R
ralphy
Guest
I agree with that Scripture. Now maybe you can see that we do not need traditional teaching or anything else that goes along with it from The Roman catholic church, scripture is all we need. Ralph
- Status
J
judechild
Guest
That’s nice, so can anyone else; and we have.
What would you say if I thought the Didache was inspired? What scripture would you quote to show me that the Bible has only 66 books, as opposed to 14, or 52 1/2, or 73, or 1,090? I’ll make this one noticable: how do you know which books are in the Bible? Martin Luther deleted 4 NT books too, though they were put back in: James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. If you trust Luther’s view on the OT, and that 7 books could be arbitrarily deleted, why not the new as well? Sorry for so many question marks.
C
cazayoux
Guest
Eph 4:22-32
[22] **Put off **your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts,
[23] and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
[24] and **put on **the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
[25] Therefore, putting away falsehood, **let every one speak the truth **with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
[26] Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
[27] and **give no opportunity **to the devil.
[28] Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, ***so that ***he may be able to give to those in need.
[29] Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[30] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
[31] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice,
[32] and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Again … context, context, context.
This scripture is telling us what to do with our new nature.
We have to CHOOSE these actions.
YES! Amen! We are sealed in the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption.
This does not mean we have assurance of salvation.
Christ redeemed all men, but all men are not saved.
You tell me … of all the commands given in these verses (that we can choose to do or choose not to do), what happens if we do not do them?
michel
S
SteveGC
Guest
Hey, thanks for reading my post and responding to it with real thought and dialogue, ralph. Seriously, I appreciate it.
Ok.
Yes, you’re right. The ‘laying on of hands’ that occurs in ecclesial communities like yours will never be traceable back along an apostolic lineage. That only occurs within the Catholic Church.
Secondly, if laying on of hands is required just to “preach”, as you say, why are you here preaching? Did someone ordain you?
Third, if there is biblical proof of ordination, which James gave you, why do you think it must’ve gone away with the death of the last apostle? If Timothy and others received the ordination, do you think that their ordination expired after the apostles died, while they themselves (Timothy et al) continued to live on earth? Surely not. So, while others here can probably give you early Church evidence of continuing ordination, I will just say…the very fact that you have ordination of younger disciples in Scripture, attests to the fact that this ordination was meant to be successive. In fact, I think it’s in Timothy where Paul identifies 3 generations of laying on of hands…Paul himself, Timothy, and those Timothy would ordain. I’ll get back to you on the biblical reference to that…unless someone beats me to it…
God Bless
C
cazayoux
Guest
ahh … again you are reading something that isn’t there.
This verse does NOT say scripture is sufficient, only that it is profitable.
… let’s take it a step further and look at the writer and audience of this text.
This is Paul talking to Timothy.
MORE context!!
2 Tim 3:15-17
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Verse 14 is Paul telling Timothy to continue in what he has learned ‘knowing from whom you learned it’. From PAUL, not scripture.
Verse 15 shows us WHAT scripture Paul is talking about … what Timothy was acquainted with since Timothy’s childhood … Paul is talking about the OLD Testament. Your rendering of verse 16 would have you say the OLD Testament alone is sufficient, but this is not the case.
This is the good stuff … Timothy is told to remember what he has learned from Paul as well as what he’s learned from the old testament as being profitable (not sufficient).
Verse 17 bring us back to good works!!! … just as the Catholic Church teaches.
michel
R
ralphy
Guest
I do not know what the word Didache means. I did not know that Martin Luther deleted 4 NT books (and they were put back in). I will do some research on Luther and also why the number of books in the bible. My understanding is that the books that are not in the bible now are “historical books” and don’t follow the general line of the bible. However I do have a Roman catholic bible and I will read those books not contained in my own bible. Ralph
R
ralphy
Guest
Where did the power go that the apostles had, such as healing, raising people from the dead, etc.? Was this not passed on. Ralph
R
ralphy
Guest
When in the old days the King used his ring to seal something, it had authority, it was a very serious thing. I believe that the Holy Spirit is far above any earthly king,He is God the Holy Spirit and His seal tells me that I have assurance of my salvation. Amen. Ralph
S
SteveGC
Guest
Found it
It’s a combination of 1 Tim 5:22, and 2 Tim 2:2
- 1Tim5:22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin. *
This verse lets us know that Timothy himself was to ordain others
*2Tim2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. *
This verse alludes to the 3 generations of succession…Paul himself, Timothy, and those Timothy would later ordain.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Ralphy - the question here is WHO gets to decide what books belong in the bible? You went to a book store and bought a book called “the bible”. But how does Ralphy know that his bible had all the right number of gospels in it and has the right number of pages?
What if all the bible book publishers in the world were suddenly bought out by an Islamic King and he did not like what the bible said so ordered all the publishers to remove a dozen or so books and add in a few new books from the Koran. This version is the new bible and its the only one you or I can buy in the bookstore. Do you just accept the new bible? What do you do? WHO DECIDES RALPH?
Luther REINVENTED CHRISTIANITY in HIS OWN IMAGE and tried to hijack it. He made Christianity the way “Dr. Martin Luther would have it”. Luther served himself - not Jesus. He changed ALL he key principals that the Catholic Church had been teaching for 1500 years and millions of gullible people followed him to their doom. HE ALONE decided to remove 7 OT books from the bible and tried as Steve mentioned to REMOVE 4 or so NT books. But he was advised not to try to get away with that by his friends and publishers since that would be too radical of a step. So rather than tear out more NT books and make himself look too radical he instead very cleverly left them in BUT TAUGHT ALL NEW INTERPRETATIONS TO DECEIVE THE MASSES FROM THE TRUE APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS. This was deliberate deception. I am convinced Luther was incarnate evil and Protestants have bought into his deception hook line and sinker and now are like his new children who are all now teaching each other ever more changing variations on the same original lie.
You have been deceived Ralphy and are caught in Satan’s trap thinking you are saved in your sins and in a dead faith. The demons “just believed” in Christ as Lord but never would obey and serve The Lord - and this is why they are in hell and why so many who give The Lord lip service and teach a deceptive gospel will land there too. WAKE UP.
James
J
judechild
Guest
CentralFLJames;5046777Luther REINVENTED CHRISTIANITY in HIS OWN IMAGE and tried to hijack it. He made Christianity the way “Dr. Martin Luther would have it”. Luther served himself - not Jesus. He changed ALL he key principals that the Catholic Church had been teaching for 1500 years and millions of gullible people followed him to their doom. HE ALONE decided to remove 7 OT books from the bible and tried as Steve mentioned to REMOVE 4 or so NT books. But he was advised not to try to get away with that by his friends and publishers since that would be too radical of a step. So rather than tear out more NT books and make himself look too radical he instead very cleverly left them in BUT TAUGHT ALL NEW INTERPRETATIONS TO DECEIVE THE MASSES FROM THE TRUE APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS. This was deliberate deception. I am convinced Luther was incarnate evil and Protestants have bought into his deception hook line and sinker and now are like his new children who are all now teaching each other ever more changing variations on the same original lie. said:James, I really do appreciate you backing me up, but I think you may have gone just a bit too far in this response.I don’t think Luther was deliberately diabolical. There certainly were abuses going on at the time, and he was correct that the Church needed reform; his error only came when he started to change doctrine. In that way, though, I think he was decieved, not evil. Plus, there were a number of things that Luther kept that were from Ctholic docrine, Marian devotion and the Real Presence being a few of them; later reformers are the ones who took these things out. So he didn’t really change “ALL the key principles”.
C
cazayoux
Guest
I don’t see this is scripture without some if’s and commands.
There is always something you are to DO.
Are you still saved if you do not…
‘put off your old nature’? (Eph 4:22)
‘put on your new nature’? (Eph 4:24)
‘put away falsehood’? (Eph 4:25)
‘speak the truth’? (Eph 4:25)
‘do not sin’? (Eph 4:26)
‘do not give opportunity to the devil’? (Eph 4:27)
‘no longer steal’ (Eph 4:28)
‘do honest labor’? (Eph 4:28)
‘give to those in need’? (Eph 4:28)
‘let no evil come out of your mouth’? (Eph 4:29)
‘do not grieve the Holy Spirit’? (Eph 4:30)
‘let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, slander be put away from you’? (Eph 4:31)
‘be kind to one another’? (Eph 4:32)
‘forgive one another’? (Eph 4:32)
It seems there is only one of these that you think you need to do:
‘do not grieve the Holy Spirit’.
Honestly … do not ignore the rest of the scripture.
Being a one-verse wonder has really kept you from the context of the scripture.
Catholics read ALL of scripture … and so far you have very adeptly shown us that you do not.
You seem to only read particular verses… well … you seem to only cite particular verses.
Context is necessary for UNDERSTANDING.
I’ll repost the scripture again for reference.
Eph 4:22-32
[22] Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts,
[23] and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
[24] and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
[25] Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
[26] Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
[27] and give no opportunity to the devil.
[28] Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need.
[29] Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[30] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
[31] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice,
[32] and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Ralphy … you do seem to have some time on your hands … time enough to start reading scripture front to back.
I will suggest that before you cite one more verse of scripture, you should read the WHOLE chapter that the verse is in.
Cheers, brother.
michel
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I have studied the man. He was an extremely crude, vile, arrogant and a boastful man - all the classic markers of someone under the domination or influence of Lucifer. He clearly was mentally ill and suffered from severe scrupulosity and this may have mitigated some culpability. But I do believe he was spiritually tormented at least in some degree demonically possessed. Anyone who would sit by and let all of Europe slide into civil-religious war over his personal opinions and not regret what he had done is not of the spirit of Christ. Have you ever read the vile and vulgarity in this man’s quotes? He might have spoken of a belief in real presence and reverenced Mary but he bore no fruit whatsoever to merit by that belief. So I doubt it was a convictive soul-felt belief but rather a sentimental artifact he retained only as an ingrained touchstone from his Catholic roots that left him some minimal connectivity to his childhood and his own identity.James, I really do appreciate you backing me up, but I think you may have gone just a bit too far in this response.
As for the abuses in the Church. These were already being addressed in the Lateran Council 6 months BEFORE he posted his 95 thesis - and Luther knew this. Being in the university he was connected to all the “gossip” and privileged insights. It looks to me that given his knowledge that the church was already making changes he was a nothing but an egotistic opportunist. I also believe that he was fairly hysterical at the idea that the Muslims were amassing on the border of Europe to attack and imagined in his fear that it was Armageddon and that God was ready to punish The Church unless he, Dr. Luther" took matters into his own hands to save Christianity. He was an egotistical nut-case. At best I would grant him the doubt of pure mental illness but for the vulgarity and the hubris present in this man’s quotes that are highly suggestive of a possessed soul which has capitulated its faith to despair.
A Few Luther Quotes
- If your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an a[r]ss are the same thing.”
- Please do not give these asses any other answer to their useless braying about that word “sola” than simply “Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the papal doctors.”
- You are not the only man to be tempted ; I also am tempted and have bigger sins piled on my conscience than you and your fathers. I would rather I had been a procurer or highwayman than that I should have offered up Christ in the Mass for so long a time.
- The blind priestlings run to the altar like pigs to the trough " ; this, " the shame of our scarlet woman of Babylon, must be exposed." " I maintain that all public houses of ill-fame, strictly forbidden by God though they be, yea, manslaughter, thieving, murder
and adultery, are not so wicked and pernicious as this abomination of the Popish Mass." - I believe the Franciscans to be possessed of the devil, body and soul,"
- Speaking against religious life: Neither the dens of evil women nor any secret sins are so pernicious as those rules and vows which the devil himself has invented."
- The Word and work of God is quite clear, viz. that women were made to be either wives or prostitutes.
James
S
Shannon9791
Guest
Ralphy tried to turn this one around, just thought I’d point it out. The verse in question says ALL scripture, not ONLY scripture. Where in the Bible does it say ONLY scripture, Ralphy?
T
tmac1956
Guest
On top of all of this, he was a raging anti-Semite and openly wrote about it. Be forewarned - this is an unpleasant read.
humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Indeed - he called for open persecution of the Jews and his writings can be directly linked to inspiring Nazi sentiments and their propaganda. I was not going to bring it up. But what amazes me is why no one has exposed this vile man for the utter blackness of his heart and his vulgar crassness in the history books? I had to dig into the history to find out what Luther was really all about. He really was an ugly man in more ways than just appearances and an utter disgrace to the Christian standards of personal conduct. There was no apparent virtues of faith, love and charity in the man (unless we count the arrogant faith in his own inerrancy and pride) and I personally think he and Judas would have gotten along very well.
James
R
ralphy
Guest
You have ALL the scripture in the bible. Ralph
R
ralphy
Guest
This Luther guy really hit you guys hard. I must find out what he really said. Ralph
S
sodak
Guest
Are you claiming that the Catholic bible is the correct one?
Now you have a decision to make. You have 2 different Bibles. They both cannot be right. How do you know which one is the correct one?
T
twb1621
Guest
Ralphy, you very well do need much more than traditional teaching considering you just “blew off” over 35 scriptural texts in my last two posts alone using one verse that you twisted against the others. That is not considering the questions you failed to answer at all. So by your own selection you refer to the teachings of Jesus false for the most part except for those select verses you choose to accept…. By the way, you are quoting parts of a book that is Catholic in origin, you do realize that?
- Status