Racism in a Classist America

[catholicray]

We tend to think of racism isolated from the whole of societal structure. Classism is little known or accepted by Americans as fact. A more engaged understanding of history concerning the foundation of America exposes the fact of classism and it’s roots. Europeans brought their class structure and the ideologies associated with it to America. Classism has evolved. We no longer identify with lords, barons, serfs. We’ve traded it for black, white trash, landlord, governor, CEO.

What’s more is that, though little known, America is not a democracy. This is more well known to the right who proudly exclaim America is a republic! While this may have been true at the point of founding America, from an economic point of view, it is probably more accurate to think of America as a corporatocracy at this point.

Classism in America is alive and well with the black community as a whole economically situated as the lowest class. Social mobility is possible from any class so of course some people from the black class can indeed climb into higher levels of our class structure but this is quite limited. At the end of the day racism and classism intersect so much as appear to be one problem rather than multiple issues.

This would tend to be the problem in selling the message of white privilege. It needs to be understood that from an economic perspective 40% of varying races in America own the same tiny piece of pie when it comes to economic production and the means to generate wealth. It’s a hard sell for a white person who economically has the same means generally as the black community to generate wealth for himself, to accept that he has any extra privilege at all.

So I’d like to open the conversation here at this point? What are your thoughts?

 

[JulianN]

It’s a hard sell for a white person who economically has the same means generally as the black community to generate wealth for himself, to accept that he has any extra privilege at all.

How often have you been pulled over by the police for no reason?
When you go shopping, how often are you followed around the store?
How often are you asked to explain what your race thinks of something —to speak for all White people?
Are your children’s teachers predominantly members of your race? Were yours?
When you are having a dispute in a store and ask to speak to the person in charge, how often is that person a member of your race?
When you look at textbooks in your children’s school, are members of your race portrayed in them as positively contributing to the building of the country?
When you think of Blacks being equal to Whites, does that mean they act more White than Black? For example, in their speech?
If you are arrested and tried for a crime, will the jury predominantly comprise members of your race?

These are just a few examples of a privilege most White people take for granted because it is implicit in our society. We tend to think that White is the normative standard to which other races aspire—or should.

 

[gracepoole]

We tend to think of racism isolated from the whole of societal structure.

I’m not sure who “we” is here. But while many here laugh off the notion of intersectionality, the point you’re making is encompassed by that term. So no, I don’t tend to think of racism as isolated.

 

[catholicray]

How often have you been pulled over by the police for no reason?

Because my car is in bad shape I was pulled over because my license plate light was “too dim”

When you go shopping, how often are you followed around the store?

I wouldn’t know but there’s plenty of documentation of plenty of people from different races being followed.

How often are you asked to explain what your race thinks of something —to speak for all White people?

Could you provide a genuine example of this?

Are your children’s teachers predominantly members of your race? Were yours?

I went to school as a “white” person where I was the minority race and “black” children were the majority. My principle and my assistant principle were “black”.

When you are having a dispute in a store and ask to speak to the person in charge, how often is that person a member of your race?

If I speak to a person in charge they may be a member of my race but am I treated the same way as a governor would be treated in the same situation? No not at all.

When you look at textbooks in your children’s school, are members of your race portrayed in them as positively contributing to the building of the country?

My textbooks painted a dreamy picture of America’s foundation just like everyone else without any mention of the contracts of servants and the mistreatment of men of lower class in general. I received the same poor under developed education as anyone else.

When you think of Blacks being equal to Whites, does that mean they act more White than Black? For example, in their speech?

I grew up in the projects and spoke just like black people growing up. They were my equals. I speak differently now because I had to adapt for a classist working environment.

If you are arrested and tried for a crime, will the jury predominantly comprise members of your race?

Maybe but I probably won’t make it to trial opting for a plea bargain even if I’m innocent because I don’t want to face the harsher consequences of trial when only a state appointed defense attorney is economically available to me.

 

[catholicray]

The “we” refers to a general “we” which in my experience, in the first place only acknowledges racism as a hatred or prejudice against someone simply because of the color of their skin. If you don’t fit in the we then it doesn’t refer to you obviously.

 

[JulianN]

I went to school as a “white” person where I was the minority race and “black” children were the majority. My principle and my assistant principle were “black”.

What are the quotation marks about? Were the majority of your teachers Black?

If I speak to a person in charge they may be a member of my race but am I treated the same way as a governor would be treated in the same situation? No not at all.

I have no idea how the governor came into this. But if you really believe a Black customer is treated the same as a White one, check in with your Black classmates.

My textbooks painted a dreamy picture of America’s foundation just like everyone else without any mention of the contracts of servants and the mistreatment of men of lower class in general.

The “mistreatment” of men of lower class is not the same thing as slavery.

I grew up in the projects and spoke just like black people growing up. They were my equals. I speak differently now because I had to adapt for a classist working environment.

It’s not just classist —it presumes the White pattern of speech is higher class, or superior.

Maybe but I probably won’t make it to trial opting for a plea bargain even if I’m innocent because I don’t want to face the harsher consequences of trial when only a state appointed defense attorney is economically available to me.

But the point is that, if you went to trial as a White man, you’d be more likely to be acquitted.

Classism is real, but it does not negate very real White privilege.

 

[catholicray]

The “mistreatment” of men of lower class is not the same thing as slavery.

I’m not saying it was. What I do know is white lower class people were treated as production equipment. Given unfair contracts. Considered from a breeding perspective. Their poverty put that at high risk for disease and masses of white people died time and again due to poverty. That was before the Atlantic slave trade which fertilized the development of slavery of black people.

It’s not just classist —it presumes the White pattern of speech is higher class, or superior.

No it doesn’t. Are you unable to acknowledge how many white rednecks do not speak like a professional working environment thinks that they ought to? The correct “white” pattern of speech is not based on all white culture but it’s enforced on all people regardless of skin color.

But the point is that, if you went to trial as a White man, you’d be more likely to be acquitted.

That’s an awful big if for a ton of “white” people who never make it to trial do to class privilege. You understand that at certain class levels a “white” person will never make it to trial because it’s a suicidal act of his liberty.

This is my point. When you only consider this issue by the context of racism you are missing the fullness of the picture of oppression in America. You’re not going to convince a “white” person who has these experiences that he has so much more privilege than anyone else.

 

[catholicray]

What are the quotation marks about? Were the majority of your teachers Black?

The quotation marks are for the purpose of identifying a social construct as no such race actually exists. There is only one human race.

 

[JulianN]

No it doesn’t. Are you unable to acknowledge how many white rednecks do not speak like a professional working environment thinks that they ought to?

And you get that this “professional” speech is White, right?

That’s an awful big if for a ton of “white” people who never make it to trial do to class privilege. You understand that at certain class levels a “white” person will never make it to trial because it’s a suicidal act of his liberty.

And so much more of an “if” for a Black person.

This is my point. When you only consider this issue by the context of racism you are missing the fullness of the picture of oppression in America. You’re not going to convince a “white” person who has these experiences that he has so much more privilege than anyone else.

And this is the point—White people tend to see their individual negative experiences as somehow negating the systemic and real racism that people of color experience as a group. It doesn’t mean being White makes it easy, or that all Whites are rich. But, for example, in 2016, median Black wealth was $17,100, while that of White households was $170,180. Mortgage debt is higher for Blacks, often due to higher mortgage rates.

You yourself may not feel privileged, but you have certain implicit advantages that accrue to you simply due to your skin color. Until we can acknowledge that, we’re not going to make much progress fixing it.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Racism would still exist in classless societies. If you think otherwise, I’ve got a history lesson for you. Know what the biggest, most common form of racism is? The belief that if someone disagrees with you, they’re a racist.

 

[catholicray]

And you get that this “professional” speech is White, right?

What makes that form of speech “white”? Why do you attribute whiteness to corporate speech?

 

[JulianN]

When’s the last corporate executive you heard speaking Gullah? Or even what most people would call Black street talk —what you said you spoke when you were young but had to change when in the workplace?

 

[catholicray]

Can you provide for us a pure classless society that practiced racism historically?

 

[catholicray]

But it’s inaccurate to label it “white” speech because there are masses of white people who also have to develop their “redneck” speech into that professional speech if that want to be taken seriously and grow within a working environment. It’s not “white” speech it’s corporate speech.

 

[catholicray]

But it’s inaccurate to label it “white” speech because there are masses of white people who also have to develop their “redneck” speech into that professional speech if that want to be taken seriously and grow within a working environment. It’s not “white” speech it’s corporate speech.

Furthermore the reason it is identified as “white” speech is because the white population is larger and so your experience will suggest to you that there are so many white people that speak that way it simply must be the way all white people speak. That’s stereotyping. When in fact there are probably more white children that have to adapt to corporate speech then there are white children that simply always talked that way.

 

[Pattylt]

I listened to a discussion of a black man explaining the differences in how he was treated by police. Besides the fact that he has been pulled over at an average of once a month, he stated that every single time, he was made to get out of his car and place his hands on the hood while the police ran his checks on the computer…every single time. I’ve been pulled over once in my life, my husband twice. We never had to get out of the car and place our hands on the hood. I’ve asked others if they were pulled over and treated this way. None of the whites were, all of the blacks were.

This, to me, was just a straight forward example of a difference in treatment and level of respect shown by police to whites vs. blacks. The blacks even joke that it’s a risk to drive while black.

These are the things that we need to look at and fix. It’s racial profiling, plain and simple and it needs to end.

 

[VonDerTann]

America is class-divided (as opposed to race-divided)?

Nope. Wrong. Certainly less so than other world powers, and a LOT less than ever before.

For hundreds of years, if you were English you could never join the aristocracy except by the merest of luck; and you went nowhere if you did not belong to the Church of England. US? Different story.

The US used to more classist 100 years ago. Now, there’s a lot less of an informal aristocracy than ever before.

I’d add that the US has had a black president (unlike most major
European nations); a catholic president in recent memory (and Joe Biden, who certainly claims to be catholic, may be the next one). There’s really no geographical or enthic background for any sort of upper class in the USA; no inability to really crack the upper echelons of society as there were 100+ years ago, etc., so, no, IMHO America is pretty close to class-less. There’s still a correlation between class and money but IMHO that correlation exists all over the world.

 

[catholicray]

I listened to a discussion of a black man explaining the differences in how he was treated by police. Besides the fact that he has been pulled over at an average of once a month, he stated that every single time, he was made to get out of his car and place his hands on the hood while the police ran his checks on the computer…every single time. I’ve been pulled over once in my life, my husband twice. We never had to get out of the car and place our hands on the hood. I’ve asked others if they were pulled over and treated this way. None of the whites were, all of the blacks were.

This, to me, was just a straight forward example of a difference in treatment and level of respect shown by police to whites vs. blacks. The blacks even joke that it’s a risk to drive while black.

These are the things that we need to look at and fix. It’s racial profiling, plain and simple and it needs to end.

I’d like to be clear. This post isn’t a rejection of systemic racism. I think where systemic racism truly rears it’s ugly head is in the mistreatment by law enforcement.

I’d like to also be clear that within a class model the black community is the lowest class in America from an economic perspective and the ability of the community as a whole to generate wealth.

So I am not rejecting racism. I’m just sorting out certain misconceptions that are classified as racism that are better explained from a perspective of classism. It’s not a denial of racism as an issue it’s an acknowledgement of classism as a factor in the discussion of racism.

 

[catholicray]

America is class-divided (as opposed to race-divided)?

Nope. Wrong. Certainly less so than other world powers, and a LOT less than ever before.

For hundreds of years, if you were English you could never join the aristocracy except by the merest of luck; and you went nowhere if you did not belong to the Church of England. US? Different story.

The US used to more classist 100 years ago. Now, there’s a lot less of an informal aristocracy than ever before.

I’d add that the US has had a black president (unlike most major
European nations); a catholic president in recent memory (and Joe Biden, who certainly claims to be catholic, may be the next one). There’s really no geographical or enthic background for any sort of upper class in the USA; no inability to really crack the upper echelons of society as there were 100+ years ago, etc., so, no, IMHO America is pretty close to class-less. There’s still a correlation between class and money but IMHO that correlation exists all over the world.

This is a major misunderstanding of classism in America. If you were to examine America from an economic perspective (take the emotion out of it) patterns emerge. For example it’s highly predictable, based on what class you were born to as to what class you will find yourself in (economically) as an adult. If you were born into a family for example where your parents are upper class (CEO) it’s highly predictable that you will also be in the upper class as an adult.

Economically there is very little demonstration of social mobility in America. Again we don’t identify kings and queens, lords, knights, serfs, etc…

However if you have more wealth you will receive more justice from our court system for infractions and because there is little social mobility basically those who are already wealthy will continue that pattern in their lineage.

So I’m not talking about class system from the perspective of titles I’m talking about it from a perspective of economy.

 

[Pattylt]

So I am not rejecting racism. I’m just sorting out certain misconceptions that are classified as racism that are better explained from a perspective of classism. It’s not a denial of racism as an issue it’s an acknowledgement of classism as a factor in the discussion of racism.

Very good point and I agree. For a supposedly classless society, we show an awful lot of classism occurring. We need to be addressing all of it and I definitely agree that problems should be looked at both ways and together.

Classism effects lower class whites as well but can be overcome more easily than lower class blacks. It’s never easy but blacks are having to tackle two fronts, not just one. When we can look at a rich black man and not consider him an exception, then we’re getting somewhere.