The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
If Jesus and Mary were put on the same level by this verse, you would see Mary being asked the same question as Jesus. But she is not.
Sister Amy;4627122:
There were some people living in Mecca at the time of Muhammad who worshiped idols. There is no disputing this fact. There were even idols of Jesus and Mary. These people also believed in one true God, Allah. But still they worshiped the idols.Are you actually accusing me of worshipping Mary? If so, you are WAY off base and not as intelligent as I thought you were.
Then they were told to stop worshiping the idols and direct all their prayers to God alone, they said that the idols helped them to get closer to God. That God was just so high they needed some sort of intercessor, and so these idols interceded for them.
They don’t believe that they ever occurred and people made this up, or they just don’t believe in the messages of the apparitions?
I have too. Ultimately all prayers are answered ONLY by God. If God’s answer is “no”, Blessed Mother or a saint obviously cannot circumvent God and say “yes” if that makes sense. My point was just that my prayer was answered through the intercession of a saint so I know that they are alive in heaven and can help us.have had prayers answered too. Answered by directly asking God.
This quote from the Quran obviously disagrees with the Bible verse, then. To me it would be a “he said/she said” argument and who someone wants to believe.
Actually you haven’t. You replied:-
Let me slightly modify what I said (modified part underlined)
Most, like me, probably never heard of them. They have nothing to do with Islam (which is complete), so if something occurred, there are a number of explanations allowing the event to fit into the realm of unseen things, although for sure the messages would be totally discounted.
Right, all prayers are answered ONLY by God. And if God’s answer is no, nothing else can circumvent that answer. But if God’s answer is yes, nothing is going to stop Him from answering either, if He wills… right? Or do you think that because you didn’t pray directly to God, He didn’t hear?
Christianity in it’s true form? Why it’s true form? Muhammad didn’t need to know anything about Christianity. But the Qur’an needs to refute every brand, every form of Christianity ever practiced–whether true according to you or not. To Islam, Catholicism is as wrong as Protestantism is as wrong as any denomination of Christianity which declares divinity of Jesus. And the Qur’an does refute all the misconceptions of all kinds of Christianity which lead people away from the truth.This quote from the Quran obviously disagrees with the Bible verse, then. To me it would be a “he said/she said” argument and who someone wants to believe.
Is there any information about Muhammad’s religion before his “visitation” from the “Angel Gabriel”. **Was he aware of Christianity in its true form **(not the heretic sects as others have pointed out.) Was he Christian/atheist/agnostic… (Sorry, I don’t know what other religions were around back then.)
I’m just curious, what gave you that impression?
Can you please demonstrate for me how one prays to the Holy Spirit? I never heard of anyone doing that before.
Can you give me an example of sacrifices made only for the Holy Spirit?
May I assume that these statements are explicit in your creed or something?
Is this doctrinal?
Doctrinal?
For example?
Can you prove that the Holy Spirit gives it to you?
For instance? You don’t say, “Oh God, empower me with Your spirit” or something like that?
If the Holy Spirit is God, then it only hears by God’s power.
Mary can’t give you anything out of her own power. Full stop. Full stop.
But actually, it is their intention. What they intend to do is worship, even though worship is not what they intend.
Maybe some are acting out of ignorance. And maybe some are not. In fact, their ignorance is pretty irrelevant to the present discussion. The point is rather that their worship is being pointed out to them for what it is. Ignorance at that point is no longer an excuse.
So you’re playing around with the word “intention.” What helps you sleep at night won’t save you.
It would be appreciated if, before jumping into a discussion such as this, you could make the effort of determining what this particular Muslim is claiming, and what she is explaining.
Thanks for replying: I’ll just touch on a few bits.
Hmm; that’s a more complex problem. I see the strengths and defenses of a position like that but there is also some difficulties. For example surely genuine fear/love of God is good and holy, and certainly wouldn’t be any foundation for sin?
Hmm, okay. While I do agree with that I’m unsure how consistent it is with Islam especially since you just said “though a person may accept the wrong doctrine for honest reasons and out of genuine fear/love of God, it will not be accepted by God”.
I means the Qur’an was not from God. If it were there would not be these kinds of factual errors.What exactly does this verse mean:
[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.
What did Muhammad and/or Allah mean by this? Jesus obviously never said this. Was this Muhammad’s misinterpretation of the Trinity - that Mary was part of it? If so, why would this be in the Quran if the Quran is the infallible word of God? God, since he is omniscient, would have known that the Trinity did not include Mary and that Christians did not and had never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. Sometimes I am just so confused?!?Even if this is a jab at the Catholic reverence for Mary, we still don’t and have never put her “beside” God; and Muslims, I thought, had just as much reverence for Mary (although admittedly just as the mother of Jesus, the prophet and not as she is, the mother of Jesus, the Son of God.)
This gets soooo annoying. Muslims are experts a beating this straw man. Catholics, nor any other brand of Christian, worships The Blessed Virgen as a god. This is classic example of Muhammad or whoever wrote the Qur’an speaking from ignorance. They don’t even attempt to comprehend the Trinity and simply label Christians as polytheists. This is unjust and lacks academic and intellectual integrity.What exactly does this verse mean:
[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.
What did Muhammad and/or Allah mean by this? Jesus obviously never said this. Was this Muhammad’s misinterpretation of the Trinity - that Mary was part of it? If so, why would this be in the Quran if the Quran is the infallible word of God? God, since he is omniscient, would have known that the Trinity did not include Mary and that Christians did not and had never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. Sometimes I am just so confused?!?
Hi and welcome to the forums. If you’re here awhile, you’ll have that reaction frequently :banghead:
; the other reaction you’ll have is 
, depends on the poster and the topic.Thanks for your post, for taking the time to read, and for your interesting scientific analogy.
Sister Amy -Thanks for your post, for taking the time to read, and for your interesting scientific analogy.
I have the following thought, about the atom/molecule analogy. Three atoms, you say, one molecule. Fine. Let’s look at the H2O molecules. Two Hydrogens, one Oxygen. Only one Oxygen. Only one Molecule.
But there is only one Oxygen. The molecule, the total number of atoms, the hydrogens, is all irrelevant. It is only the Oxygen that matters.
So in Islam, it’s like saying there’s only one molecule, and there’s only one Oxygen. (Which is kind of a bad example I guess since you don’t find Oxygen atoms floating around independently, but let’s just pretend.) Putting the two Hydrogens there and saying you’ve still got one molecule kind of defeats the point, when there is only supposed to be Oxygen.
And the hydrogen, even though it’s in the same molecule as the oxygen, is still not going to actually be oxygen.
In Islam. Only one, unitary God. No Trinity.