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allhers
Guest
I saw that too, great point!
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I saw that too, great point!
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twb1621
Guest
Do you read the Bible Ralphy? Do you believe in all the Gospel?
That the Bible can not contradict itself and all Word of Jesus joins in His teachings?
Do you know the origin, the processes and the historic interpretations (not just translations) of the Bible has they have been handed down WITH the word of God?
Do you believe you know all there is to know about the word of God and teachings of Jesus our Savior or do you remain hungry to learn throughout your mortal life?
Or are you one who sees yourself as the Pharisee next to the tax collector?
What does the following Gospel verses mean to you?
Matthew CH25
31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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luda_111
Guest
All believers are to form a royal priesthood and all are meant to have the holy spirit. Not only a select few. Catholics have an idea of an apostolic succession where only a few are called to be apostles of christ but all of us (if are hearts are right before God) are meant to be.The priest is an instrument being used by God. The priest is not hearing something from God and then conveying the information, like a middle-man. Instead, he’s like a microphone that God is using. The voice coming out of his mouth is God speaking to me - God is using the priest as His instrument, at that particular moment in time.
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ralphy
Guest
The apostles are not with us now and they did not pass this power on because the “scripture didn’t say that”, I only follow what the scripture say’s, not what it dosen’t say. Ralph
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twb1621
Guest
To offer some enlightenment in an effort to avoid misconceptions, you are right to a degree. However, Apostolic succession only pertains to the handing down of the teachings of Sacred Tradition within the Church but in no way restricts our participation as Disciples of Christ or responsibility to evangelize according to His teachings. We reserve that term (Apostles) specifically in referring to the original twelve who Christ Chose to begin teaching His Gospel…
Apostle: A messenger and authorized representative of the sender. Broadly used in Scripture, it refers to many followers of Jesus who spread his message. More precisely, however, it applies to the original twelve men chosen by Jesus to be his immediate aides. They are referred to as disciples during the period in which he was instructing them, but following his ascension they are always called Apostles. After Pentecost they spoke and acted with confidence and assurance in teaching others what he had taught them and in assuming leadership roles in the early church. They were ordained priests by Christ at the Last Supper and were commissioned by him to preach the Gospel to all mankind
There is one Priest, that being Jesus Christ. Those we as Catholics refer to as priests within the body of the Church are priests in the ministry sense as a part of the Body of Jesus just as we all are a part of that body. Each of us has his or her own gifts of the Holy Spirit as you say and we are to share those in our human lives.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
All believers are called to form a royal priesthood with Christ and His Catholic Church in communion with Christ’s Vicar and the apostolic succession. A house divided can not stand and that is clearly evident in the chaos and disgraced heretical protest against divine authority and apostolic teaching we call "Protestantism. Protestantism is nothing but a mere secular philosophy that lets anyone with any new bible opinion go start a new denomination or go hang a divinity diploma on his wall and self appoint oneself his own authority. God has never permitted this in all of history. Some of these Protestant sects don’t even baptise and can’t even rightly call themselves Christian in the least sense of the word. It’s like a pagan calling himself a Jew, changing his name to “Jude” and putting on a Star of David t-shirt. It just looks and sounds silly.
Christ prayed for unity - in faith, baptism and Church. ALL of humanity is called to the universal priesthood of the Catholic Church.
You are creating a strawman that is not based on reality in implicating any silly idea that Catholics are trying to promote a few called to be apostles. The Catholic Church’s mission is to bring the entire of humanity into unity of worship. The idea of a lay priesthood is unique to the Catholic Church and empowers each person with a level of priestly and spiritual authority that is unprecedented in all history as evidenced by our many lay saints. What you fail to recognize or appreciate though is that within The Church are the ordained apostolic priests who serve and lead the greater body of Christ, the entire priesthood, in a special way with real authority that is God breathed and God given. The Church is open to anyone who is called to be an apostolic priest or deacon within the Catholic Church.
James
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ralphy
Guest
Those verses are talking about sheep and goats obviously and also works. The sheep are saved people, ( refered to always that way in the bible), the goats are unsaved people (also refered to that way in the bible). The good works refered to are those from the saved group, good works naturally follow salvation. The other group showing no good works are obviously not saved and therefor cannot produce good works unto God. This judgement is done on earth when Christ comes back with His angels, it is a national judgement. You are trying very hard to discredit the scriptural verses in Eph 2:8,9. “Works” will not win out. The whole theme of the bible is by “faith”. Ralph
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You are making up things again Ralphy. You only follow what you want to hear. Here below is direct scriptural proof that the apostolic succession of authority was meant to be passed on. The only reason you don’t know this is because you have no apostolic teaching and have no historical connection to The Church. If you were a formal member of our family you would know this.
Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.
Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”
Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 - shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
More here: scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#apostolic-II
Do you read anything we give you Ralph?
James
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ralphy
Guest
Most of everything you say is based on Roman catholic teaching, not on scripture. This to me is another gospel. If it is not in scripture , then it must be “another gospel”, right. Ralph
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Ralph, Ralph, Ralph. You need to listen to what you actually say and write. You are like a Tower of Babel here and contradict yourself repeatedly. On one hand you say the sheep are always the ones who are saved and the one’s with works. Then irrationally conclude that Works do not win out - even though only the sheep with works are “saved” and its all faith.
I am now convinced you are not capable of rational dialog. You would be best off talking to a psychologist at this point or getting some counseling.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Let me apply your own standards of “reasoning” to you Ralph.
Most of everything you say is based on heretical Protestant teaching, not on scripture. This to me is another gospel. If it is not in scripture , then it must be “another gospel”, right.
You do not have a rational mind Ralph and are incapable of reason. I can prove what I say but you can offer nothing other than endless circular opinions and tautologies that amount to nothing more than “Ralph says such and such”.
James
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ralphy
Guest
Yes I read what I recieve. You use a lot of old testament, we now have a new covenent in Jesus’s Blood. Things have changed, Christ has made a way for us to come directly to Himself. We don’t need rituals and ceremonies and priests, cardinals, popes, or even a building. If we are saved ,we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide and direct us in our walk with Him. He is the foundation, the author and finisher of our life, He is all we need for salvation. I am so pleased I know Him in a personal way, Praise His name. Ralph
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I used a lot of OT? Ralphy, I used 18 NT references and only 7 OT. The OT is given to show that the continuity of the principals are still valid. You are not like the heretical Marcionists who thought that the OT should be removed from all Christian thought and all the OT quotes that Paul and the apostles used in NT scripture should be deleted are you?
That would be like removing all Jews from the apostles and overlooking that Jesus was a Jew.You do understand that Jesus came to fulfill OT prophesy and the 10 commandments and all the OT teachings are still valid don’t you? Christ came to fulfill he did not come to destroy the OT. Yes, we have a NT covenant now but there is continuity and progression of the Old to the New. The OLD foretells the New and the NEW fulfills the OT - we keep both.
The other things you say are also just “Ralph’s Religion” and are not backable by scripture without contradicting some of it elsewhere. Trust me Ralphy you can’t out argue a Catholic since the NT is Catholic. Catholics wrote the entire NT, declared it inspired and assembled the bible. We have been teaching the Catholic Bible for 2,000 years and know it better than anyone on earth - even better than preacher Ralphy. Are you 2,000 years old Ralphy? Did you ever personally know Jesus or any of the apostles? Catholics personally knew the apostles and our forefathers have passed down to us our family traditions.
James
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twb1621
Guest
We have a side of that Covenant with Christ we are responsible for and assuming through the belief in OSAS that we have a free ride is certain death not to mention insulting to the death and salvation Christ OFFER’S us.
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
Continued
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twb1621
Guest
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you. 1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
There’s more… if you need them…
by the way, that was a very selective and limited response to post 598 for someone so condemning of the Catholic Faith…
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you. 1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
There’s more… if you need them…
by the way, that was a very selective and limited response to post 598 for someone so condemning of the Catholic Faith…
S
SteveGC
Guest
first of all, the OT is not abolished, but fulfilled. This means that nothing goes away, it just gets redefined within the essence of Christ.
second of all, 18 of the 25 verses James cited for you are NT. Eighteen, ralph! And all you have to say to address his post is, “you use alot of OT” ???
How about giving us your interpretation of those 18 NT scriptural references, ralph. Please?
I know why you didn’t want to address them, though. It is very difficult for a Bible-only to explain away laying on of hands (ordination) that clearly occurs multiple times in the NT. I’ve not ever heard one fundamentalist, scholar or not, give a reasonable explanation for those very Catholic events in scripture.
James takes alot of time to help you, ralph. Give him some return on investment, please, and fully address his posts. If you disagree, fine. But atleast give us an alternative, reasonable explanation for what is offered.
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ralphy
Guest
James,I quote scripture to you , the word of God. You can put any handle on it you like , but it IS the word of God. You quote scripture back to me and you use Roman catholic traditional teaching to fill in the cracks, which exceeds scripture, according to the Roman catholic church. Ralph
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ralphy
Guest
Can you show me where this traditional “laying on of hands”,etc, was carried out after the apostles left the earth,(other than the Roman catholic church teaching). Show me something other that heresay. I have seen “laying on of hands” in our church to ordain a minister, but it did not come all the way up the lines from the apostles, and there is no power received from this ordination except to preach the word of God as directed by the Holy Spirit. Ralph
first of all, the OT is not abolished, but fulfilled. This means that nothing goes away, it just gets redefined within the essence of Christ.
second of all, 18 of the 25 verses James cited for you are NT. Eighteen, ralph! And all you have to say to address his post is, “you use alot of OT” ???
How about giving us your interpretation of those 18 NT scriptural references, ralph. Please?
I know why you didn’t want to address them, though. It is very difficult for a Bible-only to explain away laying on of hands (ordination) that clearly occurs multiple times in the NT. I’ve not ever heard one protestant, scholar or not, give a reasonable explanation for those very Catholic events in scripture.
James takes alot of time to help you, ralph. Give him some return on investment, please, and fully address his posts. If you disagree, fine. But atleast give us an alternative, reasonable explanation for what is offered.
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ralphy
Guest
Eph 4:30. You will see that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. Ralph
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cazayoux
Guest
Your comment shows a lack of appreciation for the Old Testament. I give you another verse that shows your theology is lacking scriptural focus.
2 Tim 3:16
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
michel
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