Rant

[Pro-Life_Teen]

I really hope this doesn’t get me suspended, but I have to say this and maybe at least some people’ll see it.

I have been on these forums for a while and there is one thing that is annoying me greatly. The way that a few men find that if their wives do something wrong, they can divorce them and leave.

There was one poster, I remember, wanted a divorce because his wife wouldn’t have sex with him. I replied that I thought the idea was stupid. Simply that reason?

I found it, and still do find it, very foolish to divorce the person that you’re married to, simply because of lack of sex. Mary and Joseph never had sex and a few other couples abstain as well, for medical reasons etc.

Anyways, I was called young and naive and soon after the forums were cleaned out and that thread’s gone now.

In a recent thread a man wishes to divorce his wife because she cheated and is now with another man’s child.

I realize this situation is hard and painful, but a divorce? An annulment? Leaving them… just alone?

Why arn’t these men sticking around, wanting to help their wives?

I want to know that my future husband will be willing to help me find the path if I stray from it. I don’t intend to at all, I wouldn’t think of being unfaithful, but we’re all human and we all sin. If not one thing, another.

I know I’m only fifteen. I know I might not get it like some of you older here. But I want to learn and realize this POV I’ve been seeing.

If divorce/annulment is fine because of adultry, what about lying? What about other sins? Gluttony? Sloth?

Should we not try to help our spouse find the path to God? Help them, instead of leaving them?

Thank you for reading this and replying. I trully hope I didn’t insult anyone or anger anyone. And if I did, I apologize now.

 

[rayne89]

I too have noticed this trend and I tend to agree with you. I’m not saying all men by any means but have noticed especially when it comes to adultary suddenly til death to us part is forgotten, it just absolutely makes some guys lose any perspective. I remember a while back one post where the mans wife was unfaithful and the general consensus was change the locks, see a lawyer and don’t let her see the kids!

And I also have noticed when the man is the unfaithful one some men start looking at well was she denying him sex? Was she turning down his requests for sex too much? As if that is an excuse for breaking your marriage vows. But when a women cheats rarely does anyone seek a cause.

I don’t know what the answer is but I agree it is irratating.

I do have to say on the one thread you mentioned there were some women siding for a divorce as well.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Pro-Life_Teen:

I know I’m only fifteen. I know I might not get it like some of you older here. But I want to learn and realize this POV I’ve been seeing.

If divorce/annulment is fine because of adultry, what about lying? What about other sins? Gluttony? Sloth?

Should we not try to help our spouse find the path to God? Help them, instead of leaving them?

Thank you for reading this and replying. I trully hope I didn’t insult anyone or anger anyone. And if I did, I apologize now.

I tend to agree with your post.

But maybe I can help you see a different perspective…

While I agree with your above sentiment about helping our spouses find the right path when they’ve strayed, that spouse has to want to get back on track.

Sometimes when a marriage runs into difficulty (one spouse who cheats, lies, spends irresponsibly etc) the other spouse has to get themselves out of the situation for their own protection and the protection of any minor children.

But this does not mean they need to seek an annulment or divorce. They just need to take time and see if the spouse with the problem actually*** wants*** to repair the damage they caused.

I think marriage is forever. But I am not so naive as to think that everyone else feels the same way. You know what kind of man you want in a future husband, don’t settle for less!

Malia

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

Thanks for replying, Rayne, Malia. When I posted this way of thinking in the other thread, someone told me I was naive to think so.

I suppose they’re wrong… because if you think about it, if sex is the only reason you’re with someone, that’s rather sad. A husband and wife share body and soul, among other things. It’s assumed you care for each other.

Again, thanks for the replies. My last few threads have not shot off as I’d have liked.

 

[Della]

I think you are wise beyond your years. Keep thinking the same way all your life and you can’t possibly go wrong! (From a 57 year old married lady who will have been married 22 years this October.)

 

[mumto5]

I think you are a bit naive and underestimate exactly how this can affect a marriage. Everyone has a different perspective and yours may change, it may not. I have seen firsthand the damage infidelity can do, including to the children in the relationship whether they know about it or not. It’s a terrible thing.

If my husband strayed, I would stay with him but I would never engage in a physical relationship with him. Next time he could bring home HIV, herpes…who knows what. It’s not worth the risk. My children need me healthy for them.

I do think it works both ways though - the man has the same right to leave a straying wife as a wife has to leave her straying husband. They are equal in that.

 

[Allen537]

Pro-Life_Teen:

In a recent thread a man wishes to divorce his wife because she cheated and is now with another man’s child.

I realize this situation is hard and painful, but a divorce? An annulment? Leaving them… just alone?

Why arn’t these men sticking around, wanting to help their wives?

I want to know that my future husband will be willing to help me find the path if I stray from it. I don’t intend to at all, I wouldn’t think of being unfaithful, but we’re all human and we all sin. If not one thing, another.

I know I’m only fifteen. I know I might not get it like some of you older here. But I want to learn and realize this POV I’ve been seeing.

Should we not try to help our spouse find the path to God? Help them, instead of leaving them?

I agree with you, but let me try and give you a man’s perspective on this kind of situation.

For many men, a serious relationship is built on trust. A man must be able to trust his wife completely, and the same for the woman. For many, trust is the foundation on which a solid marriage is built. I think it would be very difficult to be married to a person you didn’t trust. I can imagian the agony a person must go through not knowing where their spouse is or what they are doing…wondering wether or not their spouse is with another person.

The first reaction from a man who has been cheated on is one of disbelief, which then turns to resentment, and then anger. The reason a man usually wants to leave his wife at a time like this is not simply the fact that she cheated and that act can never be forgiven, rather it because he dosen’t want to feel the pain of being cheated on ever again. Being cheated on hurts, and it hurts so much that people are willing to do most anything to avoid being hurt like that again. So if you have ever wondered why people seem like they want to give up on love, you’ll know why.

It is at this point where love must intercede. It takes real love for a couple to put back together the pieces of a broken trust. It takes time, and a lot of hard work and prayer. If a man just straight up decides that he wants a divorce and nothing can change his mind, then he never really loved her to begin with. It is said that true loss only occurs when you love something more than you love yourself. No man who is in love would ever get rid of the only thing in the world that matters to him. He wouldn’t be experiencing true loss because it is apparent that he dosen’t love her more than he loves himself.

This is all given to you in my humble opinion.

 

[Krasnaya_Kometa]

You also have to consider that Jesus says “any man who divorces his wife for any reason other than sexual immorality causes her to be an adulteress”. I have no idea what I’d do in that situation but I know one thing for sure, I’d be severely damaged. There would be a lot of sadness and a lot of hatred, and I don’t know if I wouldn’t just take the easy way out and forget it all. On the other hand, it would depend on how sorry she was. nobody can make themselves feel emotions, but if she wasn’t falling to her knees in remorse it would be kind of hard for me to accept her back as my wife. Like I said, though, I don’t know how I’d feel. I might mention divorce to see how she’d react. If she got angry I probably would, and if she started crying I probably would take her back. It all depends…

 

[lontas]

Allen537 put it perfectly, so I’ll just add a few things to his post.

If I ever ended up with a cheating spouse, I would absolutely not put an end to the marriage. I might separate from her and file for CIVIL divorce if she was totally unrepentent and things got way out of hand, but even then I would do my best to make the marriage work in whatever way it can. Does it hurt to be cheated on and remain alone? Oh yes. But hurt is just a feeling. Love is an action. Even if separated I would still call her and make sure she’s doing okay, etc. No dating, no remarriage. The first marriage would still be very real in God’s eyes.

And that means, the graces of that sacrament are still available should you choose to make use of them. To love a wayward spouse is a cross, and also a ticket to heaven. If you love hard enough, you might even win the spouse back. Peace,

Chris

 

[Ruthie]

I’m with Allen. True love means being willing to die for the other person. (Jn 15:13) I’d jump in front of a truck to push my husband to safety. If he cheated on me, I’d be angry and hurting like hell - but I would do my best to repair the marriage. That’s just another way of laying down my life.

So you hang in there, kiddo. You are right. Even if you are seeing it “in black and white,” as teenagers will, time may add shades of gray, but it won’t change the truth.

Hang in there and don’t settle for less than real love! I had to wait until I was 43, but I found it at last.

 

[Liberian]

Pro Life Teen,

Well, maybe you are young (and as a certified greybeard in his forties I can say that), and maybe you are naive (it goes with youth), but you are also right. Jesus set out the conditions under which a man could divorce his wife, and they’re pretty simple: if it turns out she’s not his wife after all.

The problem that people have with someone like you talking about this is that you have no direct experience with what it feels like to have a spouse making trouble for you. It’s a lot like the attitude priests encounter when they try to talk about artificial birth control: who are you to tell me what to do? The answer, of course, is that you are someone who is far enough away from the situation to have an objective viewpoint.

Speaking as a greybeard with a little experience in this matter, I will back you up. Men, love your wives, as Jesus loves the Church. And that includes the way Jesus loved the Church when Alexander VI was Pope.

Another thing: if you try to stay with your wife, you will be Doing The Right Thing, and God will bless that. I can’t promise how or when (since I am not God), but He will. If you divorce her, you lose God’s blessing there. And if you think being married under these circumstances is tough, wait until you start trying to be divorced under these circumstances.

• Liberian

whose wife ran away three months ago …
… and filed false legal charges against him …
… and is now trying to take him to the cleaners …
… and who has been advised to divorce her by family members, co-workers, and other associates–in fact, by pretty much everybody who has cared to advise him on the subject …
… and who figures that **somebody **needs to stand up and be counted in favor of the sanctity of marriage …

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

Liberian:

Pro Life Teen,

Well, maybe you are young (and as a certified greybeard in his forties I can say that), and maybe you are naive (it goes with youth), but you are also right. Jesus set out the conditions under which a man could divorce his wife, and they’re pretty simple: if it turns out she’s not his wife after all.

The problem that people have with someone like you talking about this is that you have no direct experience with what it feels like to have a spouse making trouble for you. It’s a lot like the attitude priests encounter when they try to talk about artificial birth control: who are you to tell me what to do? The answer, of course, is that you are someone who is far enough away from the situation to have an objective viewpoint.

Speaking as a greybeard with a little experience in this matter, I will back you up. Men, love your wives, as Jesus loves the Church. And that includes the way Jesus loved the Church when Alexander VI was Pope.

Another thing: if you try to stay with your wife, you will be Doing The Right Thing, and God will bless that. I can’t promise how or when (since I am not God), but He will. If you divorce her, you lose God’s blessing there. And if you think being married under these circumstances is tough, wait until you start trying to be divorced under these circumstances.

• Liberian

whose wife ran away three months ago …
… and filed false legal charges against him …
… and is now trying to take him to the cleaners …
… and who has been advised to divorce her by family members, co-workers, and other associates–in fact, by pretty much everybody who has cared to advise him on the subject …
… and who figures that **somebody **needs to stand up and be counted in favor of the sanctity of marriage …

:clapping:
I thank you heartly Liberian and I will pray all turns out well for you. Marriage is too easily something to be broken these days. And I’m glad there is at least one person who believes that marriage is until death. Well, two of us people.

Our Father in Heaven, a simple servant asks that You send a blessing to Liberian and strengthen him when he is in need. I pray this in Your name. Amen.

 

[cheddarsox]

Mary and Joseph aside (they did not have a valid Catholic marriage, having never consumated it, but it was OK since they lived as brother and sister)

Sex is what marriage is about. It is the reason for marriage. Without sex there is no marriage, unconsummated marriage is not a marriage in the eyes of the church.

The only reason the institution of marriage came to be is to protect the people involved in a sexual relationship, man, woman, children.

So, the role of sex in a marriage is very important, there is no getting around that. We can add layers of meaning, flowers, candles, etc, but the sexual union is at the heart of it all.

So I think it would be hard for a very young person to understand why people (good, god fearing, well meaning people) get so emotional and reactive when these things happen.

These things can be overcome. Spouses can be forgiven, love rekindled and trust rebuilt. I speak from experience. But it is not easy, because this issue is not only vastly important to the life of the individual, but also to the heart of the institution of marriage.

Using Mary and Joseph as an example is not a good idea for married couples, as I said, they did not have a valid Catholic marriage. They did not live as husband and wife, they got together with a very different intent and agenda than the couples posting here did. It is not as simple as telling someone that their most important relationship has been drastically altered, well, pretend you have the vocation and calling to celibacy.

The forums provide a place for people to get out there anger and fear and to process the horrible things they are going through. Ultimately, we hope they will be able, with support and prayer to deal with their situation in a manner that is pleasing to God, but cut them some slack. They need time, and a chance, and lots of support and ideas to heal.

Sex and marriage are things very close to a person’s soul. When two become one it is as if your very own self betrayed you. That is hard to deal with. It is sort of like spiritual cancer.

I hope this perspective will help you understand why people post some of the things they do. They are folks caught in extreme situations. Someday, based on how they handle these very struggles, they may well be saints.

cheddar

 

[Liberian]

cheddarsox:

The forums provide a place for people to get out there anger and fear and to process the horrible things they are going through. Ultimately, we hope they will be able, with support and prayer to deal with their situation in a manner that is pleasing to God, but cut them some slack. They need time, and a chance, and lots of support and ideas to heal.

Cheddar,

You are absolutely right. There is a difference between the theological and the pastoral. It is not that the two contradict each other, but that they are different. A lot of what is going on here is theological–establishing that objectively speaking, This is Right and That is Wrong. But a lot of what goes on here is also pastoral–This is what you need to do in your current situation. The difference is one of emphasis rather than of content. But the pastoral should not conflict with the theological; a person is not doing anybody a service if he says “You need to divorce your husband/wife because he/she did .”

Pro Life Teen,

A lot of people do have a very hard row to hoe; I daresy mine is a lot easier than most. But I do thank you for your prayers, and I also repeat that your views on the sanctity of marriage are right on. May God grant you a husband who feels the same way.

• Liberian

 

[Catholic2003]

cheddarsox:

Mary and Joseph aside (they did not have a valid Catholic marriage, having never consumated it, but it was OK since they lived as brother and sister)

I’m afraid you have a few misconceptions about Mary and Joseph’s marriage. Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Exhortation Redemptoris Custos sets the record straight. For example:

The Son of Mary is also Joseph’s Son by virtue of the marriage bond that unites them: “By reason of their faithful marriage both of them deserve to be called Christ’s parents, not only his mother, but also his father, who was a parent in the same way that he was the mother’s spouse: in mind, not in the flesh.” In this marriage none of the requisites of marriage were lacking: "In Christ’s parents all the goods of marriage were realized-offspring, fidelity, the sacrament: the offspring being the Lord Jesus himself; fidelity, since there was no adultery: the sacrament, since there was no divorce."

and

How much the family of today can learn from this! “The essence and role of the family are in the final analysis specified by love. Hence the family has the mission to guard, reveal and communicate love, and this is a living reflection of and a real sharing in God’s love for humanity and the love of Christ the Lord for the Church his bride.” This being the case, it is in the Holy Family, the original “Church in miniature (Ecclesia domestica),” that every Christian family must be reflected. “Through God’s mysterious design, it was in that family that the Son of God spent long years of a hidden life. It is therefore the prototype and example for all Christian families.”

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

cheddarsox:

Mary and Joseph aside (they did not have a valid Catholic marriage, having never consumated it, but it was OK since they lived as brother and sister)
Since Mary and Joseph were Jewish of course they did not have a “Catholic” marriage but they DID have a marriage.
Sex is what marriage is about. It is the reason for marriage. Without sex there is no marriage, unconsummated marriage is not a marriage in the eyes of the church.
True but it is not the only reason recognised. Companionship is the second reason for marriage
The only reason the institution of marriage came to be is to protect the people involved in a sexual relationship, man, woman, children.
This is baloney. Jesus raised marriage to a sacrament and I doubt he had these reasons in mind.
Using Mary and Joseph as an example is not a good idea for married couples, as I said, they did not have a valid Catholic marriage. They did not live as husband and wife, they got together with a very different intent and agenda than the couples posting here did. It is not as simple as telling someone that their most important relationship has been drastically altered, well, pretend you have the vocation and calling to celibacy.
As I said, you are mistaken. Marriage today has indeed come down to romantic love and it is unfortunate. There is more to marriage than sex. Perhaps this is why so many fail today. What keeps a marriage going is a common future to build upon. This is what we have in common with Mary and Joseph that is doing the will of God.

cheddar

 

[Topher]

Krasnaya Kometa:

You also have to consider that Jesus says “any man who divorces his wife for any reason other than sexual immorality causes her to be an adulteress”. I have no idea what I’d do in that situation but I know one thing for sure, I’d be severely damaged. There would be a lot of sadness and a lot of hatred, and I don’t know if I wouldn’t just take the easy way out and forget it all. On the other hand, it would depend on how sorry she was. nobody can make themselves feel emotions, but if she wasn’t falling to her knees in remorse it would be kind of hard for me to accept her back as my wife. Like I said, though, I don’t know how I’d feel. I might mention divorce to see how she’d react. If she got angry I probably would, and if she started crying I probably would take her back. It all depends…

The part about sexual immorality being the only reason for one to be allowed a divorce is actually a mistranslation. The Greek word here actual means that divorce is allowed only in the case that the marriage is unlawful. This actually supports the idea of annulments which recognize that certain marriages are invalid and the sacrament never really occured at all.

 

[rayne89]

cheddarsox:

Sex is what marriage is about. It is the reason for marriage. Without sex there is no marriage, unconsummated marriage is not a marriage in the eyes of the church.

Bah! You’re married 20 years and you say sex is what marriage is all about? I just can’t believe that.

Marital intimacy is gift that bonds a husband and wife together in a very special way. It is something that is meant to help sustain closeness in a marriage. It is also meant to bring forth new life but is not “what marriage is all about.”

Try telling a wife caring for her husband with a brain tumor if sex is what marriage is all about about. Or a husband working 2 jobs to support his family if sex is what marriage is all about. I guess when we’re too old to have sex our marriages are over huh?

CCC

1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love—the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.90 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "And God blessed them, and God said to them: ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’"91

1609 In his mercy God has not forsaken sinful man. The punishments consequent upon sin, “pain in childbearing” and toil "in the sweat of your brow,"100 also embody remedies that limit the damaging effects of sin. After the fall, marriage helps to overcome self-absorption, egoism, pursuit of one’s own pleasure, and to open oneself to the other, to mutual aid and to self-giving.

Yes sexual intimacy is an important part of marriage but it is not what marriage is all about. Marriage is about helping “one another to attain holiness in their married life and in welcoming and educating their children” -according the catechism of the Catholic church.

1642 Christ is the source of this grace. "Just as of old God encountered his people with a covenant of love and fidelity, so our Savior, the spouse of the Church, now encounters Christian spouses through the sacrament of Matrimony."149 Christ dwells with them, gives them the strength to take up their crosses and so follow him, to rise again after they have fallen, to forgive one another, to bear one another’s burdens, to "be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ,"150 and to love one another with supernatural, tender, and fruitful love. In the joys of their love and family life he gives them here on earth a foretaste of the wedding feast of the Lamb:

Pro-life Teen is absolutely correct about what marriage is about.

 

[uther]

I was uneasy with that statement from cheddarsox as well.
What we need to distinguish from here is the pop-culture idea of sex-on-demand. That idea is a result of contraception, in that men of the culture tend to see that contraception has removed any natural inconvenience to intercourse and so when a woman for one reason or another does not want or cannot have intercourse, to that man there is a breach of contract. Likewise, infidelity is a breach of contract strictly from the sexual perspective.

I am another one of those grey beards in the late forties and I find that your comments, Pro-Life_Teen are pertinent. We are inundated with the sex-culture around us and it gets to a point where it is difficult to keep up the mental resistance to the ideas and philosophy of hedonism. Even if someone goes into a marriage with the proper Catholic perspective, it is possible to be heavily influenced by the world around. That a spouse would seek sex outside the marriage usually indicates that there is something wrong that has been wrong for some time, and cannot be put down simply to a lack of sex in the marriage. It is much more complex than that, even though that seems to be a key part of the bond, at least initially. Perhaps the marriage never got past that point, so that without sex at any given time it starts to disintegrate.

In your case, I would say, maintain your ideals. It is extremely rare that someone achieves a high standard by setting out with a low one. And, these forums, insofar as people open up their lives for all to see, can serve as a very practical education tool for you, which I’m sure you know already.

It is possible to have a long marriage, my wife and I just passed our 25th anniversary, and we did everything the wrong way from the start, but that’s another whole story. My advice to you, (we never had a daughter so I hope you’ll forgive my taking this opportunity) is to give yourself, if you intend to be married, every opportunity for success. By that I mean that you can see the problems in marriages and some of them can be minimized or avoided ahead of time by setting some standards of your own.

For one example, mixed marriages (I mean religion, not race) can work but often require a herculean effort for that to happen. Remember, “falling in love” only has to go somewhere if you allow it to. You actually do have control of your emotions. If you can start out in a marriage on the same religious page, you have given yourself an edge. But of course, that also is dependent to a large degree on the commitment to Christ of that person. Clearly there are never any guarantees.

I could go on, but I won’t. You have a strong sense for fidelity and loyalty, both of which can cause you pain, but both of which Christ honors and rewards.

 

[mumto5]

Agree with Rayne on this one. I have to say that after 14 years, if my husband’s mahood fell off or for some reason he was medically unable to have sex again, I would still be faithful to him and be with him. I love him as a person with all my being and while it is wonderful to be close to him in that way, our marriage is based on a lot more.

Infidelity…that would be different. That’s a whole different kettle of fish in which the physical act of sex is only a small part of the issue.