Quran 5:116

[Sister_Amy]

Well, I misread what others had posted. I thought it SAID Trinity. I stand corrected.

Now, do Muslims think that the Trinity is The Father, Jesus and Mary? Is this the form of assigning partners that will lead us to hell for ever? If I go to a Muslim site, will it ssay the correct Christian Teaching on the Trinity?

I’m glad it was just a misunderstanding.

Regarding this question, it’s always my view that I wouldn’t go to Muslims to learn about Christianity, nor Christians to learn about Islam. It’s possible that there are Muslims out there who incorrectly interpret this ayah and with their sparse knowledge of Christianity in the first place, they simply make the jump to assuming that the Trinity is comprised of Father, Jesus, and Mary.

There are specifically two verses in the Qur’an which refer to the Trinity–4:171 and 5:73.

What is really interesting to me is not whether the Trinity is explicitly defined–but how its actual roots are refuted. The concept of “Holy Spirit” is the really vague one, if you ask me, and it’s difficult for anyone to understand. Even in Islam, the Holy Spirit is not human, but the Angel Gabirel. But the formation of the Trinity as a doctrine only came after the elevation of Jesus to Lordship and divinity, didn’t it?

So that is precisely what the Qur’an refutes.

 

[hamba2han]

Does the Bible say that Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs etc will get to enter Paradise??

If not, then going by your argument, is it not “illogical” to punish non-Christians on the Last Day for what they believed during their time in this world?

 

[swariffin]

You need to understand the context of this verse.

The reason why Allah is asking Jesus (pbuh) this question on the Day of Judgment is because the people who have committed this great sin of associating partners with Allah by assigning divinity to Jesus (pbuh) and his mother need to hear the answer from Jesus (pbuh) himself on that Day and thereby enable them to fully understand the reason why they deserve they punishment that they will receive.

It is definitely NOT because Allah does not know the answer.

Did Muhammad assigning himself to Allah? Why put his name permanently together with Allah?

 

[swariffin]

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen. (Muhsin Khan)

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (Saheeh International)

Please tell us where is the Bible that Jesus ever said that?

 

[swariffin]

You need to understand the context of this verse.

The reason why Allah is asking Jesus (pbuh) this question on the Day of Judgment is because the people who have committed this great sin of associating partners with Allah by assigning divinity to Jesus (pbuh) and his mother need to hear the answer from Jesus (pbuh) himself on that Day and thereby enable them to fully understand the reason why they deserve they punishment that they will receive.

It is definitely NOT because Allah does not know the answer.

Jesus’ deity came from the fact that Jesus is Kalimathullah or word of God. Mohammad correctly mentioned that but failed to understand what he had written in Quran.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please tell us where is the Bible that Jesus ever said that?

BTW this is very good observation. If the Bible contains the true teaching for Christians then logically at least the Quran should refer to it. The fact it did not weigh heavily to the argument that it was ignorant of this teaching OR it really thought what it said was right that Christians worshipped Mary (which actually it was wrong).

 

[ralphinal]

I’m glad it was just a misunderstanding.

Regarding this question, it’s always my view that I wouldn’t go to Muslims to learn about Christianity, nor Christians to learn about Islam. It’s possible that there are Muslims out there who incorrectly interpret this ayah and with their sparse knowledge of Christianity in the first place, they simply make the jump to assuming that the Trinity is comprised of Father, Jesus, and Mary.

There are specifically two verses in the Qur’an which refer to the Trinity–4:171 and 5:73.

What is really interesting to me is not whether the Trinity is explicitly defined–but how its actual roots are refuted. The concept of “Holy Spirit” is the really vague one, if you ask me, and it’s difficult for anyone to understand. Even in Islam, the Holy Spirit is not human, but the Angel Gabirel. But the formation of the Trinity as a doctrine only came after the elevation of Jesus to Lordship and divinity, didn’t it?

So that is precisely what the Qur’an refutes.

Out of curiosity, can you quote the other sura for us?

The Trinity was not defined until after Jesus had ascended into heaven, over a period of time. Technically, yes, it was after men started calling Jesus God. However, that is because the Bible was after men started calling Jesus God. JEsus was seen as God by the first century Christians. The Trinity was defined as a result of various heresies entering the church

 

[Alexius]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

In Islam , if you/we pray to anyone except God is called shirk/blashphemy. It’s the major sin & if we die without repentance , only punishment is eternal fire.

Christians give much importances on Mother Mary (p) ; they make statue of her for worship purpose , they pray to her.…it’s called worship/ take deity besides God.

If Muslims make statue of Muhammed (p) & pray to him , that will be also considered as the most major sin.

it’s part of our faith to respect Jesus & Mary (peace be upon them). We are not allowed to make statues of them & worship them besides God.

Perhaps you do not practice it, but for many Muslims, praying or asking intercession from the saints (not the Christian ones of course) is as important as it is to Orthodox and Catholics. For them, it is a part of tawassul–growing closer to GOD. Of course, as for many Islamic teachings, this one is accepted as noble by some schools and committees and rejected as shirk by others.

---

Collyridians and Mariamites, who elevated the Blessed Virgin to goddess status (and a part of the Trinity) may have presented their doctrines to Muhammad as orthodox Christian theology. Either way, there were many sects in Arabia during Muhammad’s lifetime that preached Mary as divine.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Abraham80]

The difference between worship and devotion can be very tight when it comes to the virgin Mary (pbuh).

What many christian think it’s just a devotion for a virgin Mary (pbuh) have become through the centuries a kind of worship.

In some country, like Mexico, statues of the virgin where offered foods which remind us the dark ages of idols worshiping.

Around the world,numerous miracles and apparitions accounted to the virgin Mary, that have maked people switch from devotion to worship.

We can see in the christian culture, too many statues, icon crosses, People become praying jesus and mary to save them and forget about the oneess of god.

"In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. He listen to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” at that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

“When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.”
Acts 14:8-12

“They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God (Allah): there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).”
Quran 9:31

 

[trdchubi]

"In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. He listen to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” at that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

“When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.”
Acts 14:8-12

You forgot to add this one:

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. Acts 14:14-15

“They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God (Allah): there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).”
Quran 9:31

And take note they are not even talking with Christians here but Pagan Greek Citizens.

 

[hamba2han]

Did Muhammad assigning himself to Allah? Why put his name permanently together with Allah?

Muslims do NOT assign any form of divinity to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[inJESUS]

The difference between worship and devotion can be very tight when it comes to the virgin Mary (pbuh).

and the same applies to Muhammad.
Allah swearing by Muhammad is pure shirk according to the OT and NT. Saying “Allah and Muhammad decree” is shirk.

The following is shirk:
Narrated Abu Said bin Al-Mu’alla:
While I was praying in the Mosque, Allah’s Apostle called me but I did not respond to him. Later I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I was praying.” He said, “Didn’t Allah say—‘Give your response to Allah (by obeying Him) and to His Apostle when he calls you?’” (8.24) … (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 1)

Muhammad could have waiting 5mn and spare us this arrogance.

It is reported on the authority of Anas that the Messenger of Allah said: No bondsman believes, and, in the hadith narrated by Abdul Warith, no person believes, till I am dearer to him than the members of his household, his wealth and the whole of mankind. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0070)

Ibn 'Ata quoted a hadith qudsi saying, “I completed belief with your being mentioned with Me.” And another one which says, "I have made your mention part of My mention so whoever mentions Me, mentions you."

Qadi Iyad, Kitab Ash-shifa bi ta’rif huquq al-Mustafa (Healing by the recognition of the Rights of the Chosen One):

“… He coupled his name with His own name, and his pleasure with His pleasure. He made him ONE OF THE TWO PILLARS of tawhid.”

this isn’t devotion anymore but blasphemy and you are telling us that we forget the onness of God when you cannot utter Allah without Muhammad? at least we do not join Mary’s name to God’s in order to preach the oness of God.

What many christian think it’s just a devotion for a virgin Mary (pbuh) have become through the centuries a kind of worship.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Please tell us where is the Bible that Jesus ever said that?

Huh?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Perhaps you do not practice it, but for many Muslims, praying or asking intercession from the saints (not the Christian ones of course) is as important as it is to Orthodox and Catholics. For them, it is a part of tawassul–growing closer to GOD. Of course, as for many Islamic teachings, this one is accepted as noble by some schools and committees and rejected as shirk by others.

---

Collyridians and Mariamites, who elevated the Blessed Virgin to goddess status (and a part of the Trinity) may have presented their doctrines to Muhammad as orthodox Christian theology. Either way, there were many sects in Arabia during Muhammad’s lifetime that preached Mary as divine.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

There is a strong opinion that such saint-worship violates the basic premises of Islam. Shaykh Yasir Qadhi gave a lecture about that recently on the Deen Show if you wanna check it out on youtube. Muslims are just as fierce (if not more so) against grave/saint worship among “Muslims” than they are against it among non-Muslims, because the Muslims ought to know better.

 

[trdchubi]

From the Original Post

Why would this be in the Quran if the Quran is the infallible word of God? God, since he is omniscient, would have known that the Trinity did not include Mary and that Christians did not and had never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. Sometimes I am just so confused?!?

This is what you get from a trying hard, copy cat prophet. Misleading Revelations. Chaotic Informations and the purpose is to confuse people!

Compare that with the Revelations of the Prophets of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The prophesies have consistency and correlates with previous revelations and its very nature is to enlighten people.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Out of curiosity, can you quote the other sura for us?

The Trinity was not defined until after Jesus had ascended into heaven, over a period of time. Technically, yes, it was after men started calling Jesus God. However, that is because the Bible was after men started calling Jesus God. JEsus was seen as God by the first century Christians. The Trinity was defined as a result of various heresies entering the church

Hmm… the word “surah” is equivalent to chapter. The word “ayah” is roughly equivalent to verse. The two verses I mentioned are as follows:

4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Note that about the Trinity it just says “Don’t say three” implying that such a statement is beyond the bounds of the religion–i.e., an innovation after the time of Jesus. It confirms that Jesus is Christ, son of Mary, that He was a Messenger of God, and the word God bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by God–so Jesus was created. And then it refutes the idea that God would have a son by declaring His glory, His ownership of everything, His Complete Sufficience, which explains why there is no need to believe that Jesus is the Son of God in the first place, and shows how such a statement detracts from His Glory.

The other verse is much harsher, and I think it should be read in context, if you don’t mind…

Surely, they have disbelieved who say: “Allah is the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary).” But the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus)] said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong*doers) there are no helpers.

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).” But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah *. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth). (5:72-75)

So first, Allah calls it disbelief to declare that Jesus is divine… but in fact, what’s so beautiful about the Qur’an is that it doesn’t even put it in that order. The order is reversed, which always strikes me as extremely powerful. And the next ayah refutes the trinity proper, using the Arabic “wahidun” to describe Allah–the word means “one,” as does another word, “ahad,” but since Allah is using specifically “wahid” in refutation of the Trinity, a friend of mine once made a really powerful point about how it means the Trinity idea of 3-in-1 actually does violate the monotheism. I wish I could remember the details for you. It’s actually very intricate and deep. Then I love the next verse, especially, the one about asking for forgiveness. This is its own verse–isn’t it interesting then that Christians will say Christ died in order for the forgiveness of their sins? It’s like Allah is saying here no, you are sinning, and Allah is the One Who Forgives–Oft-Forgiving! And the Most Merciful. Ar-Raheem, actually, Especially Merciful, which some scholars believe is referring to Mercy on the Day of Judgment.

And then the last point is about Jesus and actually Mary again, reiterating the fact that neither was divine, they both ate food, and how can a God need food? Just only to underscore the point, there.*

 

[planten]

I appreciate your effort and thank you for it, but this appears to be a circular and fruitless discussion. Perhaps someone else can add to the discussion.

** Dear Jay, the Quran is right. It is accusing the christians of praying to Jesus and Mary. Please see the verse 5:116 again which you have posted:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother **idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

Muslim Woman has rightly explained (in brief) to you. But I may also try it. I feel that you have only objection to the prayers to Mary. You do not believe that christians pray to Mary. Am I right?

Other wise, I hope you are agreed to your praying to Jesus. Is that right? You question seems to revolve around the worship of Mary. Is that right?

So at least half the problem is solved. You pray only to Jesus and not to Mary. That is what you feel. and you think that Quran is wrong in attributing any prayers to Mary. Am I right in understanding you? Please tell so that we can proceed with discussion further. thanks.

 

[pismopal]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

In Islam , if you/we pray to anyone except God is called shirk/blashphemy. It’s the major sin & if we die without repentance , only punishment is eternal fire.

Christians give much importances on Mother Mary (p) ; they make statue of her for worship purpose , they pray to her.…it’s called worship/ take deity besides God.

If Muslims make statue of Muhammed (p) & pray to him , that will be also considered as the most major sin.

it’s part of our faith to respect Jesus & Mary (peace be upon them). We are not allowed to make statues of them & worship them besides God.

The issue of “praying to Mary” has been asked-broached-discussed-and explained many times on many different threads. In court an attorney would say “asked and answered”. If you want authoritative answer to this issue I encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which deals with this misconception effectively. The meaning of the word “pray” is to ask…not worship as you erroneously stated. We as Christians “ask” our fellow Christians to pray for us and we ask Mary and other Saints to do the same. If you don’t agree with that then I invite you to not ask…fair enough? Your religion and Christianity are quite different in so many ways it would be difficult to cover it. Christians worship a loving God, a forgiving God. We are not given brownie points for hating or killing and all men and women are humans…not “apes and pigs”.
You accuse many posters here of misrepresenting your “religion” and yet persist in misrepresenting ours…in spite of the fact that you have had it explained to you before…what gives?
This is going nowhere but there it is.

 

[pismopal]

Muslim woman

You muslims don’t have statues you say…I say OK. Thats very cool and also irrelevent because we are not muslims and I certainly am not interested in islam…that is any more than I already know. Our statues are like pictures in our wallet…of our family. A way to bring to mind events of the past…we pray in front of them…not to the statues themselves. If you don’t understand, I am sympathetic because the things that puzzle me about your religion would fill a book larger than…well , the koran.

 

[pismopal]

PS. The statues of our Holy Family are just statues…nothing more…blessed or not…sacramentals. Now how about that “Black Rock” you guys wander around for hours…whats up with that?