I
inJESUS
Guest
yes, so i can digest an ignorant claiming Christians worship Mary, but i cannot digest it coming from an all-knowing.
- Status
I
inJESUS
Guest
however, the verse is not saying what you are implying. If the author is not accusing Christians of worshipping Mary, the verse becomes totally meaningless. It is like Smith saying that God on the last day will ask Muhammad if he instructed anyone to worship Aisha or Khadija or Amina or uthman; you wouldn’t believe for a second that God will ask such meaningless questions at the day of judgment againt Muslims. This verse is clearly putting Jesus and Mary on exactly the same level to Christians and another verse says again that both Jesus and Mary used to eat food which hints at Christian belief that Mary, like Jesus, is not a human and both are false. I quote from an Islamic site:
The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed a way before him. His mother (Mary) was a Siddiqah i.e. she believed in the Words of Allah and His Books. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded a way (from the truth). Surah 6: 72-75
So this is another verse equalling Jesus with Mary that does not represent Christianity since we never claimed Mary to be God, nor do we disbelieve in Jesus’ humanity. This verse is totally meaningless to Christians and false.
Here is another verse about again and again Jesus and Mary:
Surely in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say (0 Muhammad): “Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?”
Again, the author is saying Allah can destroy both Jesus and Mary in an attempt to disprove their divinity.
The problem is that you do not want to see that the all-knowing failed to adress Christianity while accusing Christians. 3 verses about equality between Jesus and Mary for heaven’s sake, and you believe these are from an all-knowing who is “clearing doubts” when the only one in doubt is the one who uttered these things.
J
Jay53
Guest
I understand that the apparitions have no basis in Islamic theology, but that doesn’t mean they don’t happen now. Obviously they wouldn’t have a basis in Islamic theology -they didn’t happen at the time of Muhammad so he wouldn’t have included them in the Quran. Am I to understand then that Islam is a “closed” religion in that it will not accept any messages from God today or in the future, particularly if they contradict the Quran? (If so, that’s fine - I’m just trying to understand the belief.)
And I’m sorry you don’t like to discuss the Marian apparitions, I do believe in them (the ones approved by the Church, anyhow) and their messages. They are not the basis for my faith, but I find the stories fascinating and inspiring.
I wonder if that’s why there is such resistance to believing that these apparitions happened/happen - they will bring many to Christianity.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
You can call Islam a “closed” religion but I would call it a complete religion, and a comprehensive religion. It covers all aspects of a person’s life, and it was completed by Allah during the time of Muhammad. There is nothing that needs to be added to it–in the manner of beliefs or practices–to improve it. And adding to it, or taking away from it, is nothing other than a sin which takes a person away from Islam.
I
inJESUS
Guest
I remember a year ago we had a Muslim couple on tv. They lost their only son and did not have children anymore. The woman did not dispair, she prayed on Christmas eve, saying “Maryam (Mary), just as you gave birth to your son the Christ, please pray for me that God gives me another son” . The woman was a bit old, in the begining of her fifties i guess, and on Christmas eve the next year, she gave birth to a son and gave her testimony on Christmas eve on tv. I don’t know if some Muslims would like to attribute this to satan, but the woman did, out of despair, what is forbidden in Islam, and God answered back:thumbsup:
J
Jay53
Guest
Is there a verse in the Quran that says that God/Allah will not interact with humans until the last day - that nothing needs to be added to the Quran? Is this what all Muslims believe?
R
ralphinal
Guest
So, then, if a Muslim claims that the Qur’an or ahadith says that we worship Mary, they are wrong.Right. No human has that right.
Only God has that right.
Right?
(That being said, we may refer to the ayah in the thread title, which does not say that anybody worships Mary, but rather that Jesus never instructed anyone to worship her.)
If a Muslim claims that we are making idols by having statues and paintings, they are wrong.
All this says is that Jesus did not say to worship Mary.
So far, so good?
S
sedonaman
Guest
If we are counting sentences, then there are only two places in the Koran that have the word “neighbor”: 4.36 and 33.60.
We can’t even count 33.60 as having anything to do with loving your neighbor. It says, “If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;”
4.36 says, “And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful;”
The “neighbors” in 4.36 are clearly fellow Muslims [those a Muslim would likely to encounter], not everybody, certainly not kafirs [unbelievers] nor Jews. In the New Testament, Jesus answers “Who is my neighbor?” with a story of how a Samaritan helped a Jew who had been beaten, robbed, and left for dead. To understand how broad the word “neighbor” meant in this Gospel, you have to know that the Jews and Samaritans did not like each other very much. The same impact can be understood better by Muslims if a Muslim asked Mohammad “Who is my neighbor?” and he told the same story but made a Muslim the victim and a Jew the one who helped him.
The reason Christians are to love everyone is because God made all mankind in His image and likeness, because God loves everyone, even unbelievers and those who hate Him. That is why Jesus said, “Whoever does to the least of my brethren, he does to me.” Where does any Islamic foundational text say anything coming close to everyone being made in Allah’s image and likeness?
There are plenty of places in the Koran about believers loving Allah, Allah loving believers, and believers loving each other. And there are many places that say Allah hates kafirs. But where in the Koran does it mention Muslims must love everyone, even the Jews, because Allah loves even kafirs? [And don’t try that old “taken-out-of-context” excuse.]
While the Bible sentences might be few, they carry a powerful message, one better than “Kill the infidel wherever you find him.”
If you want a statistical treatise on the Koran, we have to establish which Koran you are talking about. Consider the following:
“It is time to dwell a moment on the word ‘kafir.’ The strict meaning of kafir is ‘unbeliever’, but ‘unbeliever’ [in English] is a neutral term. The Koran defines kafir by its usage. Kafirs can be robbed, raped, crucified, tortured, deceived, enslaved, plotted against, insulted, and more. ‘Kafir’ is the worst word in human language.
"Moderates are using the Koran to prove the radicals to be wrong
“Anytime anyone references only the Koran when he is talking about Islam, you are dealing with a deceiver or an ignorant person. The Koran is only 16% of the Islamic canon. The Koran does not have enough in it to accomplish even one of Islam’s vaunted Five Pillars. The Sira and the Hadith compromise the 84% of Islamic canon that shows a Muslim how to be a Muslim.
“The Hadith devotes 20% of its text to jihad. The Sira devotes 75% of its words to jihad. Which ‘moderate’ [Muslim] can deny those facts?
“The Meccan Koran devotes 67% of its words towards kafirs, not Muslims. The Medinan Koran devotes 51% of its material to the kafir. Out of all this material in the Koran, some of it in Mecca seems to promise goodness to the kafir, but the later Koran takes away the chance of goodness.
“The ‘radicals,’ the Medinan Muslims, are right. The Meccan Muslims are deceivers, perhaps of themselves, but certainly deceivers without any doctrinal basis.
“Let’s vet the Muslim experts. If anything they say agrees with Mohammad then they are right. If anything the Muslim says disagrees with Mohammad, then he is wrong. So who needs a Muslim? Go straight to Mohammad, the Sira, and the Hadith. We don’t need hearsay; we need facts – Mohammad’s facts and not Islamic gossip.
“I don’t care about what any Muslim says, except Mohammad. Actually, there is one, and only one, Muslim who will give you the straight truth – an apostate, one who has left Islam.”
So, which Koran are you talking about?
Ref: “Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude”, by Bill Warner
S
sedonaman
Guest
According to Muslims, how can Mohammad be in heaven and not Mary?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
There are three questions in this post.
The answer to the first is no, the answer to the second is yes, and the answer to the third, if it refers to the second only, is yes.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Muslims do not believe that Muhammad is “in heaven.”
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Depends on the Qur’an or hadith.
No, they are right.
But this isn’t the only time the subject comes up.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
So are you saying God only answers prayers directed to Mary?
D
dzheremi
Guest
Hi Sedonaman,
Please see this thread, specifically post #89 by Sister Amy.
Islam apparently does not have any teaching comparable to the Christian teachings in this area.
D
dolphinlove
Guest
Where in that quote did InJesus saying only praying to Mary will have our prayers answered? Get a grip.
InJesus was just sharing a beautiful story with us to show us a special miracle that by praying to Mary as an intercession to God, our prayers are still answered.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
A person who prayed to Satan, or outrightly to an idol, could claim the same thing.
God is the one who answers prayers. I don’t understand (I could say that I refuse to) the concept of praying to anyone else when ultimately He is the one who answers.
S
sedonaman
Guest
I read her post, and my conclusion is that, as is with most other words used by Muslims, “rights” does not have the same meaning as the Christian meaning. Also, the link she provided in a subsequent post lists “Neighbour’s rights” but as I read between the lines, it means a Muslim’s Muslim “neighbor”. This paragraph describes “neighbors” as those we would call “friends and relatives”. In short, the “rights” listed are more in the nature of social obligations. Plus, the fact remains that Mohammed, their “perfect” example, never treated kafirs the same as he treated Muslims.
She starts off saying, “First of all, everyone has the same rights.” Then she goes on to explain how some have more rights than others: “There are five specific rights which a Muslim has on other Muslims which the rest of mankind does not have…” How can both statement’s be true? The answer is the duality of Muslim thought. As I posted before, Westerners use unitary thought. That is why talking with Muslims is confusing at times.
“…So every human being has certain rights. The rights to their life, to their property, to their dignity for example.”
Then how do Muslims justify suicide murder? I don’t hear any imams denouncing it.
She uses the term “human being”, and at the same time, she admits there is no Islamic belief that man is created in the image and likeness of God. How do you have a concept of “human being” without a concept of their being created in the image and likeness of God? This is what separates human beings from animals. This belief is the source of true equality: that everyone is equally love by God. [This is also where we get the idea that all should be equal before the law.] So there is no the concept of “human being” inside Islam, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever.
I will say that it is refreshing that she admits this. Perhaps she can explain why Allah created man.
S
sedonaman
Guest
Then what is the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem all about? Isn’t that rock the place where Muslims believe Mohammad ascended to heaven? Or do you have a different definition of “heaven”?
D
dzheremi
Guest
The difference, Sister Amy, is that intercession on behalf of Mary before the Lord is still bringing the prayer to God. It is not praying to another so much as it is praying through the Holy Mother.
Someone who is an idoler is praying to an idol that is God to them; likewise, someone who is a Satanist and prays to Satan will attribute their “answered” prayer to Satan. When someone prays for Mary’s intercession before the Lord and receives an answer it shows the effectiveness of intercession - NOT that Mary herself is able to answer for God or anything like that (because we, of course, do not believe that she is God or anything like that). It is still God who answers the prayer because we are still praying to him through Mary.
The couple who were blessed with the child in the story inJESUS told had their prayer answered by God, and they prayed through Mary because of her unique position in relation to their difficulty (being without a doubt the most recognized mother ever). It worked because intercession works. They honored His mother, and He heard and honored their request. God is great.
They could have just as easily prayed directly to God without reference to Mary, but obviously they understood the connection to be made with respect to their specific situation, so it must have felt like the right thing to do. If it was not, why would God have blessed them so? Does God bless those who break his commandments? What else explains their son?
Maybe they did wrong by Islam and maybe they’ll need to repent for it, but for Catholics this is the real work of the Lord that even those who reject His Son may still be blessed by their recognition of another of the Holy family. Truly God loves everyone, and understands intention much better than Muslims do.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Sure, Muhammad ascended into the heavens.
And then he returned to earth. He isn’t still there.
- Status