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athair_siochain
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Much of the “evidence” put forward to lambaste the Quran by none Muslims is false and mischeivious, can you find one Jew who will say a good word about the Quran,
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Christ_Is_Life
Guest
My point is that despite being able to pronounce and make the right sounds they don’t know what they are saying and what the meaning is. At best they could only know by someone trying to explain it to them in English. The only other alternative is for that person to go and live in Arabia, use the language and get a new frame of reference for the language and how it is used and even then it wouldn’t neccessarily match up to how it was used in the day of Mohammed.
How can a Muslim (most don’t know Arabic) debate Christians about the Koran use the argument that we don’t know Arabic. By that standard they aren’t in a position to comment or defend their own faith.
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Christ_Is_Life
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That can be said of all faiths nearly all have some apologetics that use suspect arguments. Just look at Zakir Naik, in one argument he was describing at how could a man of the desert have known about the stages of embrology because there was no influences (which is a greek idea traced back to at least several hundred years before if my memory serves me correct) and in the next breath he going on about how Mecca was the trading centre of the earth where all civilization passed through to defend another argument.
Finally, what is it about you and the Jews?
You have some hatred issues my friend. What good is any religion if you have hatred for anyone, it’s the biggest test for all human beings. I have studied the bodies response to human emotion. Did you know that anger is related to blood pressure and that by holding hatred you aren’t hurting the other person, only yourself?
How wise was Jesus to teach us to pray and love our enemies knowing that by doing so and releasing that haterd we are healing ourselves in the process. It’s only by doing this that we can begin to forfill our potential to fully grow in faith and love.
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Duong_Nguyen
Guest
I’ll agree that this is a misunderstanding of worship/intercession (ie Mary and saints-statues/images).
So I picked out this
iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/001a_smt.html
Sahih Muslim
Book 1, Number 0373:
Anas b Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Allah would gather people on the Day of Resurrection and they would be concerned about it, and Ibn Ubaid said. They would get a Divine inspiration about it, and would say: If we could seek intercession with our Lord, we may be relieved from this predicament of ours. He (the Holy Prophet) said: They would come to Adam andsay, Thou art Adam, the father of mankind. Allah created thee with His own hand and breathed unto thee of His Spirit and commanded the angels and they prostrated before thee. So intercede for us with thy Lords, that He may relieve us from this position of ours. He would say: I am not in a position to do this, and would recall his error, and would fight shy of his Lord on account of that; go to Noah the first messenger (after me) sent by Allah.
… (Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus)
You better go to Jesus, the Spirit of Allah and His word He would say: I am not in a position to do that for you; you better go to Muhammad (may peace be upon him), a servant whose former and later sins have been forgiven. He (the narrator) said: The Messenger or Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: So they would come to me and I would ask the permission of my Lord and it would be granted to me, and when I would see Him, I would fall down in prostration, and He (Allah) would leave me thus as long as He would wish, and then it would be said: O Muhammad, raise your head, say and you would be heard; ask and it would be granted; intercede and intercession would be accepted. Then I would raise my head and extrol my Lord with the praise which my Lord would teach me. I** shall then inter- cede, but a limit would be set for me I would bring them out from the Fire and make them enter Paradise (according to the limit)**. I shall return then ard fall down in pros- tration and Allah would leave me (in that position) as long as He would wish to leave me it would be said: Rise, O Muhammad, say and you would be heard; ask and it would be conferred; intercede and intercession would be granted. I would raise my head and extrol my Lord with praise that He would teach me. I would theft intercede and a limit would be set for me. I would bring them out of the Fire (of Hell) and make them enter Paradise. He (the narrator) said: I do not remember whether he (the Holy Prophet) said at the third time or at the fourth time: O my Lord, none has been left in the Fire, but thise restrained by the Holy Qur’an, i e. those who were eternally doomed. Ibn Ubaid said in a narration: Qatada observed: whose everlasting stay was imperative".
I skimmed through the Q’uran and the message is clear that no one (alive or dead?) can intercede for us to Allah.
Would you clarify this passage about Muhammad interceding for those who come to him on the Day of Resurrection?
I apologize for cutting it in the middle, this post would have been more than 6000 characters.
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morning_star777
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Oh my friend thank you very much
.So finally we have found a praise to Muhammad
.It was famous here in bangladesh.So I hope, now our favorite sister Amy will not blame us for “Hail Mary”.
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Reuben_J
Guest
I thought it is quite standard position among Muslims, at least those that I came across so very often, that Prophets did not sin but only made mistakes. Muslims consider as untrue the sins that Prophets committed in the Bible.
I have not heard yet where Muslims say that Mohammad had sinned. Maybe Sister Amy would like to clarify this?
I have not heard yet where Muslims say that Mohammad had sinned. Maybe Sister Amy would like to clarify this?
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Sister_Amy
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Muslims believe that one day the earth is going to be essentially destroyed, and that everyone who ever lived is going to be resurrected–hence, it’s called the Day of Resurrection. So everyone who ever lived will be alive–from Adam to Noah, to Muhammad, and Jesus. The intercession in the above hadith is not made to a person who is dead, because everyone is going to be alive. And the intercession is specifically for the Judgment to begin. In fact there’s other kinds of intercession on that day, but on that day remember that everyone will be alive. It is not praying to someone who has died.
I hope that clarifies it for you.
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Sister_Amy
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I actually seem to get this question a lot, and that’s expected since even many Muslims misunderstand the issue. And the way I understand it (I will give you a reference from where I get this opinion) is as follows:I thought it is quite standard position among Muslims, at least those that I came across so very often, that Prophets did not sin but only made mistakes. Muslims consider as untrue the sins that Prophets committed in the Bible.
I have not heard yet where Muslims say that Mohammad had sinned. Maybe Sister Amy would like to clarify this?
Firstly, that Prophets are free of major sins is the opinion of the majority of scholars (including qur’anic commentators, hadith scholars, and jurists.) (The word “major” is a technical term to describe a class of sins which have been specified along with some form of punishment in this life or the next, or have been explicitly stated as being a sin. For instance, lying, adultery are “major sins.”)
Regarding minor sins, the majority opinion is that Prophets are not free from them. Proof for that opinion is the disobedience of Adam when he ate from the tree.
You will undoubtedly find, even on this very forum, a Muslim who refuses to acknowledge that any Prophet, Muhammad in particular, ever sinned. I think the Shi’a in particular take that opinion as well as some lesser-informed among the Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah.
However, when it comes to the teaching of Islam, it is believed that the Propehts are infallible. So in worldly matters they might make mistakes, or sin, but when it comes to transmitting the message which has been revealed to them, they do not make mistakes in it. Period.
Here is a link I references when making this post.
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Sister_Amy
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The Qur’an describes people who do this–they recite their book, and study it, without knowing what it means.
For sure there are Muslims who do this, and they are missing out. Because there was another nation described who did the same thing. And it was the Jews actually, who used to learn and study their book without learning the language.
So 'Umar commanded Muslims to teach their children Arabic like they taught them Qur’an, as Arabic is a part of the religion.
Reciting the Qur’an in Arabic for worship, without understanding it, is a good thing. But if a person doesn’t understand it, he’s really not doing everything for the Qur’an that he should. The Qur’an wasn’t revealed to be mindlessly recited, but to remind the people of their Lord, and of the Last Day.
That said, the Qur’an uses only a very small number of words in the Arabic language, less than 5%, most of which are repeated such that about 300 words make up more than 80% of the Qur’an. It is not too difficult to learn.
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meedo
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Hello and thank you for your question,
The quran sates clearly in teh end of Chaper 2 that intercession is permissible with the permission of God. Meaning that God will bestow permission on certain people ( in fact many , and not just prophets ) and he would accept their demands. hese peopel where men and women of God in this life.
This passage is simply one of these permissions.
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YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
PICKTHAL: Allah! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.
SHAKIR: Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His;** who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?** He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.
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In the case of the situation you quoted above, there is nop fere of idolatry in teh intercession simply because Muhammed will be one of the people like every body else and God will be seen and known to be God. no fear of any undue elevation of the status of muhammed to any sort of divinity or worship.
again, the understanding of worship in Islam is different than in Christianity. ¨
best regards,
meedo
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Reuben_J
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Sister_Amy
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Derrrr… I made so many typos in that post. Whoa. I’m glad to be back using Mozilla again so it catches my spelling errors… rofl.Thanks and noted.
The bolded part is consistent with Christians belief.
I wanted to ask, though, about the bolded part–it’s consistent with Christian beliefs about prophets? Or about the Pope? Or what exactly? (I wasn’t sure that Christians had beliefs in “prophets” per se, which is why I’m asking.)
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Reuben_J
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About prophets.
An issue of constant disagreement with a particular Muslim poster here. You see, Muslims consider some Biblical Kings and Patriarchs as prophets while Christianity sees them playing dual roles – prophets and administrators or heads of their clans. They were God fearing people but they did fall sometimes and committed sins too. Christians see all these as good teachings on what to do and what not. The exclusive prophets (like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, John the Baptist, etc) usually had less problem in their lives with regards to sin though some like Jonah tended to question God on certain issue.Thus even though prophets sinned they were still the mouthpiece for God and so the message they brought was true – a position that you also take.
As for the Pope there has been much misunderstanding regarding this office especially with Protestants. He is only infallible in matter of faith and moral – subject that is already believed by the community and agreed to. On others he is just like you and I. He can make mistake, in error and commit sin. Of course being Pope, strictly speaking he is much better than most Christians in term of knowledge and holiness but that’s his personal capacity.
I can go on and tell you about all Christians are being exhorted as ‘prophets’ but that may confuse others here
Hope that helps.
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Sister_Amy
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Yes, that helps a lot.
Prophets, like Samuel for instance. I gotcha. Not David.
Prophets, like Samuel for instance. I gotcha. Not David.
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athair_siochain
Guest
the truth being told, cant be called hatred,
a good person does not have any enemies,
a person who loves his neighbour does not have enemies., so whats the point of praying,
I am trying to balance to fight, one I cant win because the Zionist control the media,
so why did Jesus throw the moneylenders out of the Temple
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swariffin
Guest
First, the moneylenders were monopolizing the gift to God.
Second, the moneylenders occupied the spaces used by the Jews who recognize their sins, dared not to enter the temple, but has great desire to repent. Usually they prayed in this area, but this area were full of moneylenders.
Third, the moneylenders were the extension of the Jewish leader making money out of the people who were looking for God. Looks like the corrupt Indonesian government officers who tried to extort money from the Indonesian Hajj pilgrims on their way to Mecca.
BTW, why the moneylenders did not fight back?
Second, the moneylenders occupied the spaces used by the Jews who recognize their sins, dared not to enter the temple, but has great desire to repent. Usually they prayed in this area, but this area were full of moneylenders.
Third, the moneylenders were the extension of the Jewish leader making money out of the people who were looking for God. Looks like the corrupt Indonesian government officers who tried to extort money from the Indonesian Hajj pilgrims on their way to Mecca.
BTW, why the moneylenders did not fight back?
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Christ_Is_Life
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I have to say the word ‘enemy’ comes over very strong and the kind of association that comes with the word was not the generic meaning I wanted to make of it and I’m sure I’m not the first to fall into this trap.
‘Enemy’ from my perspective is in the perception of the individual, it can be anything from a personal level where you find out someone has been talking behind your back, twisting the truth or potraying a picture of you in a poor light. Alternatively, it could be something far more obvious or systematic but ultimately I would term it as someone who we perceive as opposing ourselves.
I don’t subscribe to generalisations because they are dangerous, which is what you seem to be doing. To say all one group of people are evil is wrong and it’s racist. That would be my response to your ‘truth’. However there may well be a bit of truth in what you are saying, that’s the important thing to distinguish between getting people to oppose one group of people based on their race and making a separate distinction on the basis of an act of some sort.
Are you Catholic? If you are your statements seem to challenge our Lord Jesus. Are you denying that Jews are your ‘enemies’? If I were to introduce you to someone and 2 minutes later before you had a chance to form an opinion he mentions he’s Jewish, what feelings would go through your body? Would your opinion of him change? Would you act differently towards him? You don’t have to answer me just answer yourself.
Are you a good person by your own standards?
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Lapell
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I know of one, sir! André Chouraqui, who did one translation of the Qu’ran, and I can assure he did it with a great esteem for the Islamic faith. Surprised?
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Lapell
Guest
Muhammad had enemies! i thought he was supposed to be a good person?
Same with Moses. And the Prophets. And King David. And, yes, Jesus!
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Lapell
Guest
Do Muslims have the same definition of a prophet as the Jews and the Christians? (First and foremost, that he is one of God’s spokepeople to his fellow people.)
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