Quran 5:116

[dzheremi]

Muslims believe the Qur’an is verbatim the word of God. Words are not selected haphazardly, nor their order. Everything is very precise, and what words are used, which words are not used, and in what order they are placed must all be taken into account.

True enough, and I have no problem with taking it seriously. That’s the point of this thread. Since words are important (especially those that are purported to come from Jesus), I too am trying to understand this passage. Allah asks Jesus if He had instructed people to take as Gods both He and His Mother. Why? Doesn’t Allah know what His servant Jesus told people to do and not to do? Doesn’t Jesus, after all, know what He’s doing? Even if we don’t say this verse refers to the Trinity (that’s fine by me), there are still lots of problems with it. That’s why I said that even if the Qur’an gets the Trinity right (which I don’t know if it does or not), there’s still a lot to wonder about in it.

 

[swariffin]

If their interpretation of worship is so strict, I would be more concerned why the needs to kiss the black Kaaba stone.

One would only has to look at CNN and see the vast multitude of Muslims go berserk in kissing the black stone. Maybe Muslims should consider this first before throwing stones at Catholics venerating Mary or placing of statues in churches.

Let alone to face to the direction of a stone building, when praying, but think that Allah is not in there.

 

[swariffin]

Muslims believe the Qur’an is verbatim the word of God. Words are not selected haphazardly, nor their order. Everything is very precise, and what words are used, which words are not used, and in what order they are placed must all be taken into account.

But has been widely misinterpreted from a humble peaceful muslim to the hardliner who shouted “Allahuakbar” and detonate the bomb.

 

[hamba2han]

… Why? Doesn’t Allah know what His servant Jesus told people to do and not to do?..

We need to think of the Day of Judgment as the ULTIMATE trial.

And in a proper trial, everybody who is connected with the crime will be called to testify in court.

The ‘crime’ in this case is that of associating partners with Allah by assigning divinity to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and so, it really should come as no surprise that Jesus (pbuh) will naturally be called to testify on the Day of Resurrection.

There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Resurrection he [Jesus] will be a witness against them. … Al-Qur’an, Sura An-Nisa’, 4:159

It is certainly NOT that the Judge in this trial does not know what Jesus (pbuh) did but rather the purpose of him testifying against those who are accused of assigning divinity to him is to enable every one of them to know and fully understand the reason why they deserve the punishment for the crime that they have commited despite being advised and cautioned against continuing with their unforgivable sin of associating partners with their Creator during their time in this world.

 

[dolphinlove]

We need to think of the Day of Judgment as the ULTIMATE trial.

And in a proper trial, everybody who is connected with the crime will be called to testify in court.

The ‘crime’ in this case is that of associating partners with Allah by assigning divinity to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and so, it really should come as no surprise that Jesus (pbuh) will naturally be called to testify on the Day of Resurrection.

There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Resurrection he [Jesus] will be a witness against them. … Al-Qur’an, Sura An-Nisa’, 4:159

It is certainly NOT that the Judge in this trial does not know what Jesus (pbuh) did but rather the purpose of him testifying against those who are accused of assigning divinity to him is to enable every one of them to know and fully understand the reason why they deserve the punishment for the crime that they have commited despite being advised and cautioned against continuing with their unforgivable sin of associating partners with their Creator during their time in this world.

Well Christians certainly havent assigned partners to God, have we now? We believe in the one God, and one God only.
Oh thats right, the quran God says we have given him partners, so it must be true then? I dont think so… this is another major flaw found in the quran and muhammads understanding of the trinity. I think we have repeated enough times on this forum that God does not have partners, but to maintain your flawed religion, you would rather believe the made up book by your prophet rather than listening to the truth that Christianity is…

 

[planten]

Let alone to face to the direction of a stone building, when praying, but think that Allah is not in there.

**Swariffin, you have no concept of prayer. You pray to some mortal beings (Jesus and Mary) who have passed away. Then you give it the name of intercession. You ask them to pray for you. They cannot now pray for themselves. How they can pray for you? or for any one else?

Facing a Qiblah, a center of prayers is very important. You do not have any Qiblah. You do not have any Kalimah. So you cannot understand the benefits of these things.

It is all a miracle of prophet Muhammad . He was guided by Allah and he practiced what was told to him. He was ordered to set up a system of prayers. He did it. He was guided to face to a house of worship. He did it. Did he know that his teachings will spread far and wide in the world and that people will need a direction for prayers.

Just imagine a condition if there was no center of prayers. Every one would face in any direction, perhaps in a same room, mother, father and children will be facing to different directions in the same room. How silly it would be !

Then the prayer was to be collective, in congregation, not only individual. Yet it was to be individual, not only congregational (Collective). That set up a balance between individual rights and the rights of the society.

Then some verses of the Quran were to be recited in every prayer many times daily. For that the Quran had to be memorized. That was excellent for the safety (preservation) of the Quran. swariffin, you have none of these things. So what can we say about you blaming Islam about the Qiblah?**

 

[inJESUS]

if you have more questions please don’t hesitate to ask .

 

[hamba2han]

Well Christians certainly havent assigned partners to God, have we now? We believe in the one God, and one God only.
Oh thats right, the quran God says we have given him partners, so it must be true then? I dont think so… this is another major flaw found in the quran and muhammads understanding of the trinity. I think we have repeated enough times on this forum that God does not have partners, but to maintain your flawed religion, you would rather believe the made up book by your prophet rather than listening to the truth that Christianity is…

The Qur’an states that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself warned the Children of Israel not to ascribe partners with Allah:

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. … Al-Qur’an, 005.072

Those who assign divinity to Jesus (pbuh) have indeed ascribed partners with their Creator.

Do Christians assign divinity to Jesus (pbuh)? … ‘Yes’ or ‘No’?

 

[hamba2han]

The children of Adam (pbuh) are only allowed two choices to go to i.e. either Paradise or Hell.

There is no “somewhere in-between” place that they can choose to stay at on a permanent basis.

 

[inJESUS]

**They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” **

 

[meedo]

so you believe this verse is directed against intercession?

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;4618877:

This verse is addressing worshipping an idol or a false God if one would direct actions to this item or diety that otherwise would be directed to God or leads to the elevation of the satus of this diety or item to a point of divinity or simply , beyound mere creation of God ,

If the type fo intercession falls under this category then this verse includes these actions

i think you are ascribing to this text what is not there, not even in the tafasir i read. This aya is putting Jesus and Mary on the same level to Christians.

After all, if it were about intercession, one wouldn’t read that Allah allows the intercession of whom he wills and that the dead can hear what the living are doing (hadith) and one would expect a different kind of refutation than claiming Jesus and Mary are given an equal status beside God according to Christians.

This point is mentioned in another aya :
5:75 says “The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food.” .

This aya is refuting that Mary and Jesus are divine because “they used to eat food”, which does not make any sense since we do believe Jesus and Mary ate food and we do believe in Jesus’ human nature. Had the author knew this, he’d have known his sentence makes no sense.

So we have 2 ayas ascribing to Mary what Christians never did, namely divinity, one of them affirming that “she ate food” and hence is a mere human.

 

[inJESUS]

When Ibn Taymiyyah was asked if the dead are aware of living that visit them. He replied that:

“There is no doubt that they are aware of the living that visit them.”

And Ibn Taymiyyah quoted the following Hadith in his support:

“The proof of dead awareness comes from two Sahih Books of Bukhari and Muslim in which Rasool Allah s.w. said that when people have buried a dead person and leave for home, the dead can hear the thumps of sandaled feet of those who leave.”
Majmuaat-al-Fatawa by Ibne Taymiyyah, vol. 24, page 362

So if the author meant intercession, one could expect something like " and He said to Issa: did you tell people that the dead can intercede for them"? for example, or “did you tell your followers that you and Mary can intercede for them”, and not asking Issa if he said he and Mary are gods beside God, and in another verse denying again that Mary and Jesus are divine.

Besides, in Islam Issa is not dead “yet”.

 

[dzheremi]

Ascribing partners to Allah…what nonsense! You guys are the ones who have “Allah’s messenger” punctuating so many verses that mention Allah, not us. Jesus and the God the Father are not running a law firm together or something - Jesus IS God!

If the Qur’an is to be considered a verbatim transcription of the words of Allah, as Sister Amy mentioned elsewhere in this thread, then it’s pretty clear to every Christian that the Islamic Allah does not understand even the fundamentals of Christianity. If the last day will be like a courtroom trial, then Muhammad, j’accuse! God certainly understands what the Qur’an obviously does not, so there’s a mighty big burden of proof on Muhammad to prove that such verses are the word of the everlasting God. It will not stand up “in court”, because you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool God at all, ever!

As Muslims like to say, Allah knows best! Muhammad, on the other hand…I guess the “jury” is out until the last day.

 

[swariffin]

Swariffin, you have no concept of prayer. You pray to some mortal beings (Jesus and Mary) who have passed away. Then you give it the name of intercession. You ask them to pray for you. They cannot now pray for themselves. How they can pray for you? or for any one else?

We pray to Jesus the word of God, who is God. You are wrong, the holy people in heaven can pray for you. Too bad, if you believe that way. If you forget to pray, then Muhammad cannot help you out. Unless you believe that there is no one in heaven but God and the angels. Of course, our concept of praying does not the same as yours, so you can easily say that I have no concept of praying, as if you are God who determine the concept of prayer.

Facing a Qiblah, a center of prayers is very important. You do not have any Qiblah. You do not have any Kalimah. So you cannot understand the benefits of these things.

You are correct. I can never understand the necessity to face to a Qiblah and knowing that Allah is not there. Why pray facing a place where Allah is not there? I can never understand. To me, I must face Allah wherever and whenever I am.

It is all a miracle of prophet Muhammad . He was guided by Allah and he practiced what was told to him. He was ordered to set up a system of prayers. He did it. He was guided to face to a house of worship. He did it. Did he know that his teachings will spread far and wide in the world and that people will need a direction for prayers.

No wonder no muslim can tell me why they face Kaaba when praying and knowing that Allah is not there. Even Muhammad cannot understand that. Not even realizing the possibility of some entity deceiving him.

Just imagine a condition if there was no center of prayers. Every one would face in any direction, perhaps in a same room, mother, father and children will be facing to different directions in the same room. How silly it would be !

That is the problem when you believe that Allah is NOT OMNIPRESENT. YOU ARE LIMITING THE POWER OF GOD.

Then the prayer was to be collective, in congregation, not only individual. Yet it was to be individual, not only congregational (Collective). That set up a balance between individual rights and the rights of the society.

A collective prayer in the RCC is called the mass. God certainly has the power to hear all the prayers directed to Him all at the same time from anywhere in the universe.

Then some verses of the Quran were to be recited in every prayer many times daily. For that the Quran had to be memorized. That was excellent for the safety (preservation) of the Quran. swariffin, you have none of these things. So what can we say about you blaming Islam about the Qiblah?

You are free to memorize anything, and the most important thing we would like to see is what coming out from that memory?

Islam is submission to God. How can you be submissive to God if you face away from Allah when you are praying?

 

[swariffin]

The Qur’an states that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself warned the Children of Israel not to ascribe partners with Allah:

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. … Al-Qur’an, 005.072

Those who assign divinity to Jesus (pbuh) have indeed ascribed partners with their Creator.

Do Christians assign divinity to Jesus (pbuh)? … ‘Yes’ or ‘No’?

Christian never assign divinity to Jesus. Jesus since the beginning is the Kalimathullah, the word of God. It is you who keep on accusing, but still assigning Muhammad to God instead.

 

[swariffin]

The children of Adam (pbuh) are only allowed two choices to go to i.e. either Paradise or Hell.

There is no “somewhere in-between” place that they can choose to stay at on a permanent basis.

In the RCC we have a condition for imperfect but not doomed soul to get purified before entering heaven. We don’t believe in binary options.

 

[inJESUS]

Ascribing partners to Allah…what nonsense!

indeed.

Giving any attribute/action to a creature when it is reserved only to Allah is shirk. I sometimes wonder if Allah has any consideration to “intentions” . We see that Allah asked angels to bow down to a mere human when bowing down is supposed to be reserved “only” to Allah but i doubt any Muslim will admit it as “shirk”. Angels know everything the humans do and write them down as they are “watchers” and i doubt any Muslim will say “we don’t need them since Allah is sufficient” which makes us wonder, if Allah is sufficient, why does he send angels to write down what they’re doing?
Allah swore by a mere human (when God says He swears ONLY by Himself), yet to Muslims this is no shirk.
The Islamic shahada or creed is wrong without mentioning muhammad alongside Allah.
Muslims are nothing if they love anything above Muhammad and Muslims come telling *us *that we ascribe partners to God because we believe His Word is Him and because we believe that Mary who is “favoured” among all women as per the Quran can hear us and pray for us.

 

[St_Gregory]

I think maybe the Muslims here could argue that the Qu’ran does indeed make literal factual errors regarding Christianity but that this is meant to be interpreted in a more realistic way maybe?

I dunno; I think any honest muslim must first admit the literal factual errors of the Qu’ran – if they want to give a theological/aramaic language explanation for that then fine.

A quick question for any Muslims:
I dunno if this should be here but, since Muslims insist (I think anyway; correct me if I’m wrong) the absolute neccesity of Islam for salvation then what is the reason that they know Islam is sure? I mean if God (do Muslims prefer “God” or “Allah”?) will condemn any non-Muslim then presumably there must be an clear reason to believe Islam is true or else how can God accuse us of wrong?
On a similar note: why does God/Allah condemn people who pray to saints? Surely He knows that we pray to saints for intercession (much like asking a friend to pray for you) and out of adoration of Him (many people feel it is more humble to ask a saint to pray to God for him/her since they feel unworthy to approach the All-Holy)?

 

[dolphinlove]

The Qur’an states that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself warned the Children of Israel not to ascribe partners with Allah:

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. … Al-Qur’an, 005.072

Those who assign divinity to Jesus (pbuh) have indeed ascribed partners with their Creator.

Do Christians assign divinity to Jesus (pbuh)? … ‘Yes’ or ‘No’?

The quran itself is WRONG, which i have already pointed out.
You show me where we have assigned other Gods…
As i said, there is only ONE God, you show me others in Catholicism!
Yes, Jesus is divine, but as we have explained to you MANY times, you dont understand the concept of how Jesus is the Son of God.

John 14
6 Jesus said: I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
7 If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him.
8 Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him,
9 'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”?
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord: it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works.
11 You must believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe it on the evidence of these works.
12 In all truth I tell you, whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself, and will perform even greater works, because I am going to the Father.
13 Whatever you ask in my name I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
15 If you love me you will keep my commandments.