in communication with Him…oh, there are so many reasons that don’t involve goals outside of the prayer! Sometimes, prayer itself is the goal. It is an intrinsic good.

**The problem is again in the word “Praying”. When you pray to God, surely You say “O, God, please cure my mother of illness…” or something to that kind… But when you are praying to saints or Mary, do you say similar words “O Mary, please cure my mother of illness…”???

If you do not say such thing then it is alright.**

Here is the “Hail Mary” said during the Rosary:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

**There are some comlications. Of course not to dispute it with you now, but calling Mary the mother of God while she is the real mother of Jesus, hs to be justified. Why not people call her the mother of Jesus, please.

Then asking her to pray for you, say, to heal your mother from illness, how would that be said? In what words?

The rest of the words ( Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus** ) is no problem. It is alright, in praise of Mary. That is good.

Notice how all we asking for is that Mary pray for us, because we believe that she can and does. We are not honoring her as God, or saying that she can grant our wishes. We are honoring her as the blessed mother with this prayer.

**It appears that you are not worshipping her by those words that you have quoted. But there will be other acts of veneration and worship of Mary by adoration and kissing her statue etc.

We Muslims do not agree to that. Also we do not agree to any statue business and any one calling a person who has passed away. They do not hear us and cannot do anything now.

But that is our belief. Your belief is different. So let us all keep to our own beliefs hoping that each one of us is right, in some way. Your post has been a good reply (informative).**

 

[dzheremi]

The problem is again in the word “Praying”. When you pray to God, surely You say “O, God, please cure my mother of illness…” or something to that kind… But when you are praying to saints or Mary, do you say similar words “O Mary, please cure my mother of illness…”???

Yes, we will pray in supplication like this to God, but when we pray to saints it is also as supplication TO GOD. “(Saint name), pray for me that I _____”. Often times, we will pray through a specific saint because of their special connection to our personal situation (as the Muslim did in inJESUS’ story), but it is always TO GOD - that they pray for us in whatever our situation is. You say this is wrong because the saints are not “alive”, but we obviously disagree.

There are some comlications. Of course not to dispute it with you now, but calling Mary the mother of God while she is the real mother of Jesus, hs to be justified. Why not people call her the mother of Jesus, please.

 

[Jay53]

This thread was not started by a Muslim, was it? It seems to me to be like a “straw man” argument, for Catholics to say they don’t worship Mary, that the Qur’an says they do, and then try to prove it means the Qur’an is wrong.

I can answer this one! No, I am not a Muslim!

Not sure about the “straw man” argument to prove the Quran is wrong with regard to this verse? (BTW, I don’t think the whole Quran is wrong ) I haven’t really received a conclusive answer to this verse - unless I missed a post somewhere (which is quite possible ). I’m still reading the verse as a misrepresentation of the Trinity by Muhammad with a “strange” question being asked by Allah.

To me, it seems the same as if a Christian wrote a book that said "On the Last Day God will ask Muhammad, did you say to the people, “Kill all non-Muslims and those who don’t worship you?” And obviously Muhammad would say “No”. Well, Muhammad didn’t say this and Muslims don’t believe it, so why would God ask this? To me, this is the same type of question in that Quranic verse.

 

[Christ_Is_Life]

If God is going to grant your prayer, then you don’t need to go through a saint.

If God is not going to grant it, then going through a saint won’t help.

That’s a statement you are making, like you have some kind of authority. This can simply be disproved by the amount of people who have prayed to saints and recieved miraculous intercession.

Just today I was watching EWTN and there was this lady who was diagnosed with cancer, when they opened her up they found that it was 90% advanced, they administered a drug but there was no way she was going to make a recovery. She went away to a dead priests grave, she prayed to him asking if he would pray for her, from that moment the cancer began to miraculously reverse until she made a full healing.

Doctors were stunned, the drug she was given has failed in all other cases so you can cross that one off your list. Th catholic church is very stringent in investigating these thing, later this priest was beatified as a saint.

She was interviewed many years later in the year 2000 and in good health.

How do you explain that? We believe God does the healing, but if it’s wrong or sinful to pray to saints for intercession why did God grant her healing? Is he playing mind games with us?

 

[sedonaman]

I really have no idea what this has to do with the present discussion, and I think my post has been taken out of the context of its proper thread.

I have found that one has to understand the basics of a religion before any meaningful discussion on theology can be had; otherwise, the discussion goes nowhere.

 

[Sister_Amy]

We do not pray through saints in an attempt to influence what God will or will not grant us. That was the whole point of my previous post. We pray through the saints because the supplication of Christians both alive on Earth and existing eternally in heaven (the saints) is pleasing to God.

From the page I linked you to earlier (emphasis added):

(I’m sorry, I didn’t go visit the link.)

This post makes an excellent point, if you are praying to saints to try to please God.

Can you tell me why a God who loves you would want you to talk to someone else instead of to Him? Muslims believe that praying to God is worship, the essence of worship. (There’s a hadith to the effect that du’a or supplication is the bone-marrow of worship.) So Muslims pray because it has basically one of three outcomes. First, that Allah will answer the supplication in this life.
If not, then Allah might grant the supplication in the next life. And if not that, then it will count as a purification for sins!

But it’s basically senseless to direct prayers to anyone else. Allah says And when My servants ask you, [O Muúammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided. (2:186)

 

[Sister_Amy]

I can answer this one! No, I am not a Muslim!

Not sure about the “straw man” argument to prove the Quran is wrong with regard to this verse? (BTW, I don’t think the whole Quran is wrong ) I haven’t really received a conclusive answer to this verse - unless I missed a post somewhere (which is quite possible ). I’m still reading the verse as a misrepresentation of the Trinity by Muhammad with a “strange” question being asked by Allah.

To me, it seems the same as if a Christian wrote a book that said "On the Last Day God will ask Muhammad, did you say to the people, “Kill all non-Muslims and those who don’t worship you?” And obviously Muhammad would say “No”. Well, Muhammad didn’t say this and Muslims don’t believe it, so why would God ask this? To me, this is the same type of question in that Quranic verse.

Suppose that the worst possible sin is to worship something instead of God or along with God. Imagine if you are someone who instructed the people to worship him? For example, Pharaohs would declare themselves to be divine, right? Told the people to worship them. Think of the implications.

When people set something or someone up between them to worship, Allah will expose the falsehood on the Day of Judgment. People will see that the things they worshiped were powerless (i.e., idols) or that they never asked to be worshiped (like Jesus.)

 

[Sister_Amy]

That’s a statement you are making, like you have some kind of authority. This can simply be disproved by the amount of people who have prayed to saints and recieved miraculous intercession.

Just today I was watching EWTN and there was this lady who was diagnosed with cancer, when they opened her up they found that it was 90% advanced, they administered a drug but there was no way she was going to make a recovery. She went away to a dead priests grave, she prayed to him asking if he would pray for her, from that moment the cancer began to miraculously reverse until she made a full healing.

Doctors were stunned, the drug she was given has failed in all other cases so you can cross that one off your list. Th catholic church is very stringent in investigating these thing, later this priest was beatified as a saint.

She was interviewed many years later in the year 2000 and in good health.

How do you explain that? We believe God does the healing, but if it’s wrong or sinful to pray to saints for intercession why did God grant her healing? Is he playing mind games with us?

I think you might have missed my point.

I am saying that only God has the power to answer prayers. So if anybody’s prayer is answered, it’s answered by God. Because God hears it, no matter who the person asks. A person might have become ill, but yet God wills that the person’s health will improve. The person might pray and pray and pray exclusively to a wooden statue in his living room asking for better health. And when his health improves, he might say it was because he prayed to that wooden statue.

But his health improved only because of God’s will. Rather despite the idol worship, not because of it.

Same thing today–people might say and even believe they are healed because they prayed to some saint or did something silly. But they were healed because it was God’s will that they were healed. So they should have just asked God. Since whether they were healed or not, if they’d asked God, He would be pleased with them. If they asked someone else, then they are denying God’s power, which He showed by healing them. And so they will be punished for that (unless they realize their mistake and repent.)

 

[sedonaman]

To you praying is worshipping. To us, praying means communicating.

You see? Words do mean something different to Muslims from what they do to Christians.

 

[Reuben_J]

(I’m sorry, I didn’t go visit the link.)

This post makes an excellent point, if you are praying to saints to try to please God.

Can you tell me why a God who loves you would want you to talk to someone else instead of to Him? Muslims believe that praying to God is worship, the essence of worship. (There’s a hadith to the effect that du’a or supplication is the bone-marrow of worship.) So Muslims pray because it has basically one of three outcomes. First, that Allah will answer the supplication in this life.
If not, then Allah might grant the supplication in the next life. And if not that, then it will count as a purification for sins!

But it’s basically senseless to direct prayers to anyone else. Allah says And when My servants ask you, [O Muúammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided. (2:186)

While you may have a point there as you look at this through the prism of Islamic belief and teaching, Christianity is a different ball game altogether. It’s not a matter of whether God wants us to speak to him alone because he loves us. Remember God’s love is vertical as well as horizontal. Our love for him must be translated into our love for our fellow humans. Another important aspect of Christianity, at least from Catholic perspective is that all believers are one family of God. God is a family in the Holy Trinity; the believers are one big family whether dead or alive.

Without saying whether Christianity is right or Islam is wrong or vice versa, you really cannot apply Islamic doctrine and thought to critique Christianity because they are like apple and orange.

Therefore, yes, God wants us to speak to him which is what Christians do most of the time. God would also want members of his family to speak to each other which is what Christians do quite often. This does not contradict each other nor does it offend God to acknowledge that the deads that died in state of grace are with Him.

Again there is the difference in the understanding of worship in Christianity as opposed to Islam. Worship is adoration; putting and elevating God above all things. Intercession does not amount to that. Honestly I think Christians do have a more logical and reasonable understanding of worship as compared to Islam. So strict is your definition of worship that it always baffles me why Muslims need to kiss the Kaaba. So you see, Islam’s definition of worship is not logical and not consistent; and it cannot differentiate between worship and veneration.

 

[eichenb2]

You see? Words do mean something different to Muslims from what they do to Christians.

From New Advent:
To whom may we pray
Although God the Father is mentioned in this prayer as the one to whom we are to pray, it is not out of place to address our prayers to the other Divine persons. The special appeal to one does not exclude the others. More commonly the Father is addressed in the beginning of the prayers of the Church, though they close with the invocation, “Through Our Lord Jesus Christ Thy Son who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, world without end”. If the prayer be addressed to God the Son, the conclusion is: “Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end”; or, “Who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity, etc.”. Prayer may be addressed to Christ as Man, because He is a Divine Person, not however to His human nature as such, precisely because prayer must always be addressed to a person, never to something impersonal or in the abstract. An appeal to anything impersonal, as for instance to the Heart, the Wounds, the Cross of Christ, must be taken figuratively as intended for Christ Himself.

 

[eichenb2]

As for praying to/through Saints:
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

 

[Reuben_J]

I think you might have missed my point.

I am saying that only God has the power to answer prayers. So if anybody’s prayer is answered, it’s answered by God. Because God hears it, no matter who the person asks. **A person might have become ill, but yet God wills that the person’s health will improve. The person might pray and pray and pray exclusively to a wooden statue in his living room asking for better health. And when his health improves, he might say it was because he prayed to that wooden statue. **
But his health improved only because of God’s will. Rather despite the idol worship, not because of it.

Again this does not contradict Christian belief. Only God answers prayers. Praying to the saints does not mean otherwise nor does it mean the saints are answering prayer or the saints force God to answer prayers. The practice of intercession derives from the context of being a family. God is a Father. The father gives good things to his children. You can ask God directly or you can ask a member of the family to ask God. Asking a member of the family to ask God shows solidarity and also to show that the dead is not forgotten. You really need to understand this family context in order to understand Christian intercession.

The bolden part implies God is stupid or that humans do not have reasoning ability to understand simple thing like God granting prayer request. Don’t you think you oversimplify things and that practically this do not happen at all in real life?

Same thing today–people might say and even believe they are healed because they prayed to some saint or did something silly. But they were healed because it was God’s will that they were healed. So they should have just asked God. Since whether they were healed or not, if they’d asked God, He would be pleased with them. If they asked someone else, then they are denying God’s power, which He showed by healing them. And so they will be punished for that (unless they realize their mistake and repent.)

Again – never such an assumption happens. Even Christians with minimal knowledge of church teaching know that it is God who heals. BTW, it is not a guarantee that even if you ask God directly that He will grant healing! We believe that God answers prayers but whether he grants the request or not is another matter. He will grant it if it’s according to his will.

Asking someone else to intercede is not denying God’s power as it not the intercessor who heals or who have the power to grant the request. There is never any incident in the Bible where God is angry when a person interceded for someone else. Abraham interceding for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is a classic example of what intercession can do because God is a loving and a compassionate God.

 

[eichenb2]

While you may have a point there as you look at this through the prism of Islamic belief and teaching, Christianity is a different ball game altogether. It’s not a matter of whether God wants us to speak to him alone because he loves us. Remember God’s love is vertical as well as horizontal. Our love for him must be translated into our love for our fellow humans. Another important aspect of Christianity, at least from Catholic perspective is that all believers are one family of God. God is a family in the Holy Trinity; the believers are one big family whether dead or alive.

Without saying whether Christianity is right or Islam is wrong or vice versa, you really cannot apply Islamic doctrine and thought to critique Christianity because they are like apple and orange.

Therefore, yes, God wants us to speak to him which is what Christians do most of the time. God would also want members of his family to speak to each other which is what Christians do quite often. This does not contradict each other nor does it offend God to acknowledge that the deads that died in state of grace are with Him.

Again there is the difference in the understanding of worship in Christianity as opposed to Islam. Worship is adoration; putting and elevating God above all things. Intercession does not amount to that. Honestly I think Christians do have a more logical and reasonable understanding of worship as compared to Islam. So strict is your definition of worship that it always baffles me why Muslims need to kiss the Kaaba. So you see, Islam’s definition of worship is not logical and not consistent; and it cannot differentiate between worship and veneration.

Good post. I have come to the same conclusion. Trying to explain Christian doctrine in the framework of Islam or vice versa is unfair to both. It is as you said, comparing apples and oranges. It is interesting to note that Islam does allow for intercession. Some Muslims say that it is given to on Muhammad. Others say it is given to all Prophets. Still others say that there is no intercession whatsoever.

 

[eichenb2]

Kimberly Hahn wrote beautifully about her struggles with the Communion of Saints, as a former Presbyterian. She wrote that she was after her second (i think) miscarriage and imagined that the saints were gathered around her and praying for God to relieve her distress and suffering. I understood it as an athlete running on a track and all the Saints fill the stands and were cheering her on. However, they were not cheering as “armchair quarterbacks”. They had suffered the same trials.

Saint Thomas, pray for us; that we may understand, practice, and propogate the Message of Christ to a broken world.

 

[Sister_Amy]

While you may have a point there as you look at this through the prism of Islamic belief and teaching, Christianity is a different ball game altogether. It’s not a matter of whether God wants us to speak to him alone because he loves us. Remember God’s love is vertical as well as horizontal. Our love for him must be translated into our love for our fellow humans. Another important aspect of Christianity, at least from Catholic perspective is that all believers are one family of God. God is a family in the Holy Trinity; the believers are one big family whether dead or alive.

Without saying whether Christianity is right or Islam is wrong or vice versa, you really cannot apply Islamic doctrine and thought to critique Christianity because they are like apple and orange.

Therefore, yes, God wants us to speak to him which is what Christians do most of the time. God would also want members of his family to speak to each other which is what Christians do quite often. This does not contradict each other nor does it offend God to acknowledge that the deads that died in state of grace are with Him.

Again there is the difference in the understanding of worship in Christianity as opposed to Islam. Worship is adoration; putting and elevating God above all things. Intercession does not amount to that. Honestly I think Christians do have a more logical and reasonable understanding of worship as compared to Islam. So strict is your definition of worship that it always baffles me why Muslims need to kiss the Kaaba. So you see, Islam’s definition of worship is not logical and not consistent; and it cannot differentiate between worship and veneration.

Muslims don’t need to kiss the Ka’aba.

Said 'Umar ibn al-Khattab when he approached the black stone, “By Allah, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone. Had I not seen the Prophet touching you, I would not have touched you.”

Imagine having a human being who not only received revelation from God, but was also inspired as a teacher who could teach his followers exactly how God wanted them to worship Him, with no doubt, and no change later on through the centuries.

 

[eichenb2]

Muslims don’t need to kiss the Ka’aba.

Said 'Umar ibn al-Khattab when he approached the black stone, “By Allah, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone. Had I not seen the Prophet touching you, I would not have touched you.”

Imagine having a human being who not only received revelation from God, but was also inspired as a teacher who could teach his followers exactly how God wanted them to worship Him, with no doubt, and no change later on through the centuries.

That begs the question thought. Why did Muhammad kiss it?

 

[sedonaman]

… Trying to explain Christian doctrine in the framework of Islam or vice versa is unfair to both. It is as you said, comparing apples and oranges.

Megadittos, although I personally don’t think it’s possible to be unfair to Islam in view of its record. [Please note that I didn’t say Muslims.]

It is interesting to note that Islam does allow for intercession. Some Muslims say that it is given to on Muhammad. Others say it is given to all Prophets. Still others say that there is no intercession whatsoever.

One of the terms for Mohammad I have come across is “Allah’s messenger”. Sister Amy says you don’t need a go-between when praying, that God hears you anyway. Well, that can be a two-way street. Why doesn’t Allah speak directly to Muslims? Who needs Mohammad? According to this site islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 , “You become a Muslim when you accept that there is no god to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammad is His final Messenger.” If some Muslims say there is no intercession, then there would be no need for “Messenger” Mohammad, and if that is the case, Islam collapses because one must accept him as Allah’s prophet/messenger [unless, of course, “messenger” and/or “prophet” mean something entirely different, a distinct possibility]. Allah could have simply spoken to those he wanted to convert. Also, let us not forget that Allah is supposed to have used the Angel Gabriel as a messenger to carry his message to Mohammed.

None of this makes any sense.

 

[inJESUS]

So are you saying God only answers prayers directed to Mary?

no one of the other posters understood it the way you did, because i did not say what you said. The woman asked for the intercession of Mary because it was Christmas Eve and Allah did not mind her “heresy and shirk” and answered back, unless you either believe it was satan or that am lying. Allah, whom you believe is compassionate is also all-knowing and **knows **that the Muslim woman was not commiting shirk and was indeed compassionate to her. This is the God we believe in, and this is our heavenly family who left this earth, but are still our family. Allah could by no way be all-knowing and all-loving if he does not understand this simple act of love and compassion and mercy God gave us under the name of intercession but after all it is us who believe God is love and see everything through His love He showed in the person of his Word in flesh when you have different lenses of rigit legalism that reflect more of a dictator living somewhere far from humans.

 

[Christ_Is_Life]

I think you might have missed my point.

I am saying that only God has the power to answer prayers. So if anybody’s prayer is answered, it’s answered by God. Because God hears it, no matter who the person asks. A person might have become ill, but yet God wills that the person’s health will improve. The person might pray and pray and pray exclusively to a wooden statue in his living room asking for better health. And when his health improves, he might say it was because he prayed to that wooden statue.

But his health improved only because of God’s will. Rather despite the idol worship, not because of it.

Same thing today–people might say and even believe they are healed because they prayed to some saint or did something silly. But they were healed because it was God’s will that they were healed. So they should have just asked God. Since whether they were healed or not, if they’d asked God, He would be pleased with them. If they asked someone else, then they are denying God’s power, which He showed by healing them. And so they will be punished for that (unless they realize their mistake and repent.)

Rueben J has answered for me everything I would have said. We don’t worship the Saints. It’s a good point that words and meaning may define what constitutes worship and what constitutes prayer/intercession for both faiths. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

We believe God answers the prayer. From what you have written I have to ask, if someone prays to a saint for intercession which in your eyes is forbidden and healing comes, why would God heal someone who has sinned by the Islamic standards of idolatry?
It doesn’t make sense that God rewards sinners, then when they die he sends them to hell.