Quran 5:32

[Jay53]

Hello All!

This verse was brought up in another thread and I asked some questions, but did not receive an actual answer. (I believe there was an answer that skirted the issue.) Anyhow, I am trying to develop an understanding of this verse and have some questions:

005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for **spreading mischief in the land **- it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

Now, the other verse that was quoted said “for just cause” in place of the bolded phrases above. I’m assuming that was just a different translation, but it does not change my questions.

My questions are:

1. What is meant by mischief in the land (or just cause)? Who decides what that means? Is there a list as to what that encompasses?
   a. Does this include evangelization by other faiths to Muslims - is that considered mischief and punishable by death?
2. Why does this verse say “did We prescribe for the Children of Israel”? Can anyone give me the Jewish law/text that supports this phrase?

I have other questions, but I think I need these answered before I can formulate any others.

Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

:newidea: Is the phrase for the “children of Israel” in reference to one of the 10 Commandments: “Thou shalt not kill” ? If so, is there an additional Jewish text that includes “unless it be for murder or mischief in the land”?

Thank you.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Wow, so I just skimmed the entire book of Deuteronomy to answer this question… lol.

Anyway… let’s see. Let me first say that this verse is talking about the Children of Israel–and the laws for that people. That’s why it says “We ordained for the Children of Israel…”

1. The Arabic phrase used in this verse is “fasadin fee al-ard” which literally means corruption in the earth. It does not mean “just cause,” perhaps that’s what a translator wrote, implying that the corruption was a cause justly responded to with penalty of death. But the Arabic is “corruption in the earth.”

If you’d like to know what counts as “corruption in the earth,” there are a number of passages (in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, for instance) describing the offenses for which a person must be put to death, according to God’s Law as put down in the Torah.

1. a. Let me repeat that the verse is talking overtly about the Children of Israel–and not specifically the Muslims. And if a person leaves the worship of God to follow other gods, and then calls others to that, then that is disobedience described in Deuteronomy, and it is punishable by death. In fact, here’s the passage:

Deut 13: 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

1. The Children of Israel (i.e., the Israelites,) are the descendants of Abraham–>Isaac–>Jacob, who God brought out of slavery in Egypt. They were sent a messenger, Moses, who taught them God’s Law. In Hebrew it is called the Torah. When Allah says in the Qur’an that he prescribed something for the Children of Israel, it is talking about the Torah, or the teachings of prophets/messengers sent to that people.

I couldn’t find a specific passage saying that if a person killed another except for retaliation or as a punishment as prescribed, that it would be like killing all of mankind. But I only looked in Deuteronomy.

But as to the laws prescribed for the Children of Israel, Deuteronomy and Leviticus make excellent reading. I was stunned to find in the book of Deuteronomy for instance how often the Almighty stressed the importance of adhering to the commandments He prescribed, and neither adding or subtracting anything from them.

 

[Jay53]

Does this mean that Muslims view the old covenant from the Old Testament as intact and that all those laws are still to be followed and that they do not acknowledge that Jesus established the new covenant? And, would this reasoning be in light of the fact that they view the Bible as corrupted?

And, Sister Amy, thank you for reading all of Deuteronomy to answer this! (I really didn’t mean to make more work for anyone! )

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

Does this mean that Muslims view the old covenant from the Old Testament as intact

God sent holy books to some Prophetd (pbut) with some new laws. Then previous laws/ rules bacame invalid. Such as alcohol was allowed in the past . In the time of Muhammed (p) , it became forbidden.

But killing innocent person is a major sin regarding Quran & the previous scripture. God reminded us of that law in Quran.

Jesus (p) & other Prophets came to specific people only . Muhammed (p) was sent as a mercy for all . Quran is valid till the last day . The new laws Jesus (p) got from God Almighty are not to be followed now after the Last Holy book came from God Almighty. Even after the second coming of Jesus (p) , he won’t start any new law or religion , he will preach Islam

I know , Christians won’t accept it but it’s our belief.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Does this mean that Muslims view the old covenant from the Old Testament as intact and that all those laws are still to be followed and that they do not acknowledge that Jesus established the new covenant? And, would this reasoning be in light of the fact that they view the Bible as corrupted?

Muslims believe that the Torah was revealed by God, or inspired by God. Perhaps it’s important to point out that Torah and Old Testament are not equivalent words. The Torah is specifically the first five books of the Old Testament only–the Books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. And that is what Muslims believe was given to Moses, by God.

Muslims also believe in a scripture called Injeel in Arabic, which can probably be best translated as ‘Gospel.’ It is not a text at all, however, not today, but rather it’s best to understand it as being the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The Qur’an says something interesting to the Jews, and to the Christians, whom it collectively calls “the People of the Book.” It’s in the same chapter, actually, as the verse you quoted. It says:

Say, “O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people. 5:68

I think that’s a really interesting verse. It doesn’t mean that Muslims believe that everything is still “in tact” by which I mean, as it was revealed, but that it is important for the People of the Book to at least hold on to what they have–because if they don’t even follow their own scripture, what have they got, then?

But you asked me then about Jesus making a new covenant. That question alone is fascinating to me, because if you keep reading the passage after that verse I quoted, you will see a segment of the Qur’an that is talking explicitly about Christians, and rather pointing out the flaws (from the Muslim point of view) in their argument.

And, Sister Amy, thank you for reading all of Deuteronomy to answer this! (I really didn’t mean to make more work for anyone! )

I am so glad I did it, actually. I mean, the constant emphasis on following the law was really eye-opening. How many times God stressed the importance of staying obedient was really amazing.

 

[Jay53]

Muslims believe that the Torah was revealed by God, or inspired by God. Perhaps it’s important to point out that Torah and Old Testament are not equivalent words. The Torah is specifically the first five books of the Old Testament only–the Books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. And that is what Muslims believe was given to Moses, by God.

Muslims also believe in a scripture called Injeel in Arabic, which can probably be best translated as ‘Gospel.’ It is not a text at all, however, not today, but rather it’s best to understand it as being the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The Qur’an says something interesting to the Jews, and to the Christians, whom it collectively calls “the People of the Book.” It’s in the same chapter, actually, as the verse you quoted. It says:

Say, “O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people. 5:68

I think that’s a really interesting verse. It doesn’t mean that Muslims believe that everything is still “in tact” by which I mean, as it was revealed, but that it is important for the People of the Book to at least hold on to what they have–because if they don’t even follow their own scripture, what have they got, then?

But you asked me then about Jesus making a new covenant. That question alone is fascinating to me, because if you keep reading the passage after that verse I quoted, you will see a segment of the Qur’an that is talking explicitly about Christians, and rather pointing out the flaws (from the Muslim point of view) in their argument.

I am so glad I did it, actually. I mean, the constant emphasis on following the law was really eye-opening. How many times God stressed the importance of staying obedient was really amazing.

I did continue to read the verses after the passage you quoted (from this source: masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch5.html

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, “O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord.” Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
Footnote

This is not meant to be inflammatory to anyone, but after reading those verses and the footnotes (where it actually tries to say that in the Gospel of John Jesus admits He is not God) and reflecting on them this evening, I have become convinced that Satan was involved in the Quran. This idea was suggested by someone else, and I had been on the fence with that, but now I am convinced. (Please note that it is not just from that verse, but a totality of what I have been reading and reflecting on in the last few months.) Satan is the only one who would want to deny the divinity of Jesus as it takes power away from him.

I also came across a book at Adoration tonight (coincidentally - or maybe not ) called The Deceiver by Livio Fanzaga. You may find this book interesting to read. It’s all about Satan and how he deceives us. It also discusses the temptation of Jesus in the desert. (Matthew 4:1-11). I’m not sure if the Quran discusses this at all - I’m inclined to think it wouldn’t because if it (the Quran) is indeed from Satan, he would not want to admit to any defeats no matter how large or small. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that for me. ?? Please note that the book is not in any way anti-Islam - in fact, I don’t think it even mentions Islam at all. If anyone has a chance to read this, I’d love to know what you think.

I do have one more question - off topic from my original question - you know, I think since it is, I’ll just start another thread after I do a search, just in case it’s already been answered.

Thank you, Sister Amy, once again for your help!

Edit: I found the answer to my off topic question, so never mind!!

 

[Eucharisted]

I did continue to read the verses after the passage you quoted (from this source: masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch5.html
This is not meant to be inflammatory to anyone, but after reading those verses and the footnotes (where it actually tries to say that in the Gospel of John Jesus admits He is not God) and reflecting on them this evening, I have become convinced that Satan was involved in the Quran. This idea was suggested by someone else, and I had been on the fence with that, but now I am convinced. (Please note that it is not just from that verse, but a totality of what I have been reading and reflecting on in the last few months.) Satan is the only one who would want to deny the divinity of Jesus as it takes power away from him.

I also came across a book at Adoration tonight (coincidentally - or maybe not ) called The Deceiver by Livio Fanzaga. You may find this book interesting to read. It’s all about Satan and how he deceives us. It also discusses the temptation of Jesus in the desert. (Matthew 4:1-11). I’m not sure if the Quran discusses this at all - I’m inclined to think it wouldn’t because if it (the Quran) is indeed from Satan, he would not want to admit to any defeats no matter how large or small. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that for me. ?? Please note that the book is not in any way anti-Islam - in fact, I don’t think it even mentions Islam at all. If anyone has a chance to read this, I’d love to know what you think.

I do have one more question - off topic from my original question - you know, I think since it is, I’ll just start another thread after I do a search, just in case it’s already been answered.

Thank you, Sister Amy, once again for your help!

If Mohammd was visited by an angel, then Satan would be the author of his revelations. He would not allow the Cross to be believed in, because he knows it is power and victory over evil.

However, there is a book called The Original Sources of the Qu’ran that shows that much of what Mohammed said was revelation was really only his own thoughts and other teachings from other religions.

Still, the devil is the father of liars, and just as the Holy Spirit is silent, so too he would be silent, hiding in the shadows lest he be seen and his plans foiled.

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, “O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord.” Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
Footnote

Interesting. Jesus said “I am going to my Father and your Father, My God and your God”. (My paraphrase) If what Jay quoted is in the Qu’ran, or a Hadith, and not just a footnote in the book, then it would seem Mohammed read that bible verse (“I am going…”), but did not understand it.

From a face value, it would appear as if Jesus is saying God is His Heavenly Father, as any Jew would, and declaring His mortality. However, as any Christian theologian will tell you, the Lord always speaks about Himself to man: Jesus is saying He is going to ascend to Heaven, referring to His Ascension, and He is speaking about His two natures, His Divinity and His Humanity; for as God, He is the Son of the Father (“My Father…My God”) and as Man, He is a Jew, a child of God, and the Messiah (“Your Father…Your God”).

Granted, Islam scholars don’t accept this interpretation, because it dosen’t fit into the beliefs of Islam. However, since the New Testament was complied by the Church of Christ, you have to play by the Church’s rules: meaning, you cannot give a verse an interpretation which it dose not have, because then you would be misinterpreting the verse, and so, your knowledge would be flawed, and hence, invalid on the whole. This is the error that Mohammed seems to make, by misinterpreting the bible verse - if he is indeed quoting it (well, paraphrasing it at least). Still, Islam believes Christians misinterept the bilbe, or that the bible is corrupted, or the bible is lost - it’s different excuses each time the inerrancy of the Scriptures comes up. Nonetheless, it’s no good to speak to someone who won’t listen, because of their hardness of heart.

 

[Eucharisted]

Just to clarify, my above post about the quote Jay gave hinges upon it being either a part of the Qu’ran or a Hadith. If it is neither, than my post is invalid on the whole.

 

[Jay53]

Just to clarify, my above post about the quote Jay gave hinges upon it being either a part of the Qu’ran or a Hadith. If it is neither, than my post is invalid on the whole.

It appears to be the Quran. Here’s another source I use. (It’s #72.) islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm How do you know if it is a hadith? Is there something in the chapter/verse listing that would indicate as such?

 

[Eucharisted]

I wouldn’t know if it’s in the hadith. But google is your friend: there are plenty of Muslim sites with authentic hadiths you can check through.

You know, it’s funny. Surah 5:72 contradicts Surah 2:62. To show what I mean:

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

5.72. They do blaspheme who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

How can Christians be promised reward for believing in Allah, yet punished for worshipping Jesus as God, in the same book?

 

[Eucharisted]

Hello All!

This verse was brought up in another thread and I asked some questions, but did not receive an actual answer. (I believe there was an answer that skirted the issue.) Anyhow, I am trying to develop an understanding of this verse and have some questions:

Now, the other verse that was quoted said “for just cause” in place of the bolded phrases above. I’m assuming that was just a different translation, but it does not change my questions.

My questions are:

1. What is meant by mischief in the land (or just cause)? Who decides what that means? Is there a list as to what that encompasses?
   a. Does this include evangelization by other faiths to Muslims - is that considered mischief and punishable by death?
2. Why does this verse say “did We prescribe for the Children of Israel”? Can anyone give me the Jewish law/text that supports this phrase?

I have other questions, but I think I need these answered before I can formulate any others.

Thank you.

This might help: danielpipes.org/comments/115954

The person goes on a ride about Islam meaning peace, though, so not sure how reliable the individual really is.

 

[Jay53]

This might help: danielpipes.org/comments/115954

The person goes on a ride about Islam meaning peace, though, so not sure how reliable the individual really is.

Thanks for the article. I’m just viewing this verse as being wide open to interpretation as to what “mischief” means. That could be anything from saying something negative about Muhammad to adultery to littering to ??? I just was wondering in my original question if there was a ‘guide’ or list as to what that includes so that Muslims would know specifically who they’re allowed to kill. My guess is that the extremists in some countries who kill Christian missionaries could point to this verse as their justification for murder. Who can argue against that? Sister Amy pointed me to Deuteronomy and Leviticus for a list of sins punishable by death, but that led me to my question about Muslims following parts of the Old Testament vs. Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament. But then, Muslims will just claim that the Bible is corrupted and you can’t follow that. That is part of the reason why I am convinced that Satan is involved in this - he is extremely clever and is obviously determined to discredit Jesus.

Does anyone know, does the Quran mention any miracles of Jesus with regard to him casting out demons (i.e. Matthew 8:28 among others)? My theory is that it won’t mention it at all - Satan would not acknowledge any defeat of his minions.

 

[Eucharisted]

Thanks for the article. I’m just viewing this verse as being wide open to interpretation as to what “mischief” means. That could be anything from saying something negative about Muhammad to adultery to littering to ??? I just was wondering in my original question if there was a ‘guide’ or list as to what that includes so that Muslims would know specifically who they’re allowed to kill. My guess is that the extremists in some countries who kill Christian missionaries could point to this verse as their justification for murder. Who can argue against that? Sister Amy pointed me to Deuteronomy and Leviticus for a list of sins punishable by death, but that led me to my question about Muslims following parts of the Old Testament vs. Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament. But then, Muslims will just claim that the Bible is corrupted and you can’t follow that. That is part of the reason why I am convinced that Satan is involved in this - he is extremely clever and is obviously determined to discredit Jesus.

Does anyone know, does the Quran mention any miracles of Jesus with regard to him casting out demons (i.e. Matthew 8:28 among others)? My theory is that it won’t mention it at all - Satan would not acknowledge any defeat of his minions.

No, Jesus is not said to have exorcised demons.

Interestingly enough, though, Mohammed got a vision Peter had about the dietary law (Acts 10:9-16) and the the multiplications of bread miracles of Jesus mixed up, because the Qu’ran (5:111-1114) states Jesus made a table of plenty descend from heaven. (click on links)

• Viands - plural - means provisions, food. Viand - singular - means a choice or tasty dish.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

… Satan is the only one who would want to deny the divinity of Jesus

Jews don’t worship Jesus (p) as God . Do u think , they are influenced by Satan & thier holy book is from Satan as Jesus (p) is not mentioned there as God ?

 

[Jay53]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

Jews don’t worship Jesus (p) as God . Do u think , they are influenced by Satan & thier holy book is from Satan as Jesus (p) is not mentioned there as God ?

I’m not sure I understand your question - the Jew’s Holy Book was before Jesus - how would He be mentioned other than in the prophecies of His coming which I believe have been discussed on other threads.

As far as Satan influencing Jews so they don’t believe in Jesus now - I have no idea. My understanding of Judaism, which is admittedly limited, is that they don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah and are still waiting for the fulfillment of the prophecies. Islam, on the other hand, believes Jesus is the Messiah, but then explicity denies His divinity. I’m sure there is some issue/explanation there with differences in the Muslim/Jewish/Christian definition of “Messiah”. But I also don’t see Jews trying to “take over the world” (that is definately something Satan wants to do) and establish Judaism everywhere in the same way Islam demands the establishment of sharia law. But you bring up an interesting point - is there any Jewish text that explicitly denies the divinity of Christ and condemns any believers in Him to hell? That would be interesting to research - thank you Muslim Woman.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

I’m not sure I understand your question - the Jew’s Holy Book was before Jesus

if Jesus (p) is God & Jewish holy book is from God , then how come Jesus (p) is not mentioned by name in their holy book ?

• is there any Jewish text that explicitly denies the divinity of Christ

a warning : if u visit any Jewish sites to know about Jesus (p) , u will be hurt.

interesting to research - thank you Muslim Woman.

welcome pl. don’t forget to let me know what u find in your reserach .

 

[planten]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

Jews don’t worship Jesus (p) as God . Do u think , they are influenced by Satan & thier holy book is from Satan as Jesus (p) is not mentioned there as God ?

A very good question from Muslim Woman to Jay53. Jay and Eucharisted have been propagating their false preconcieved ideas about Islam while their own belief about the divinity of Jesus is a flawed item.

The making of a man as a god was strictly forbidden in the Torah. The christians are wrong in inviting others to the divinity of Jesus. They are wrong in the first place so they should amend their beliefs, not to invite other people to sinful beliefs.

It is clearly a sin to believe that Jesus is God. That matter was discussed much at the trial of Jesus. Jews were very angry and accusing Jesus to be (even) a son of God. They did not approve of the idea of Jesus being a son of God. How would they abhorr (dislike and hate) the idea of Jesus being a God.

Jesus being a son of God could be interpretted in some symbolic godd way that it was just by the love and not literal. But calling Jesus as God could never be interpretted by any one as being lawful.

Now here, it is being discussed by Jay and Eucharisted that Muhammad was decieved by the devil (Satan). Far from it. We Muslims do not believe that Jesus was tempted by a devil for forty days. We do not believe that satan ever came near to Jesus or his mother.

But the christians friends have a good heart of suggesting that Muhammad was misled by the devil. That is not “Do unto others as you would like to be done to you.” Please think over your wandering ideas ! According to Jay and Eucharisted, it is the devil who is the auther of The Book, i.e. Quran?? Please be sensible.

 

[planten]

**Moreover, Jesus was a Jew. He would never say that he was literally any son of God or that he was God. No Jew will say such a thing. And Jesus never said that he was a God and that he should be worshipped. The Church is taking the people on a ride in the wrong direction for a very long time now.

It has been enough and it would be better to re-think these wrong beliefs now, for the better.**

 

[Jay53]

**Moreover, Jesus was a Jew. He would never say that he was literally any son of God or that he was God. No Jew will say such a thing. And Jesus never said that he was a God and that he should be worshipped. The Church is taking the people on a ride in the wrong direction for a very long time now.

It has been enough and it would be better to re-think these wrong beliefs now, for the better.**

Jesus DID say He was God numerous times and I believe this has been discussed in other threads. I highly recommend you read the book I mentioned: The Deceiver by Livio Fanzaga It truly is not an anti-Islam book, but a book about how Satan deceives us. I think you would find it very enlightening!