Rant

[movingmom]

Pro life teen - with all of this information you should be well on your way (when you are older) to make a great choice when deciding on whom you are going to marry! Kind of wish I had this insight myself at your age! Don’t worry about messing up, well ALL do - just varying degrees!

 

[StCsDavid]

cheddarsox:

What is the Catholic view then? You yourself quote that the two shall be one flesh. Is that not a reference to the sexual union?

Actually, no. It is a reference to the joining of man and woman in union with Christ. Think of it as becoming part of a kind trinity whose members are man, woman, and God. Though in this trinity…man and woman are not equal to God, but they come together to glorify Him.

cheddarsox:

Does the church not hold that a marriage is not valid until it has been sexually consumated?

While a tribunal may rule that a lack of consumation of marriage can be an indication that one spouse was not entering into the marriage with the intent of fulfilling the sacrament, the marriage is considered valid when Christ unites man and woman.

cheddarsox:

Does the church not refuse to marry people who are physically incapable of completing the sex act?

This may have happened in some cultures, but I’m not aware of it being official church teaching.

cheddarsox:

Companionship is vitally important, but without sex, no marriage. Why is that so hard to accept?

Because it is not true. I believe St. Cecilia was married but remained a virgin. The church has never said her marriage was invalid because she never had sex. Oh, and our Mother Mary was virgin, but no one has questioned the validity of her marriage to Joseph.

cheddarsox:

Both marriage and sex are good things created by God. There is no shame in admitting that sex is important to people, and important in a marriage. It is a special union, a sexual union. Not merely a friendship or any other of the wonderful relationships that people are blessed to have.

I agree with most of that, but marriage is sooooo much more than just the sex. Sexuality has its place in the marriage, it’s just not the most important defining element of it.

cheddarsox:

If sex is not what sets it apart, even in the eyes of God, why is it the only relationship between humans that constitutes a sacrament? cheddar

I believe the catechism describes marriage as a joining of the spouses for the whole of life. My most important responsibility towards my wife is to help her get to Heaven…not just to make love to her. I guess I’m dense to your point. My apologies, but I see you placing far to great a value on the sex part.

 

[cheddarsox]

I am sorry that you see me as overvaluing the sexual act within marriage. It truly does seem to me that by the fact that people on these forums refer to the sex act as the MARITAL act, that I am not alone.

Also, I have always been taught that the two becoming one had to do with the sexual union. And indeed (I checked it out) the church will not marry impotent folk of others who are incapable of completing the act.

And there are places in the Bible where the relationship of God to the church is compared to the union of man and wife.

It certainly seemed to me that both the church and God himself have singled out the sexual union to be something unique, special and worthy of sacramental status,and that it was not improper of me to note the import of the sexual union.

However, I did find that people are allowed to have “Josephite” marriages in which the couples do not conjoin.It must be by common consent and though the marriage is valid, it is not indissovable until it has been consumated. Again, another way in which the church itself recognizes the importance and uniquness of the sex act.

So I stand corrected, as the church does recognize unconsummated marriages as invalid, though not indisolvable.

cheddar

 

[Catholic2003]

StCsDavid:

This may have happened in some cultures, but I’m not aware of it being official church teaching.

It is official Church teaching. See this thread.

 

[cheddarsox]

This issue would not let me go. My marriage is sooo important to me, and sex is an important part of my marriage. So I have been thinking and praying over this, trying to understand why it is so close to my heart.

Growing up I was taught that sex was more than pleasure, and more than a union of bodies, it was a union of souls. And I found this to be true. When my husband and I have sex, we are not just having physical pleasure. We are celebrating our love, reaffirming our union, finding joy amidst the struggles of life, confirming our marriage vows, taking comfort and solace in one another, participating in the creative process, and so much more.

If that were to be taken away from us, it would have a huge impact and leave a huge grief filled wound. It would be akin to taking the Eucharist away from a Jesus loving Catholic. It would be denying us the most intimate and fullest celebration of our union. Sure, there is all that other good and important stuff, but sex is a special way in which a husband and wife bond, celebrate, and enjoy one another.

A Catholic could still be a Catholic without acess to the Eucharist, but I would think most would hope never to have to.

cheddar

 

[sjangelini]

I think this is a very complicated issue. Honestly I can’t judge someone either way for choosing to civilly divorce their spouse because of their infidelity. Of course it would be wrong to remarry or date as the marriage is still valid, but even the Church acknowledges the need for civil dovrces in situations where trust is destroyed and the marriage is unworkable. I don’t know what I would do if faced with the situation, but I think I would be mighty mad. Mostly because it would mean that my spouse is a totally different person than I believed him to be. Adultery is devasting to a marriage, and the person who commits is more than just momentarily weak, he or she is incredibly selfish.

 

[StCsDavid]

Catholic2003:

It is official Church teaching. See this thread.

I learn something new about this faith almost every day. Thanks. I wonder if there’s a dispensation for this?

I guess what troubles me is that technically, the Church doesn’t perform the sacrament of marriage…it’s done between the man, woman, and Christ…the Church largely acting as a witness to the event. Though I could see going down that road could open up a whole new can of worms.

Now you got me interested…I’m going to have to do some reading on this one.

 

[StCsDavid]

cheddarsox:

This issue would not let me go. My marriage is sooo important to me, and sex is an important part of my marriage. So I have been thinking and praying over this, trying to understand why it is so close to my heart.

Growing up I was taught that sex was more than pleasure, and more than a union of bodies, it was a union of souls. And I found this to be true. When my husband and I have sex, we are not just having physical pleasure. We are celebrating our love, reaffirming our union, finding joy amidst the struggles of life, confirming our marriage vows, taking comfort and solace in one another, participating in the creative process, and so much more.

If that were to be taken away from us, it would have a huge impact and leave a huge grief filled wound. It would be akin to taking the Eucharist away from a Jesus loving Catholic. It would be denying us the most intimate and fullest celebration of our union. Sure, there is all that other good and important stuff, but sex is a special way in which a husband and wife bond, celebrate, and enjoy one another.

A Catholic could still be a Catholic without acess to the Eucharist, but I would think most would hope never to have to.
cheddar

Okay, I think I understand better where you’re coming from though I’m not sure I agree with the parallel to the Eucharist in your description. The reason being is that Eucharist is the sacrament, whereas, sex is mearly an element of the sacrament, albeit, an important element. Having said that; however, I’m fully open to the idea that we bring Christ to each other in many ways, and for you and your husband, perhaps your intimate life is the vehicle for that to happen. Fantastic! For others, that spiritual bonding may not require the physical act.

 

[mumto5]

I think one reason I take such a hardline on adultery is that me and my husband have only ever been together in that way. Sex is something we have never shared with anyone else - not even close to it. I know this is unusual in this day in age but the fact it’s something we’ve shared only between us is something we think is extra special. We think this adds to the intimacy of the relationship for us and so if one of us was to go and share that with someone else, it would be HUGE. More so than if we’d already had outside experiences as that uniqueness would be lost forever.

I really don’t think I could get over it and sleep with my husband again. It would always feel ‘tainted’ and on another note, I wouldn’t want to risk exposing myself to disease. I would stay with him but I think that part of our marriage would be over. How could you get over thinking about the ‘other woman’ while engaged in the act after that? If my marriage did fall apart because of it, assuming I got an annulment though I wouldn’t plan to, I don’t think I could marry again.

 

[Catholic2003]

mumto5:

I think one reason I take such a hardline on adultery is that me and my husband have only ever been together in that way. Sex is something we have never shared with anyone else - not even close to it. I know this is unusual in this day in age but the fact it’s something we’ve shared only between us is something we think is extra special. We think this adds to the intimacy of the relationship for us and so if one of us was to go and share that with someone else, it would be HUGE. More so than if we’d already had outside experiences as that uniqueness would be lost forever.

This is a very good point.

Looking back in history, the rise in the secular attitude that adultery is just another marital problem occurred at the same time that premarital sex became widespread, and virgins marrying virgins was no longer the norm. After all, if you’ve slept with 20 people besides your spouse, what’s the big deal if one of those times was after the wedding?

 

[Catholic2003]

StCsDavid:

I learn something new about this faith almost every day. Thanks. I wonder if there’s a dispensation for this?

Catholic Answers forums are good for that.

The impediment comes from divine law, so there is no dispensation possible.

 

[StCsDavid]

Catholic2003:

Catholic Answers forums are good for that.

The impediment comes from divine law, so there is no dispensation possible.

That’s actually a good argument one could use against same sex marriage in that the faith isn’t discriminating against gay, per say, but rather upholding its firm convictions on the conditions that must be present for the sacrament of marriage to take place.

Unfortunately I can hear the media screaming that the Catholic Church considers gays and the disabled as unworthy.

The question that now pops into my head is how does the Church then permit the marriage of elderly people way past their reproductive years? Sort of along the same lines, should the Church permit the marriage of a couple where say the man has had a vasectomy before coming into the faith? If so, how does that differ from the disabled person unable to perform his marital duties in bed, but open to the adoption of children?

 

[coyote]

Allen537:

I agree with you, but let me try and give you a man’s perspective on this kind of situation.

For many men, a serious relationship is built on trust. A man must be able to trust his wife completely, and the same for the woman.

For many, trust is the foundation on which a solid marriage is built. I think it would be very difficult to be married to a person you didn’t trust. I can imagian the agony a person must go through not knowing where their spouse is or what they are doing…wondering

wether or not their spouse is with another person.

The same trust issue surrounds a spouse who is alcoholic, gambles, is violent or uses drugs. Are these issues lesser crimes against marital trust than infidelity? One spouse is substituting fidelity to the relationship for “fidelity” to an outside pursuit. The same level of neglect, abandonment and endangerment occurrs.

 

[coyote]

Also, I have always been taught that the two becoming one had to do with the sexual union. And indeed (I checked it out) the church will not marry impotent folk of others who are incapable of completing the act.

Is this true?

 

[MrsCinMI]

Krasnaya Kometa:

You also have to consider that Jesus says “any man who divorces his wife for any reason other than sexual immorality causes her to be an adulteress.”

Divorce causes problems, and the actions of one spouse affects the other spouse, both in this life and in the afterlife with your soul.

In this instance, if the woman commits sexual immorality, she causes herself to be an adultress, and she has the sin of committing adultry on her soul.

However, if the wife does not commit sexual immorality but the husband still divorces her, He Causes Her to be an adultress. The responsibility of her adultry is on his soul, not hers.

Thank you.

 

[MrsCinMI]

lontas:

If I ever ended up with a cheating spouse, I would absolutely not put an end to the marriage…, but then I would do my best to make the marriage work in whatever way it can. Does it hurt to be cheated on and remain alone? Oh yes. But hurt is just a feeling. Love is an action…No dating, no remarriage. The first marriage would still be very real in God’s eyes.

And that means, the graces of that sacrament are still available should you choose to make use of them. To love a wayward spouse is a cross, and also a ticket to heaven. If you love hard enough, you might even win the spouse back. Peace,

Chris

Chris nailed it pretty head on.

What I teach my 7th & 8th grade Cathecism are

1. Marriage is a Sacrament from God-a gift to bring us closer to him.
2. God is a guest of your Marriage, a witness along with Mom & Dad, etc. Marriage is accountable to God and your family and friends, not just you and your spouse.
3. Marriage is a union of two souls, thus a new life is born and will die when one of the spouses dies. Celebrate the new life, understand it has to grow and mature and will have easy and hard times.
4. Define between solid personality traits and good habits: same religion, good work ethic and respect for money, lasting friends, loving relationship with his/her family shows a solid soul to build on. Anyone can learn to be a good cook, snazzy dancer, or know the latest buzz words and the coolest places.
   And lastly, 4. Keep these in mind when you decide to go from dating to a relationship with someone. You just may spend the rest of your life with this person; don’t ignore problems with the person’s character.

Also note, does the person appreciate how valuable you are and that he/she wants to change for the better? example: quits smoking, gets back to church, reconciles with mom/dad, etc?

Sex: If a marriage has sexual problems, many factors can contribute. Normally, sexual problems are a result from a larger problem such as lack of trust, dissolution of intimacy, or the spouse doesn’t respect him/herself and turns off the other spouse (think of fat, slothy spouse who doesn’t bathe and won’t after repeated pleas from the spouse and kiddies).

Now, just because one person sins and hurts you doesn’t mean you now have the right to sin right back; this flies in the face of our Faith. It is at this time your faith is being tested. What will you chose: divorce the jerk and find someone else lovely, or have the jerk choose to leave you and you keep your promise to God?

Don’t follow the world’s response; its wrong to quit a marriage. Remember, God was a guest at your wedding, and He’ll want to know what’s going on. Take up the Cross that’s been handed to you, ask God for direction and help, ask the priest for direction and help, protect your children-ALWAYS, Pray for your Spouse’s soul and a miracle to occur, and then go forward with your life. One of the parents needs to be a good role model for the kids.

Always follow God. As hard as it seems to be, be obedient, ask for help always, and plod forward.

Thank you.

 

[need_to_know]

Pro-Life_Teen:

I really hope this doesn’t get me suspended, but I have to say this and maybe at least some people’ll see it.

I have been on these forums for a while and there is one thing that is annoying me greatly. The way that a few men find that if their wives do something wrong, they can divorce them and leave.

There was one poster, I remember, wanted a divorce because his wife wouldn’t have sex with him. I replied that I thought the idea was stupid. Simply that reason?

I found it, and still do find it, very foolish to divorce the person that you’re married to, simply because of lack of sex. Mary and Joseph never had sex and a few other couples abstain as well, for medical reasons etc.

Anyways, I was called young and naive and soon after the forums were cleaned out and that thread’s gone now.

In a recent thread a man wishes to divorce his wife because she cheated and is now with another man’s child.

I realize this situation is hard and painful, but a divorce? An annulment? Leaving them… just alone?

Why arn’t these men sticking around, wanting to help their wives?

I want to know that my future husband will be willing to help me find the path if I stray from it. I don’t intend to at all, I wouldn’t think of being unfaithful, but we’re all human and we all sin. If not one thing, another.

I know I’m only fifteen. I know I might not get it like some of you older here. But I want to learn and realize this POV I’ve been seeing.

If divorce/annulment is fine because of adultry, what about lying? What about other sins? Gluttony? Sloth?

Should we not try to help our spouse find the path to God? Help them, instead of leaving them?

Thank you for reading this and replying. I trully hope I didn’t insult anyone or anger anyone. And if I did, I apologize now.

I totally agree, Pro-Life. Me and my girlfriend both agree that there should never be divorce (except in extreme cases e.g. domestic violence, marital rape, etc.) although she does not hold Catholic-type beliefs like I do, she agrees that marriage is still a sacred bond which should for the vast majority never be broken. She’s also a pro-lifer, which is a plus too!

 

[cheddarsox]

StCsDavid:

The question that now pops into my head is how does the Church then permit the marriage of elderly people way past their reproductive years? Sort of along the same lines, should the Church permit the marriage of a couple where say the man has had a vasectomy before coming into the faith? If so, how does that differ from the disabled person unable to perform his marital duties in bed, but open to the adoption of children?

I read the teachings on this while I was looking up the other stuff. Infertility is not an impediment to marriage, whether natural, or induced.

It is not the same as not being able to do the act of sex. One must be able to compleate the sexual act, because it is considered the marital duty and what one must be able to give to their spouse if the spouse desires it. Two people can marry and agree not to have sex, but they must be able to have sex incase one later desires it.

This is all in the catechism.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

coyote:

Is this true?

Yes, it is true, it is in the catechism in the section on marriage.
I do not have the capability to cut and paste on this forum, so perhaps someone else could provide the quote. Or you could look it up yourself.

cheddar

 

[Catholic2003]

coyote:

The same trust issue surrounds a spouse who is alcoholic, gambles, is violent or uses drugs. Are these issues lesser crimes against marital trust than infidelity? One spouse is substituting fidelity to the relationship for “fidelity” to an outside pursuit. The same level of neglect, abandonment and endangerment occurrs.

Yes, they are lesser crimes. The secular world may say otherwise, but the Church clearly teaches that adultery is a unique violation of marital trust and of the marital relationship, completely unlike the other problems you mention.

I think we should strive to form our consciences around what the Church teaches, and not what the secular world teaches. The secular viewpoint is directly responsible for the concept of “no-fault” divorce which has taken over our society, e.g., “Yes, it is true that the husband cheated, but the wife is also to blame because she gained some weight, so neither one is really at fault.”