Quran must verify what we (Jews and Christians) have

[sedonaman]

…

First Mohammed says the “People of the Book” should obey their Scriptures.

Now you say that Mohammed says the Scriptures are corrupt.

…

Your posts are very perceptive. If you are interested in pursuing this line of thought, I recommend a good, but long, analysis of your question, beginning here.

 

[sedonaman]

**

If I remember correctly, the words of Jesus have been described that every one who came before him was a robber or misleader.**

Provide some of the verses in the NT that prove this.

 

[planten]

Provide some of the verses in the NT that prove this.

sedonaman, please ask one of your elders first. Do not put the burden on me only. I have written what I knew from memory. I do not have any search engine. At least i know that you are un-aware of what I have alleged.( Jesus said That all who came before me were robbers or (something like that, buttmaar, false)

No harm. You can ask one of your learned ones. If there is no way to locate the words of Jesus in any gospel then you may ask me again. I will exert some effort in that direction.

Please, if you find the reference then post it and so that I also know about it. Thanks.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Muslims say that the Bible is corrupt. But the Quran doesn’t say that.

related links: Has the Bible Been Tampered With?

Q. Recently I was visited by a Christian missionary at my home. We had a good discussion on Islam and Christianity. When I told him that the Bible was changed and is not in its original form, he did not agree with me. He told me that there were many ancient manuscripts of the Bible in its original Hebrew and Greek languages available today. He also told me that according to the Qur’an, Bible is the word of God and the word of God cannot be changed

Ans. Muzammil Siddiqi

it is true that the Qur’an calls the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil as Allah’s books and messages given to prophets Moses, Dawud and Jesus, peace be upon all of them, respectively, but the Qur’an also says that these books as they exist today are not in their authentic and complete form.

Allah says, “They (i.e. Jews and Christians) changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them -except a few among them- bent on new deceits…” (al-Ma’idah: 13)

And He further says, “O People of the Book, now has come to you Our Messenger, clarifying to you much of that you used to conceal of the Book and passing over much (that is now unnecessary).” (al-Ma’idah 5:15) So our Islamic position is that the Bible has some true and authentic words of Allah, but it is not totally authentic. Some of its passages were lost and it had many additions and alterations.

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545430

Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?

Jesus (pbuh) is the Prophet who taught this Gospel during his earthly life. His mission on earth was closed after his being taken up to Heaven.

The Divine Gospel was not preserved in writing or by memorization. The early Christian community lived in horror and seclusion, so they could not come together nor could they protect the Gospel of Jesus.

The four evangelists thought for themselves to remember and write down some of Jesus’ sayings, and out of love and affection for him, they added to it or omitted from it something of an essential value.

Indeed, there are a lot of differences and discrepancies in the four Gospels. Luke himself, for example, stated in the introduction of his Gospel that he was just writing a story like many others who wrote about the life of Jesus. He never said that what he introduced to the Christians was divine or was exactly the same words uttered by Jesus.

So, we know this from the Gospels themselves and we know it from the Qur’an. The Qur’an clearly says that these divine Books were subject to distortion and this is our firm belief.

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546440

 

[sedonaman]

**sedonaman, please ask one of your elders first. **.

Let’s see. You want me to ask one of my “elders” for proof that “the words of Jesus have been described that every one who came before him was a robber or misleader.”

No. You made the claim, not me or any of my “elders”. It’s up to you to prove your own claim. No one else.

 

[planten]

Let’s see. You want me to ask one of my “elders” for proof that “the words of Jesus have been described that every one who came before him was a robber or misleader.”

No. You made the claim, not me or any of my “elders”. It’s up to you to prove your own claim. No one else.

**sedonaman, I know I said something. But why are you afraid to look things up yourself in the bible? it is in the bible, not in the Quran. So you have some responsibility. If you do not find it then tell me. I will find it for you.

Why you are afraid to ask any one?. May be that person you ask will be ignorant about it and won’t help you. But all of the Catholics are not ignorant and all are not dishonest. There will be some knowledgable good guy who will help you.

Until then trust me that it was said by Jesus.

May be some Muslim friend can help me,like sis Amy or MW or Slave of God. I am hopeful. You sedonaman, also do not lose hope.

**

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Until then trust me that it was said by Jesus.

I browsed & found this.

<< John 10:8 >>

All who came before me are thieves and bandits, but the sheep didn’t listen to them.

bible.cc/john/10-8.htm

 

[planten]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

I browsed & found this.

<< John 10:8 >>

All who came before me are thieves and bandits, but the sheep didn’t listen to them.

bible.cc/john/10-8.htm

**Thank you sister M W. I knew I ha dread it some where. But could not get to it. You have provided the reference. I am thankful. I do not know if sedonaman is thankful or not. He wanted the refrence. So it is John chapter 10 verse 8.

I am sure Jesus never said those bad words. We Muslims love Jesus who is Truely the son of a Lovely Woman.

**

 

[planten]

**I read John chapter 10 to 12. What Jesus said in verse 10:8 is all right and needs to be understood. It was all correct, what he said to the people, I have undestood it now. There is no problem , no defect.

However, a wrong meaning can easily be taken by the words of the verse. That wrong meaning should be avoided.**

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muslims say that the Bible is corrupt. But the Quran doesn’t say that.

No, I don’t think the Qur’an says the Bible is corrupt. But it does say “Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands” in the middle of a passage about Jews. Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands. That’s pretty near equivalent to saying that the Bible is corrupt. It’s 2:79 if you wanna look it up.

*But say, “We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One” * (29:46 AYA).

That’s right. And Muslims do believe in it.

In the Quran, Allah also says that:

And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah** verifying** that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir

Indeed. Do you know what this ayah is talking about? The Jews knew of a prophecy about Muhammad, they were expecting him to come. And when he came, he wasn’t Jewish like they thought, so they were hiding that part of their scriptures. He came to verify that, but they turned away and hid it. It’s pretty shameful, actually. The ayah certainly does not say that the Jewish scriptures are in perfect condition or anything.

Now, for many years, Mohammed put together a Quran. But mysteriously, after he died, Uthman burned the originals of that which Mohammed had put together and installed his own Quran. This isn’t true at all. When will people stop repeating this lie? My dear, you have been misinformed. The Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad, who recited it to His companions. Within two years after his death, a man named Zaid ibn Thabit was responsible for collecting the entire Qur’an into a single volume. Several years later, that volume was to be copied, which happened under the caliphate of Uthman. The same man, Zaid ibn Thabit, was also responsible for those copies. They were copies, no changes made, no need for changes to be made, nor any good would it make to have changes in 5 copies when the Qur’an was still being taught primarily by recitation and memory, and not by reading and writing.

Now, since Allah says that the Quran confirms the previous Scriptures. And since the Uthmanic Rescension contradicts the previous Scriptures. Doesn’t that mean the Uthmanic Rescension is corrupt?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Uthmanic Rescension? Utterly bizarre. The lie is growing. I hope you will offer me your sources, this is in fact a serious matter and one I hope might be corrected soon. I have authentic reports as to what I have offered you here, so I hope you can provide me with your source so I can correct him as well.

 

[Sister_Amy]

if this is so, it’d be a huge contradiction in the Quran. Yet the Quran talks about SOME people who MISINTERPRET the meaning, not about all people or even about textual corruptiion or even the scriptures because in other verses, it attests to those who follow the previous scriptures with reverence.

Otherwise, how can Muhammad CONFIRM a corrupt book?

He wasn’t confirming that everything in it was truth. Rather, he was confirming that in the first place it came from Allah. And confirming that it was prophesying of a prophet to come, who was Muhammad. About whom the Jews knew, but refused to acknowledge.

 

[Sister_Amy]

**

Muslims keep making that claim but the Quran itself does not make that claim. Therefore Muslims are making a claim here that is not in the Quran.

Therefore the burden of proof is on the Muslim who believes the Bible is corrupt. You must provide the proof. Simply saying so is not proof.

However, you had an original Quran, which was burnt and a copy substituted. The copy says that the Quran verifies the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures. Yet the copy itself contradicts the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures. Therefore it appears it is the copy which is in error.

---

But truth does not contradict itself. If the Quran is true, the Christian and Hebrew texts must be false. And if the Hebrew and Christian texts are true, then the Quran must be false.

The Quran says the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures are true.

The Quran says the Quran must verify the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures.

The Quran known as the Uthman Rescension contradicts the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures.

Therefore, the Quran known as the Uthman Rescension must be wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria**

Whoever made up this term “Uthman Rescension?” Good grief, they’ve sold you on it good and well. May we discuss this matter please?

To answer your question, it’s not really necessary for the Qur’an to prove that the Scriptures before it are authentic or not, changed or not. It’s only necessary for the Qur’an to prove that it’s the Word of God. That’s the big question. The only question, really.

Because if God told you that the previous scriptures had been corrupted or changed… would you ask Him for evidence, or wouldn’t you just take his word for it?

 

[Sister_Amy]

This thread is old. I didn’t realize.

 

[sedonaman]

**sedonaman, I know I said something. But why are you afraid to look things up yourself in the bible?
**

Why are you afraid to back up what you say? You never have. You just throw statements out and expect everyone to accept them.

I don’t have to look anything up in the Bible to show how absurd your claim is:

The foundations of Islam >> Doctrines of the Qur’an >> Prophecy:
“Prophets are men specially elected by God to be his messengers. Prophethood is indivisible, and the Qur’an requires recognition of all prophets as such without discrimination. Yet they are not all equal, some of them being particularly outstanding in qualities of steadfastness and patience under trial. Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Jesus were such great prophets.” – Britannica.com.

So according to your interpretation of what Jesus, a great prophet of Islam, said about those who came before him, such as Abraham, Noah, and Moses, is that they are all “robbers or misleaders”? Is that what you are saying? Because if you are, you have a lot of explaining to do as to why they are honored as prophets by Islam. On the other hand, you can, of course, admit you are wrong.

 

[swariffin]

**
It is not necessary for Quran to authenticate everything of the bible. Quran will support the right things only. We have shown that there is not even one bad word against Jesus or Mary or any other prophet in the Quran. If necessary, any one can check up.

But we see many things against many prophets are quite bad in the bible. There are all sorts of good and bad things in the bible. Quran cannot approve all that,. Quran has told its own version of the incidents with maximum praise of the prophets.

Then Quran has taught respect and belief in all prophets/ messengers of God. That is universal. It is not found in the bible. If I remember correctly, the words of Jesus have been described that every one who came before him was a robber or misleader. How can Quan approve that??**

How can Quran authenticate everything of the bible, while Quran mostly a collection of fables, legends and myths of OTHER believe?

 

[swariffin]

Whoever made up this term “Uthman Rescension?” Good grief, they’ve sold you on it good and well. May we discuss this matter please?

To answer your question, it’s not really necessary for the Qur’an to prove that the Scriptures before it are authentic or not, changed or not. It’s only necessary for the Qur’an to prove that it’s the Word of God. That’s the big question. The only question, really.

Because if God told you that the previous scriptures had been corrupted or changed… would you ask Him for evidence, or wouldn’t you just take his word for it?

You only based your posting on the what you called faith that Quran is the word of God. The point you never answer is why do you so sure that Quran is the word of God other than “Muhammad said so”.

 

[inJESUS]

No, I don’t think the Qur’an says the Bible is corrupt.

Strange Amy, i thought you previously believed the Quran says the Bible is corrupt, but seems you’re changing your mind

But it does say “Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands” in the middle of a passage about Jews. Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands. That’s pretty near equivalent to saying that the Bible is corrupt. It’s 2:79 if you wanna look it up. 015:091] .

 

[inJESUS]

He wasn’t confirming that everything in it was truth. Rather, he was confirming that in the first place it came from Allah.

and humanity needed Muhammad to confirm what God has been revealing for thousands of years Amy? Jews needed Muhammad to confirm their book and Christians needed Muhammad to confirm their book? no, it was Muhammad who needed the previous scriptures otherwise he has absolutely no basis for his claim and as such it is previous scriptures who must either prove or disprove him which means that there must be scriptures, not virtual ones.

And confirming that it was prophesying of a prophet to come, who was Muhammad. About whom the Jews knew, but refused to acknowledge

 

[inJESUS]

To answer your question, it’s not really necessary for the Qur’an to prove that the Scriptures before it are authentic or not, changed or not. It’s only necessary for the Qur’an to prove that it’s the Word of God. That’s the big question. The only question, really.

 

[planten]

Why are you afraid to back up what you say? You never have. You just throw statements out and expect everyone to accept them.

I don’t have to look anything up in the Bible to show how absurd your claim is:

The foundations of Islam >> Doctrines of the Qur’an >> Prophecy:
“Prophets are men specially elected by God to be his messengers. Prophethood is indivisible, and the Qur’an requires recognition of all prophets as such without discrimination. Yet they are not all equal, some of them being particularly outstanding in qualities of steadfastness and patience under trial. Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Jesus were such great prophets.” – Britannica.com.

So according to your interpretation of what Jesus, a great prophet of Islam, said about those who came before him, such as Abraham, Noah, and Moses, is that they are all “robbers or misleaders”? Is that what you are saying? Because if you are, you have a lot of explaining to do as to why they are honored as prophets by Islam. On the other hand, you can, of course, admit you are wrong.

** sedonaman, No, I do not have to admit that I am wrong. But your man made book is so brief that it creates problems for any clear understanding. Previously we were disturbed and we were discussing that Jesus said “Do not call any one your father on earth. There is only one father who is in heavens.” That was true but needed explaining. Even after explanation, it turned out that it was not any real relation but it was a spiritual relation.

Now here, some one has written the bible and said that Jesus said “All who came before me were robbers…” Now you take that sentence and then start digging into it to get to the right meaning. What type of books your authors have written by their own hands. And then they say that it is the word of God? Who will believe you?

We have understood what Jesus meant by that all were robbers, he was not referring to Noah, Abraham or Issac or Moses a.s.**