Quran 5:116

[Sister_Amy]

Rueben J has answered for me everything I would have said. We don’t worship the Saints. It’s a good point that words and meaning may define what constitutes worship and what constitutes prayer/intercession for both faiths. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

We believe God answers the prayer. From what you have written I have to ask, if someone prays to a saint for intercession which in your eyes is forbidden and healing comes, why would God heal someone who has sinned by the Islamic standards of idolatry?
It doesn’t make sense that God rewards sinners, then when they die he sends them to hell.

Of all the recent responses yours is the most interesting to respond to.

For the believer, this life is a prison, and the next life is a paradise. For the disbeliever, this life is a paradise, and the next life is a prison.

Muslims believe in the divine decree, that Allah has preordained circumstances for people. A person might become ill, as part of that decree. That person might also become well again, as part of that decree.

So if in the meantime, if the person was a lying, cheating, adulterous sinner, even if the person was praying to a tree, if it is God’s will that he regain his health, then he will regain his health. And nobody can stop it from happening. But if it is God’s will that the person remains ill until he dies, then nobody can stop that from happening.

Do you really believe that just because a person is sinning, he is going to have a bad life in this world? In fact, he is just being tested. Some are tested with poverty, and some with wealth. Some are tested with sickness, and others with health.

 

[eichenb2]

Megadittos, although I personally don’t think it’s possible to be unfair to Islam in view of its record. [Please note that I didn’t say Muslims.]

One of the terms for Mohammad I have come across is “Allah’s messenger”. Sister Amy says you don’t need a go-between when praying, that God hears you anyway. Well, that can be a two-way street. Why doesn’t Allah speak directly to Muslims? Who needs Mohammad? According to this site islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 , “You become a Muslim when you accept that there is no god to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammad is His final Messenger.” If some Muslims say there is no intercession, then there would be no need for “Messenger” Mohammad, and if that is the case, Islam collapses because one must accept him as Allah’s prophet/messenger [unless, of course, “messenger” and/or “prophet” mean something entirely different, a distinct possibility]. Allah could have simply spoken to those he wanted to convert. Also, let us not forget that Allah is supposed to have used the Angel Gabriel as a messenger to carry his message to Mohammed.

None of this makes any sense.

Intercession, in the Islamic context, means that you go to someone else INSTEAD OF God. The Christian concept of God is a familial, relational one. So, Intercession means something different to a Muslim. They hold that God spoke to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel in a piece meal fashion over 23 years. A Muslim not say this revelatory process was intercession. I was referring to an intercession that some Muslims believe happen on the Last Day (Yaum Al-Qiyaamah). Like I said, some Muslim hold that every Prophet will be able to intercede for thier respective communities. Since Islam is, largely, a religion of orthopraxy, there is not alot of ink spilled on these issues though. Hence, it is apples and oranges, because, Muslims tend to ignore the Christian theological framework when comparing theological concepts. Unfortunately, some Christians do the same thing, in reverse, to Christians. I think the world would be better off if we learn to respect our differences and underline our common moral values. In this vein, I would like to apologize to any Muslims on this thread who I offended. Forgive me, please. Henceforth, I shall proceed in a much more academic tone. We can, and should, discuss our differences. But, it must be done with love and respect. Oh…I am still praying for the Muslims!

 

[Christ_Is_Life]

Of all the recent responses yours is the most interesting to respond to.

For the believer, this life is a prison, and the next life is a paradise. For the disbeliever, this life is a paradise, and the next life is a prison.

Muslims believe in the divine decree, that Allah has preordained circumstances for people. A person might become ill, as part of that decree. That person might also become well again, as part of that decree.

So if in the meantime, if the person was a lying, cheating, adulterous sinner, even if the person was praying to a tree, if it is God’s will that he regain his health, then he will regain his health. And nobody can stop it from happening. But if it is God’s will that the person remains ill until he dies, then nobody can stop that from happening.

Do you really believe that just because a person is sinning, he is going to have a bad life in this world? In fact, he is just being tested. Some are tested with poverty, and some with wealth. Some are tested with sickness, and others with health.

Your response is interesting. To some extent I agree with you, we as Christians are taught that our suffering can be offered up as prayer. Our late Pope John Paul II is a great example of that, and he lived that message towards the end of his life. I’ve often have heard the term of ‘pinning our suffererings to the cross’.

With regards to the last paragraph on sinning, my point was why God would help a sinner in this life by answering his prayers from your perspective. I think you answered it.

Jesus gives many parables regarding prayer, from the faith of the mustard seed to the example of praying without ceasing. Jesus wouldn’t have taught about prayer in that manner if there was no chance of it being answered. Sometimes the miracle comes from healing other times it’s the strength to make a positive meaning out of something. The Islamic model of God from your examples makes it pointless to pray asking for anything for ourselves or others.

To what degree does the Islamic model of God allow human beings to structure their own fate by their own decisions etc?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Your response is interesting. To some extent I agree with you, we as Christians are taught that our suffering can be offered up as prayer. Our late Pope John Paul II is a great example of that, and he lived that message towards the end of his life. I’ve often have heard the term of ‘pinning our suffererings to the cross’.

With regards to the last paragraph on sinning, my point was why God would help a sinner in this life by answering his prayers from your perspective. I think you answered it.

Jesus gives many parables regarding prayer, from the faith of the mustard seed to the example of praying without ceasing. Jesus wouldn’t have taught about prayer in that manner if there was no chance of it being answered. Sometimes the miracle comes from healing other times it’s the strength to make a positive meaning out of something. The Islamic model of God from your examples makes it pointless to pray asking for anything for ourselves or others.

To what degree does the Islamic model of God allow human beings to structure their own fate by their own decisions etc?

There are some specific things which are decreed for a person before his birth (in fact, while he is still in the womb, I think.) The things that are decreed for a person are who his parents are, and how much sustenance (i.e., wealth) he will receive, and how long he will live.

What I didn’t mention (deliberately) is that some scholars will teach that du’a (i.e., prayer) might actually change what has been decreed in some instances. And that some actions will affect the decree (like being good to parents or giving in charity results in an increase in wealth) But then, how would you know–you don’t know what was decreed for you in the first place. So prayer is to worship God and thank Him.

The reason that it isn’t pointless to pray is because prayer is worship. So the prayer might be granted in this life, it might be granted in the next life, or at least it is purification from sins.

 

[Christ_Is_Life]

There are some specific things which are decreed for a person before his birth (in fact, while he is still in the womb, I think.) The things that are decreed for a person are who his parents are, and how much sustenance (i.e., wealth) he will receive, and how long he will live.

What I didn’t mention (deliberately) is that some scholars will teach that du’a (i.e., prayer) might actually change what has been decreed in some instances. And that some actions will affect the decree (like being good to parents or giving in charity results in an increase in wealth) But then, how would you know–you don’t know what was decreed for you in the first place. So prayer is to worship God and thank Him.

The reason that it isn’t pointless to pray is because prayer is worship. So the prayer might be granted in this life, it might be granted in the next life, or at least it is purification from sins.

Thanks for your explaination. I didn’t mention that we also pray for thanks and other forms of prayer that amount to worship to God because it wasn’t part of the point I was making. I must make it clear that we regard that as a very important.

The prayers I was refering to are called prayers of petition, these are often cited at mass as a group i.e. offering up a petition of prayer for peace in the middle east and then there is personal petition which brings us back to the teachings of Jesus.

I won’t jump to suppostions however it does look like you seem to disgard the teachings of Christ almost completely. This is funny when Muslims claim to have the highest respect for him as a prophet, some even go as far as to say they respect him more. I say this because it’s obvious that if you disgard the teachings of Christ on prayers (of petition) then it’s obviously because of your Islamic beliefs. One thing you can’t say, especially from this example is that the teachings of Jesus and Mohammed were the same or that they don’t contradict each other.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thanks for your explaination. I didn’t mention that we also pray for thanks and other forms of prayer that amount to worship to God because it wasn’t part of the point I was making. I must make it clear that we regard that as a very important.

The prayers I was refering to are called prayers of petition, these are often cited at mass as a group i.e. offering up a petition of prayer for peace in the middle east and then there is personal petition which brings us back to the teachings of Jesus.

I won’t jump to suppostions however it does look like you seem to disgard the teachings of Christ almost completely. This is funny when Muslims claim to have the highest respect for him as a prophet, some even go as far as to say they respect him more. I say this because it’s obvious that if you disgard the teachings of Christ on prayers (of petition) then it’s obviously because of your Islamic beliefs. One thing you can’t say, especially from this example is that the teachings of Jesus and Mohammed were the same or that they don’t contradict each other.

Disgard?

 

[inJESUS]

Imam Ahmad’s son Abd Allah said: "I asked my father about the man who touches and kisses the pommel of the Prophet's minbar to obtain blessing, or touches the grave of the Prophet. He responded by saying: "There is nothing wrong with it."" Abd Allah also asked Imam Ahmad about the man who touches the Prophet’s minbar and kisses it for blessing, and who does the same with the grave, or something to that effect, intending thereby to draw closer to Allah. He replied: “There is nothing wrong with it.” This was narrated by Abdullah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his book entitled al-Ilal fi ma`rifat al-rijal (2:492).

What Ibn Hanbal narrated is wrong?

 

[Christ_Is_Life]

Disgard?

Mathew 7:7-11. Please read it, then compare this teaching with your Islamic belief that prayers of petition won’t be answered because God pre-destines our life based on the explaination you gave me earlier.

I respect your views even though I don’t agree with them however all I’m saying is that you can’t say you follow the teachings of Christ when you hold beliefs that contradict the teachings of Christ. How do you reconcile two conflicting beliefs?

 

[inJESUS]

Qastallani mentions the following from one of the greatest Tabi`in:

Abu Ishaq (al-Zuhri) said: al-Qasim ibn Muhammad (ibn Abu Bakr al-Siddiq) said: Of the proven blessing of the likeness of the Prophet’s sandal is that whoever has it in his possession for tabarruk, it will safeguard him from the sedition of rebels and the mastery of enemies, and will be a barrier against every recreant devil and the evil eye of the envious. If the pregnant woman holds it in her right hand at the time of labor, her delivery will be easier by Allah’s change and His might.

Mary praying for us by God’s leave is “associating partners with God”, but having Muhammad’s sandals to ward off evil by Allah’s leave is ok.

 

[eichenb2]

Imam Ahmad’s son Abd Allah said: "I asked my father about the man who touches and kisses the pommel of the Prophet's minbar to obtain blessing, or touches the grave of the Prophet. He responded by saying: "There is nothing wrong with it."" Abd Allah also asked Imam Ahmad about the man who touches the Prophet’s minbar and kisses it for blessing, and who does the same with the grave, or something to that effect, intending thereby to draw closer to Allah. He replied: “There is nothing wrong with it.” This was narrated by Abdullah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his book entitled al-Ilal fi ma`rifat al-rijal (2:492).

What Ibn Hanbal narrated is wrong?

This would not be considered Intercession in Islam. It would be Tabarruk (seeking blessings). This would be very controversial on the Hanbali school. Having known several Hanbali scholars, I can tell you that they would skeptical of these reports. The question would be what is Isnaad (chain of narration) and its strength. If the Isnaad was strong and the Matn (content) can be reconciled with the Qur’an it would accepted. It would not be considered intercession, though.

 

[eichenb2]

Qastallani mentions the following from one of the greatest Tabi`in:

Abu Ishaq (al-Zuhri) said: al-Qasim ibn Muhammad (ibn Abu Bakr al-Siddiq) said: Of the proven blessing of the likeness of the Prophet’s sandal is that whoever has it in his possession for tabarruk, it will safeguard him from the sedition of rebels and the mastery of enemies, and will be a barrier against every recreant devil and the evil eye of the envious. If the pregnant woman holds it in her right hand at the time of labor, her delivery will be easier by Allah’s change and His might.

Mary praying for us by God’s leave is “associating partners with God”, but having Muhammad’s sandals to ward off evil by Allah’s leave is ok.

A Muslim would say (if they accept the hadeeth as reliable) that the person was receiving blessings for honoring Muhammad and his sandals. They would not conclude that he was interceding for him. Remember…Apples and Oranges

 

[sedonaman]

…The reason that it isn’t pointless to pray is because prayer is worship.

How about a Muslim prayer asking for something evil to happen? Is that considered worshiping Allah?

So the prayer might be granted in this life, it might be granted in the next life, or at least it is purification from sins.

If a person’s life is predestined , how can there be personal sin? Wouldn’t a “sin” be Allah’s fault because he predestined the person commit it?

 

[inJESUS]

No i did not intend to say it is intercession in how we understand it. The Shia and Sunni both have hadith from Muhammad and they contradict themselves when it comes to intercession and dead people who can/cannot hear and visiting the graves of prophets which is enough to show the Islamic inconsistency regarding these matters.

All in all, if Muslims insist on equalling this verse with intercession, they are only proving Allah is not all-knowing, as simple as this and if we are to apply the Biblical criteria to what Muhammad taught, then he is a mushrik par excellence for making God swear by him and for putting his name alongside God’s in the “monotheistic” creed.

when it comes to intercession, an all-knowing should have simply said " Mary cannot intercede for you as the dead cannot intercede for the living" instead of equalling Mary to Jesus as gods beside God; he would have saved himself the strawman arguments regarding Christianity and the conflicting belief of sunni and Shia. Chaos.

 

[sedonaman]

…when it comes to intercession, an all-knowing should have simply said " Mary cannot intercede for you as the dead cannot intercede for the living" …

Let me throw a hand grenade into this discussion. Some believe that Mary didn’t die but only “fell asleep” before going to Heaven
.
churchyear.net/assumption.html
newsfinder.org/site/more/the_dormition_of_theotokos/

 

[inJESUS]

Let me throw a hand grenade into this discussion. Some believe that Mary didn’t die but only “fell asleep” before going to Heaven
.
churchyear.net/assumption.html
newsfinder.org/site/more/the_dormition_of_theotokos/

am not sure if Islam has an answer to this, i don’t think so, but what i wrote was for discussion’s sake in an attempt to draw the difference between refuting intercession and refuting the deity of Mary and equalling her to Jesus.

 

[Reuben_J]

One of the terms for Mohammad I have come across is “Allah’s messenger”. Sister Amy says you don’t need a go-between when praying, that God hears you anyway. Well, that can be a two-way street. Why doesn’t Allah speak directly to Muslims? Who needs Mohammad? According to this site islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 , “You become a Muslim when you accept that there is no god to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammad is His final Messenger.” If some Muslims say there is no intercession, then there would be no need for “Messenger” Mohammad, and if that is the case, Islam collapses because one must accept him as Allah’s prophet/messenger [unless, of course, “messenger” and/or “prophet” mean something entirely different, a distinct possibility]. Allah could have simply spoken to those he wanted to convert. Also, let us not forget that Allah is supposed to have used the Angel Gabriel as a messenger to carry his message to Mohammed.

None of this makes any sense.

That’s a good observation. There have never been strict practice and tradition that God must speak to man directly. Even In islam in the most important event, the Quran was delivered to Mohammad by an angel instaed of God directly speaking to him. There is no reason therefore to hold to the opinion that man must always approach God directly too.

 

[Steven_John]

[you can’t say you follow the teachings of Christ**

when you are praying in a way that is different to his teaching.

He taught to pray to God.

I am not saying that praying differently is wrong, just that it is not the way of his teaching.

 

[Jay53]

Suppose that the worst possible sin is to worship something instead of God or along with God. Imagine if you are someone who instructed the people to worship him? For example, Pharaohs would declare themselves to be divine, right? Told the people to worship them. Think of the implications.

When people set something or someone up between them to worship, Allah will expose the falsehood on the Day of Judgment. People will see that the things they worshiped were powerless (i.e., idols) or that they never asked to be worshiped (like Jesus.)

Sorry, Sister Amy, but I must have had an even longer day than I thought because your post here doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t understand how it addresses my last post. I understand the second part, but that doesn’t address why Allah is asking about Jesus telling people to worship Mary. I still don’t know of anyone who does. I’m sure you’ve noticed by the vehement responses on this and other threads that Catholics emphatically do not worship Mary. If Catholics who are lowly sinners can understand this, why wouldn’t Allah who is supposed to be all-knowing etc. I’m just not getting this.

As far as worshipping Jesus, we most decidedly do and Jesus most decidedly DID tell us that He is the Son of God, so I don’t see any argument there.

Sorry I didn’t get the rest of this. Maybe I’m just not supposed to understand this verse. Since it isn’t vital to my salvation I should just let it go. Thanks for trying to explain. I truly do appreciate your efforts.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Mathew 7:7-11. Please read it, then compare this teaching with your Islamic belief that prayers of petition won’t be answered because God pre-destines our life based on the explaination you gave me earlier.

I respect your views even though I don’t agree with them however all I’m saying is that you can’t say you follow the teachings of Christ when you hold beliefs that contradict the teachings of Christ. How do you reconcile two conflicting beliefs?

Please tell me the meaning of the word “disgard.”

Then you can look up Matthew 6:9 when Jesus tells people how to pray. Or more specifically, to whom. When he says ask, he clearly means ask of God, not asking dead people. I am saying my beliefs are the beliefs of Christ, my beliefs are according to his teachings. If you find them not to be so, my only argument is that you have simply misunderstood his teachings.

That’s a rock-solid cop-out if I ever heard one.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sorry, Sister Amy, but I must have had an even longer day than I thought because your post here doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t understand how it addresses my last post. I understand the second part, but that doesn’t address why Allah is asking about Jesus telling people to worship Mary. I still don’t know of anyone who does. I’m sure you’ve noticed by the vehement responses on this and other threads that Catholics emphatically do not worship Mary. If Catholics who are lowly sinners can understand this, why wouldn’t Allah who is supposed to be all-knowing etc. I’m just not getting this.

As far as worshipping Jesus, we most decidedly do and Jesus most decidedly DID tell us that He is the Son of God, so I don’t see any argument there.

Sorry I didn’t get the rest of this. Maybe I’m just not supposed to understand this verse. Since it isn’t vital to my salvation I should just let it go. Thanks for trying to explain. I truly do appreciate your efforts.

Do you know anyone who worships Jesus?