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miguel
Guest
Kids need to see the faith lived at home. If they don’t, it is highly unlikely that they will live it themselves, even with a Catholic education.
Rainbow Sash Movement is happy with our bishop. Calls on the Diocese of Orange
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miguel
Guest
Lisa N:
Alan has created a straw man. I certainly am not arguing for denying Catholic school to kids whose parents are supportive of what the Catholic school is about, regardless of their state of sin. But what we don’t need are rabble rousers (gay or otherwise). Let them push their agenda somewhere else. Look at the division this created at Saint John the Baptist, Costa Mesa. He doesn’t address that point at all in any of his posts.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Oh, I guess you’re right. There really isn’t any use wasting our resources on these kids who are doomed anyway.
Let’s just forget about them. We probably didn’t want them in our Catholic family anyway.
I guess you folks got the popular vote. Kick the kids out. Me and Jesus will weep for them.
Alan
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contemplative
Guest
Over and over again Alan you just aren’t getting it. No one is kicking any kids out. What you fail to see is that Catholic parents do not want their children exposed to homosexual couples.
Parents sending children to Catholic schools don’t want their children exposed to homosexual couples anymore than they want their children exposed to known pedaphiles or prostitutes or any other dangerous people who might adversely influence or harm their children.
Homosexual parents are welcome to send their children to church and Catholic schools. No one ever said they weren’t. Did anyone say that on this thread ??? huh ?
It is my hope that Catholic schools soon require parents sending their children to Catholic schools to sign a letter of affirmation stating that they uphold the teachings of the Church.
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miguel
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Check my other post to Lisa N. I shouldn’t have bothered making this point. It just allowed you to continue your straw man arguement. “Let the dead bury their dead.” Didn’t Jesus say that too? The question is how much insanity do you have to put up with before it becomes destructive to what the school is trying to do? You haven’t addressed that.
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m134e5
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It is one thing to have a mature conversation- while including necessary details- about an issue of sexuality; this was different. Your comment was just to make fun of people- it’s that simple. Homosexual men don’t have sex with every man they can find- they have men they like and men they don’t like, and the ones they do, they have enough common sense not to hit on them- there are those who don’t care if their advances are offensive- just respond to them in an appropriate way and move on with your life. Before sexual harrasment lawsuits became more common, heterosexual men would do the same to women like some homosexual men have done to men.I’m sorry that you were offended.
I’m not sorry I wrote it. :nope:
I’m not sorry because I soooo love it when someone calls me “unChristian.” It gives an opportunity to show them a little bit of the Truth in a way I could never do had I not been “attacked” in this way.
I think it would do you well to lighten up a little bit. Among a community of total strangers, we constantly delve into incredibly specific issues about the sex act, whether the man is in the right place when he ejaculates, and the specifics of his lustful feelings and whether that makes him hellbound.
Yes, it was crude. The whole subject is crude. The world is messy. There are people here using the sins of parents to keep children away from a Catholic education, and you’re worried about a little comment that, by the way, is in the favor of those I’m arguing against. :whacky:
Are there any gays watching this thread? What offends you more, my little attempt at humor at your expense, or the fact that these loving Catholics would keep your children out of “their” school because they don’t want their own children to associate with yours? (I find that 100 times more sick and repulsive – not to mention unchristian – than any flippant remark I might make, but of course that’s my personal opinion.)
I guess kicking kids out of school because of their parents’ sins is Christian, while cracking a joke about the parents is unchristian. Wow. You saw it right here, folks. Symbolism over substance – the hallmark of a liberal. :banghead:
Alan
I did not call you unchristian- I only said that particular comment was. How is making fun of a group of people Christian?
Just for the record, I strongly believe the children in households of practicing gay couples should be allowed into Catholic schools. If they’re safer, the sins of the parents/guardians are NEVER a good reason to jeopardize the safety of the child. Also, the adopted children of gay couples will almost definitely learn that homosexual behavior is ok- from the couple they see most. I almost guarantee they will not learn any different in the public schools. Catholic schools can teach what they want- they can say lust and premarital sex and homosexual acts are wrong. Those kids have a better chance at learning the Faith, and maybe even being a witness of the Faith to the gay couple they live with. If the “parents” don’t like that, they can decide to take the kids somewhere else on their own.
Homosexual couples should not flaunt their sinful lifestyle in a Catholic school- or anywhere else for that matter. Those who do should be responded to with charity. The school system should stand their ground on what they teach, the couple should never be allowed to chaparone any events, or have an active role in the school if they themselves refuse to at least appear to be living a proper lifestyle (or anyone else for that matter- known prostitutes should be responded to in the same way).
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contemplative
Guest
Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him. Matthew 2:13
Who are the Herods today that would descend among our children and seek to destroy them? Did Herod have a child of his own? Did he seek to destroy his own child or only the Christ Child and the Holy Innocence? Do active homosexual parents seek to destroy their own children or only the Holy Innocence of other children? Do we flee from evil Herods of today or do we lie and await the slaughter of our own Holy Innocent?
And the child grew and waxed strong, full of wisdom: and the grace of God was in him. Luke 2:40
In His Mother’s and Father’s home He grew strong.
And when he was twelve years old, they going up into Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast, Luke 2:42
He was obedient according to custom and he went with His Mother and Father.
And having fulfilled the days, when they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem. And his parents knew it not. And thinking that he was in the company, they came a day’s journey and sought him among their kinsfolks and acquaintance. Luke 2:43-44
Mary and Joseph believed Jesus was with kinsfolks and acquaintance. Who are kinsfolk and acquaintances of our children? What reason did Mary and Joseph have to believe Jesus was with kinsfolk and acquaintance? Is there a certain familiarity, safety and comfort in kinsfolk and acquintance?
And not finding him, they returned into Jerusalem, seeking him. Luke 2:45
Mary and Joseph sought Jesus. I can imagine the concern and worry. They sought until they found Him.
And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them and asking them questions. Luke 2:46
Jesus was not with the kinsfolk and acquaintances. Jesus was already about His Father’s business….and at such an early age.
Later Jesus would say“My mother and my brethren are they who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:21
Jesus’ kinsfolk are those who hear the word of God and do it.
Our kinsfolk and those of our children should be those who hear the Word of God and do it.
Who are the Herods today that would descend among our children and seek to destroy them? Did Herod have a child of his own? Did he seek to destroy his own child or only the Christ Child and the Holy Innocence? Do active homosexual parents seek to destroy their own children or only the Holy Innocence of other children? Do we flee from evil Herods of today or do we lie and await the slaughter of our own Holy Innocent?
And the child grew and waxed strong, full of wisdom: and the grace of God was in him. Luke 2:40
In His Mother’s and Father’s home He grew strong.
And when he was twelve years old, they going up into Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast, Luke 2:42
He was obedient according to custom and he went with His Mother and Father.
And having fulfilled the days, when they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem. And his parents knew it not. And thinking that he was in the company, they came a day’s journey and sought him among their kinsfolks and acquaintance. Luke 2:43-44
Mary and Joseph believed Jesus was with kinsfolks and acquaintance. Who are kinsfolk and acquaintances of our children? What reason did Mary and Joseph have to believe Jesus was with kinsfolk and acquaintance? Is there a certain familiarity, safety and comfort in kinsfolk and acquintance?
And not finding him, they returned into Jerusalem, seeking him. Luke 2:45
Mary and Joseph sought Jesus. I can imagine the concern and worry. They sought until they found Him.
And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them and asking them questions. Luke 2:46
Jesus was not with the kinsfolk and acquaintances. Jesus was already about His Father’s business….and at such an early age.
Later Jesus would say“My mother and my brethren are they who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:21
Jesus’ kinsfolk are those who hear the word of God and do it.
Our kinsfolk and those of our children should be those who hear the Word of God and do it.
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contemplative
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AlanFromWichita
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GloriaPatri4 said:
Thank you. It is nice to come across words of sanity on this topic. :dancing:
I don’t know of any either, but from my position of Home and School chair for eight years, having formal training in an excellent program of stewardship, serving as VP of parish council, and other positions, I’ve talked to a whole lot of people on all sides of this issue. After watching sometimes helplessly as the group dynamics played out with every point of view imaginable involved, I have come to realize that kicking a kid out of Catholic school, when the kid and the parents want to go, is a form of excommunication in that we are excluding them from our community. A stronger metaphor that I believe is equally apt, is it’s a form of spiritual contraception not to let the children in because their parents are not worthy, or abortion in the case they are already in and they are kicked out. Either way, we are saying that the children are not going to have a good spiritual life with those parents so we don’t want them in our part of civilization.
One thing I really like about the way you worded this, is that you have not combined two separate issues into one.
Pro-lifers have an excellent argument that I’d like to apply, and one that from where I sit it looks like you have beautifully navigated without falling into error. That is, the parent and the child are two separate souls, so there are really two issues.
First, you made a bold statement that you would “never want to kick a child out of a Catholic school.”
Then you went on to ask what do we do about problematic parents. (To protect you from being assaulted because I agreed with you and aren’t toeing the prevailing line, I’ll offer you this armor: you may have implied “if not kick the kids out then what,” but you did not write that even if you did think it – you can say you wrote it that way just to appease me, or that you really meant it that way, whichever you need.)
Thank you for seeing this as two separate issues. :clapping:
What is best for the parents and/or Church certainly may not be the best for the child. Maybe it does good for parents to put them on the spot. Certainly I would not make special accomodations, such as changing the database to accept “dad” and “dad” instead of “mom” and “dad.” I guess that means one of them has to decide which is to play “mom.”
But, again, I digress.Anyone who cannot see this as two separate issues, would throw the baby out with the bathwater. If everybody looked at this as you did, then maybe we could have a discussion about how to reach parents – perhaps even through their kids, and quit talking about using the kids as levers or writing them off because they don’t have an ideal situation at home.
Just in case someone thinks I have a horse in this race, two years ago we pulled three of our children out of Catholic grade school, and did home schooling using the Elizabeth Ann Seton course which was really very good. Frankly, that’s the first time I’d ever seen a Baltimore Catechism. We put them back in school last year for several reasons, but one of the strongest reasons is that the school faculty and staff begged us to bring our kids back (we still had contact with them because we still had an eighth grader there). They are cheerful, obedient, high achieving, (especially in religion bowl competition which makes us look better than other schools in the diocese) and they minister to those kids who otherwise get shunned. One of them disclosed under promise of confidentiality that she had caught an eighth grade student (one she didn’t particularly hang around with) having attempting suicide. I was not privvy to her actual name. Since I used to volunteer as a suicide intervention counselor, I trained her on what to say and what not to say, and the girl straightened up despite her lousy home life. If she had not been in school and had the same lousy home life, my daughter would not have had a chance to try to save her life.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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That’s a beautiful photo! Did you take it?
Alan
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contemplative
Guest
Lord Jesus Christ, who,being made subject to Mary and Joseph,didst consecrate domestic life by Thine ineffable virtues;grant that we,with the assistance of both,may be taught by the example of Thy holy Familyand may attain to its everlasting fellowship.Who livest and reignest, world without end.Amen.
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AlanFromWichita
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Lisa N:
Whether they have the children in Catholic school or not, the teachings are the same unless the pope says otherwise, so I’m not really too worried that the gays will make serious inroads into Catholic teachings. Truth isn’t up for a vote, so they can try to convince other fools of their beliefs but the Church is not in jeopardy because she is protected. If they do make inroads this way, then the pope needs to smack around those teachers a little bit if the bishops and/or priests won’t.
Alan
Interesting viewpoint. You may be right in some cases – even most. Here they are also using their children as pawns.
Whether they have the children in Catholic school or not, the teachings are the same unless the pope says otherwise, so I’m not really too worried that the gays will make serious inroads into Catholic teachings. Truth isn’t up for a vote, so they can try to convince other fools of their beliefs but the Church is not in jeopardy because she is protected. If they do make inroads this way, then the pope needs to smack around those teachers a little bit if the bishops and/or priests won’t.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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Sad, but true.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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Right, nor did I think you were. I thought you were arguing for denying Catholic school to kids whose parents are not necessarily supportive of what the Catholic school is about.
Frankly, that’s because I didn’t actually read it until just now.
I have now read it, and I don’t see anything wrong with what the gays are saying, other than a few subjective comments such as “anti Gay agenda” that really are in the eye of the beholder. Many Catholics wouldn’t see this as a problem, though, because they would be proud to be thought of as “anti Gay” by a gay rights movement.
I did notice they capitalized the word Gay, though. I think that’s a bit much, and is inflammatory even if subtle. I’ll give them one demerit for that. :tsktsk:
Also I got a kick out of their statement, "This is a slippery slop, and I am confident the Fr. Martin Benzoni understands this, as does Bishop Brown. "
A slippery slop?
That makes me wonder. Innocent typo, Freudian slip, or perhaps intentional subliminal wording? If the latter it sounds like something I would do.
Maybe I need to joing the paranoid’s alliance.
Alan
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contemplative
Guest
Loving the family means being able to appreciate its values and capabilities, fostering them always. Loving the family means identifying the dangers and the evils that menace it, in order to overcome them. Loving the family means endeavoring to create for it an environment favorable for its development.
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION ***FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO ***OFPOPE JOHN PAUL II
Homosexual parents sending children to Catholic schools is a danger and evil that will menace the favorable environment necessary for developement of the family modeled by Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
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m134e5
Guest
I suppose I should have realized that it is ok to gay bash on this forum- after all, it’s so disgusting for heterosexual men, how can a person who struggles with homosexuality not be created to be damned? John Hagee says so- he even said the antichrist would, in his words, “probably be a homosexual”- I’m glad to see ‘orthodox Catholics’ are finally listening to Calvinist theology. Fred Phelps- now there’s a modern day prophet- boy he’s really on top of things too- we all should learn by his example.
I wonder how many people here would have a fit if a priest had a heart attack while celebrating Mass- because “it’s not in the rubrics”. (that’s not sarcasm- I wouldn’t be surprised at all if some people here responded that way, by the pharisaical attitudes I have seen).
People who are so insecure about something such as this often have something to hide.
I wonder how many people here would have a fit if a priest had a heart attack while celebrating Mass- because “it’s not in the rubrics”. (that’s not sarcasm- I wouldn’t be surprised at all if some people here responded that way, by the pharisaical attitudes I have seen).
People who are so insecure about something such as this often have something to hide.
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m134e5
Guest
There are lots of people who were raised Catholic only in name, or were raised atheist, or were raised in another religion. The ones who start practicing Catholicism- and convert if they weren’t raised Catholic are the ones we see coming into the Church at Easter (and other times) and going back to confession after being away for many years and coming back with a zeal to rival that of many faithful cradle Catholics. I would say most of the people who do that had at least some exposure to Catholicism when they were younger.
If Catholic schools will teach the faith- to all who come in their doors- it won’t matter how the child’s family situation is.
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contemplative
Guest
Childishness or the Spirit of Childhood?
Jesus says: ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.’ [Luke 18:16]
If that is how things are, growing up means loss. Why should I desire to grow up if adulthood deprives me of the right to the kingdom? Can you explain why God should have given us physical development which favours vice, not virtue? And for what reason did the Lord not turn to children but to grown men when he was choosing his Apostles? In brief, why does he say that children are fit to enter the kingdom?
Someone will suggest this reason: because children do not bear malice, they do not know how to swindle their neighbour, they are not vindictive, they do not desire wealth, they do not covet honours.
Maybe: but virtue is not founded on ignorance. Still less is self-control praiseworthy if it is only due to impotence.
Therefore the Lord is not offering us childhood as our example but the goodness that imitates the simplicity of childhood. He does not put before us inability to sin - which would not be virtue - but the will not to sin, a steady will not to sin, for which we ought to take childhood as our model.
For the rest, the Lord himself says: ‘Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.’ [Matt. 18:3]
Ambrose
*On the Gospel of St Luke, *8
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m134e5
Guest
How will pushing them away evangelize them?
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Why in the world would we want to evangelize someone who is predestined for eternal hellfire?
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