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Sister_Amy
Guest
I never said that you believe that intercession is “twisting God’s arm.”
Nor can I determine what you mean by your usage of the word “umma.”
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Nor can I determine what you mean by your usage of the word “umma.”
I
inJESUS
Guest
the diffference between Protestants and the Shia is that the Shia can back up their claims that the dead can hear, even quoting Sunni fatwas that the Sunnis later changed. So i repeat, if intercession per se is not shirk, it would have been better if Muhammad said " Mary is dead and cannot intercede for you ", it would have been much better than saying we worship her in the same way we worship Jesus which is totally beyong intercession which per se is not shirk in Islam.
In fact, it’d have been much better if Muhammad did not make Muslims themselves disagree about it, instead of claiming we worship Mary like Jesus.
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planten
Guest
**Yes, thanks, St. gregory. You are right. In Islam too, it is necessary to be fair and have fear of God. Please see the very first verse of the Quran (Chapter 2). It says " It is that book, No doubt, there is guidance in it for GOD FEARING (people)."
Fear of God and Love of God is most essential. If some one has no fear of God ( Fear of God is called Taqwa in Quran) then he cannot benefit from any knowledge of the Quran. Same goes for the bible and Torah.
If some one has no fear of God, He/She cannot benefit (gain) anything from Torah or bible. You are right. surely genuine fear/love of God is good and holy,** and it could not be a foundation for sin… Or I would say that genuine fear of God would protect you from going into sin.
** It is necessary to be good and honest and may be saved just by that means, only upto a point when no one is informed about the right thing. When some one is informed then there is no excuse to continue any bad practice with good intentions. Every one will be judged according to the level of his/her information. No soul will bear the burden of another.
Please know that in addition to being honest and love of God, one has to be very peaceful. It is necessary to be at peace with one’s self and to be at peace with the Lord. and the people.
I generally agree with you.**
So am I happy to feel good about you. May Allah (GOd) bless you with His love.
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eichenb2
Guest
NO. A Christian would never pray fo someone to go to Hell. Christians are commanded to pray for all people. I pray that God give you the Grace to see Heaven. One word of advice, for you, myself, and others, though. Do not be arrogant! When the Lord leads, you need to remember this. I have been and probably still am very stubborn and arrogant spiritually. My way to the Church was long, difficult, and painful. It did not have to be this way.
You are here for a reason.
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inJESUS
Guest
because obviously it is not God who swears by Muhammad when He says He swears by no one else because no one is greater. This is pure blasphemy and shirk put on God’s mouth.
It is also blasphemy, shirk, and arrogance, to stop someone from praying to answer your call, WHOEVER you are, because God comes FIRST, not you.
And you accuse *us *of shirk because we ask others to pray for us when Muhammad stopped a man from praying to answer his call and who made Allah swear by him and who put his name alongside Allah in the “monotheistic” creed.
Yet, we understand you when you say you don’t worship Muhammad, and we are humans, when you are attributing ignorance and misunderstanding to God.
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inJESUS
Guest
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morning_star777
Guest
Dear sister,do not forget that muslims also praise Muhammed.Darud sharif is same as pray.Allahumma salliala muhammadin wala ale Muhammadin Kama sallaita ala… it is also praise and according to you it is also worship.Or if it is not worship then how can catholic prayer to Mary is worship?Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. …So if your praise to muhammed is not worship then what’s wrong with catholic prayers?
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katy_kt
Guest
It is hard to see something that isn’t there.
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katy_kt
Guest
Since this seems to be missed…
Is there any place in the Quran where is the Chrisitian’s worship (which is done with intent) and associating him as a ‘partner’ to God (which is done with intent) is criticized
Is there any place in the Quran where is the Chrisitian’s worship (which is done with intent) and associating him as a ‘partner’ to God (which is done with intent) is criticized
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Steven_John
Guest
This may help with unity,
Christians are instructed by Jesus (pbwh) to pray to God (his deity)
I know of no other narration of Jesus (pbwh) instructing or permitting otherwise.
Muslims are instructed by Mohamed (pbuh) to pray to God (his deity).
My experience in the Catholic parish where i pray is some members (few) do pray to Saints, Mary (bbhn) etc.
This is in ignorance as Catholic teaching is of asking these entities to pray for the petitioner.
These people i have gently challenged have the best of intentions, as humans we have adopted some sin in our nature and feel so small.
It places a reality of unworthiness to have a relationship with God.
We read nearly only good stuff of these saints etc and because of that goodness being of God are seeking an image of God to pray to.
Some people don’t adjust to being gently challenged but some do.
For those that don’t i have gently warned them reciting or sharing of Gods truth and the best path.
I dont need to beat or argue them down, what God has asked of me is done, the seed is sown.
If God wills it will grow.
If you believe following teaching of Mohamed (pbuh) is the path God has called you to than i urge you to pray to God.
If you believe following teaching of Jesus (pbwh) is the path God has called you to than i urge you to pray to God.
God sees all and knows all, no other entity does, God nows the best of intercessors to assist you in being of His will. Do not pick your own.
If you feel unworthy to have a prayer relationship with God tell Him (He already knows) and know He is MOST merciful.
We need only to genuinely seek submitting to God to have is mercy.
Christians are instructed by Jesus (pbwh) to pray to God (his deity)
I know of no other narration of Jesus (pbwh) instructing or permitting otherwise.
Muslims are instructed by Mohamed (pbuh) to pray to God (his deity).
My experience in the Catholic parish where i pray is some members (few) do pray to Saints, Mary (bbhn) etc.
This is in ignorance as Catholic teaching is of asking these entities to pray for the petitioner.
These people i have gently challenged have the best of intentions, as humans we have adopted some sin in our nature and feel so small.
It places a reality of unworthiness to have a relationship with God.
We read nearly only good stuff of these saints etc and because of that goodness being of God are seeking an image of God to pray to.
Some people don’t adjust to being gently challenged but some do.
For those that don’t i have gently warned them reciting or sharing of Gods truth and the best path.
I dont need to beat or argue them down, what God has asked of me is done, the seed is sown.
If God wills it will grow.
If you believe following teaching of Mohamed (pbuh) is the path God has called you to than i urge you to pray to God.
If you believe following teaching of Jesus (pbwh) is the path God has called you to than i urge you to pray to God.
God sees all and knows all, no other entity does, God nows the best of intercessors to assist you in being of His will. Do not pick your own.
If you feel unworthy to have a prayer relationship with God tell Him (He already knows) and know He is MOST merciful.
We need only to genuinely seek submitting to God to have is mercy.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Sister Amy:
Interesting. How do you worship Allah?
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planten
Guest
Not understood.
Not clear. Not understood.
.
**I will discuss putting the name of Muhammad along with the name of Allah in the Kalimah. You do not have any Kalima or Qiblah. We do not mind if you had the name of Jesus along with the Father God as long as Jesus ws not God.
That was your mistake that you made god out of Jesus. We did not do that act of Shirk. We say “there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger**.”. Tell me what harm is there. Muhammad is merely a servant and messenger of God. He is not any God.
But you people could have preached in the name of Jesus and the holy spirit. It was not necessary to make them gods. Infact it would have been good to preach in the name of Jesus along with the name of your God. No harm would have been there at all. It would have informed every one that the message was from God and delivered through Jesus. It would have been good.
But now as it is, you are clearly sunk deep in Shirk, that is making a god out of a mere man and messenger. I hope you understand what you are doing and you understand that Muslims have not caused any confusion by keeping the name of Muhammad with the name of Allah.
It was necessary for two reasons:
- To tell every one that islamic teachings are care of Muhammad. Any one who wants to be a Muslim must accept Muhamamd as a messenger of God.
- To tell every one (all Musims) that they should not by mistake or mischief try to make Muhammad a God as the christians have done. So we are protected from Shirk too.
** Pardon please. I could not understand the later part of above para. **.
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eichenb2
Guest
Classic Muslim Apology! This is another proof that ignorance IS NOT bliss. Catholics do not pray to saints INSTEAD of God. They pray to God THROUGH the Saints. For clarification and Biblical support, please see scripturecatholic.com/saints.html.
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eichenb2
Guest
Also,
This is straight from Wiki:
“From the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as Anglican/Episcopalian and old-line Lutheran perspective: if those living here on earth can intercede on behalf of each other, then those which have already been glorified in heaven, and are even closer “in Christ”, are made holy as “one” unified through him (the mediator between God and men- on earth and heaven) by his sacrifice, can certainly intercede for those on earth as well.(Hebrews 2:11 and Hebrews 10:10; 1 Timothy 2:1-5)”
All believers in Christ are One Body and we pray for and with each others. The Bible says that death does not separate us from Christ, and therefore each other. So…Saint Thomas Aquinas can and does intercede for Catholic students. God knows I, for example, need the help!
This is straight from Wiki:
“From the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as Anglican/Episcopalian and old-line Lutheran perspective: if those living here on earth can intercede on behalf of each other, then those which have already been glorified in heaven, and are even closer “in Christ”, are made holy as “one” unified through him (the mediator between God and men- on earth and heaven) by his sacrifice, can certainly intercede for those on earth as well.(Hebrews 2:11 and Hebrews 10:10; 1 Timothy 2:1-5)”
All believers in Christ are One Body and we pray for and with each others. The Bible says that death does not separate us from Christ, and therefore each other. So…Saint Thomas Aquinas can and does intercede for Catholic students. God knows I, for example, need the help!
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Steven_John
Guest
Hi eichenb2 peace and blessings to you and yours,
I feel a tone in your post,
I don’t follow why you have even quoted my post.
I only offered my experience so better than people argue they build up the common truth in each other. this is how we promote peace among men.
I never insulted you but now you call me ignorant and say i am making “Classic Muslim Apology” i don’t even know what that means. I have no right to say sorry to you on behalf of Muslims. I don’t even know what they have done to you.
Please don’t try to sort out your problems through me best you take it up one on one with the person directly involved focusing on their actions rather than their religion.
i did not intend to state " Catholics pray to saints INSTEAD of God"
I did offer my experience of fellow parishioners by saying
“My experience in the Catholic parish where i pray is some members (few) do pray to Saints, Mary (bbhn) etc.”
Example not exact quotation but close
“i pray to Mary and she will have a word in Gods ear for me. You know if you want Your Father to do something you have a word with Mum and she will speak to him for you. You understand now?”
“look if you lose something you pray to St Anthony and he will find it for you”
You have a right to view them as non Catholic but if you met them as i have and listened to their life experience you may understand they are trying to do the best they can given their personal experience.
At a personal level i offer i see your denouncement of their being Catholic (“Catholics do not pray to saints INSTEAD of God.”) a judgment. They say they are Catholic and they seem to me to be trying hard so i accept their declaration.
I also offered
"This is in ignorance as Catholic teaching is of asking these entities to pray for the petitioner. "
(the word teaching may have been better as practice)
an example of this is in a Catholic society at ever meeting it is prayed …
Queen conceived without sin pray for us
St Joseph pray for us
St Vincent de Paul pray for us
St Louise de Marlac pray for us
Blessed Mary MacKilop pray for us
Blessed Rosalie Rendu pray for us…
Now for me personally the narrated words of Jesus (pbwh) are very important
I see Him as the way the truth and the light
For those that follow him there is no other called teacher.
So when simple fishermen asked him how to pray and he taught to pray to God, it is to me the best and infallible path for us all and safe from error.
I offered
“I know of no other narration of Jesus (pbwh) instructing or permitting otherwise.”
I have quickly viewed the url you have given me but it is loaded with text and i am not a good reader.
Does it offer narrations of words spoken by Jesus (pbwh) while he was with us in flesh instructing us how to pray. If so could you please help me and give me the scripture reference?
Other than that you would have digressed from what you have quoted me on.
I have not said “God does not permit or accept prayers made though saints.” Nor did i say there are no bible references of intercessory prayer.
I accept it maybe for you the truth and a way but for me its introduced complexity could dim the light given through Jesus (pbwh).
an example was spoken at our Tuesday prayer group
Is St Christopher a saint?
some one wanted to take his name in confirmation but was told he is no longer recognized as a saint. If he is no longer a saint it must mean he never was.
This must mean man exulting him to being a saint was wrong and he was never a saint.
No what became of dear old Patricia’s prayers for all those years?
We should assume God has heard them but then why did we not pray to God in the first place?
We could assume they went un heard so we should have prayed to God in the first place.
We could assume they were given to the darkness in this case we defiantly should have prayed to God in the first place.
I looked at (Hebrews 2:11 and Hebrews 10:10; 1 Timothy 2:1-5)" and did not understand them as narrations of Jesus (pbwh) instructing us to do anything but pray directly to God. But as i have said i am not good at reading.
God sees all, knows all and is big enough to hear all our prayers and send appropriate intercessors for His will to be done
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eichenb2
Guest
I apologize for the confusion. I was not confronting you personally. I was confronting a similar objection that Muslim use. I should have articulated this more clearly. Please forgive me???
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Steven_John
Guest
For sure.
May God / Allah bless you and yours as yous submit unto Him
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Steven_John
Guest
With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
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Booklover
Guest
Your ignorance is showing once again if you believe we do this! You’re simply ascribing to others what Muslims do!
A picture is worth a thousand words!
Check out this site that has pictures of Muslims with placards asking “Allah” to curse the Pope and for the Pope to go to hell among other horrors asking for the
beheading of those who insult Islam!
catholiclondoner.blogspot.com/2006/09/very-rushed-post.html
Vickie
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Of course I am here for a reason. But between the two of us, it might not be healthy for you to assume you know what it is.NO. A Christian would never pray fo someone to go to Hell. Christians are commanded to pray for all people. I pray that God give you the Grace to see Heaven. One word of advice, for you, myself, and others, though. Do not be arrogant! When the Lord leads, you need to remember this. I have been and probably still am very stubborn and arrogant spiritually. My way to the Church was long, difficult, and painful. It did not have to be this way.
You are here for a reason.
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