Rapture - The End Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind

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MaggieOH:
Oriel,

the one gift that Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles is that of the right to discern the Truth. That gift, through the Holy Spirit has been passed on via Apostolic Succession. We have the benefit of the thousands of theologians, early Christian, Catholic and Protestant, who have passed down to us, their own views on the interpretation of the Scripture. Sadly, some of those theologians have believed that they have the right to interpret scripture in such a way that only what they proclaim is the right way, even if it goes against the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

As a Catholic, I discern and accept the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. At the same time, I feel that I can learn from others, such as the late William Barclay, professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at University of Glasgow. He belonged to the Kirk in Scotland (Presbyterian). Even if William Barclay has made some theological errors, he remained orthodox in his study guides on the New Testament. Barclay’s study of the Book of Revelation is methodical and quite detailed. He considered as many aspects as necessary of this book to give the widest possible explanations, including Catholic understandings that were dismissed by him.

The greatest of Protestant and Catholic theological minds do not teach the dispensationalist rapture interpretation of the Scripture. As serious scholars they have studied the texts in detail and they have studied the history of the times in which the documents were written. Amongst these theologians we have the work of Dr. Scott Hahn, and he has also done a lot of study on this subject.

Apocryphl literature is very hard to understand because of the way that it is worded. There is a cosmology that is difficult to grasp unless one has an understanding of the Jewish mind responsible for the writing. This is the category in which the Book of Revelation fits. Before looking into the future aspects of the writing you need to have a thorough understanding of the history of the times, the suffering of the Christians at the time, as well as an understanding of the minds of the writer and the readers.

This kind of literature is not meant to be taken literally. There is just too much hidden meaning that surfaces. I know how I have struggled understanding much of the Book of Ezekiel because it did not make a lot of sense. Only now that I have a more mature understanding of the Scripture have I been able to grasp at what the writer was saying. I am surprised how much that book has opened up to me as I have begun to be able to put the Scripture in the whole of its context, rather than one verse here and there that supports what is truly false doctrine.

It is nothing more than an ad hominem attack to say to someone “you are lazy” just because that person does not believe in a doctrine that is so utterly flawed where logic and reason is concerned.

Maggie
I have specifically introduced the use of numbers in Biblical texts and Revelation in particular through the one person who seemed to be on the right track - St Augustine.

newadvent.org/fathers/1701122.htm

The use of 153 in Johannine theology is like 666 (to which it is associated by virtue of the same authorial community) insofar as you can arrive at the figures through simple addition

153 = 1+2+3 … 17

666 = 1+2+3…36

Now Maggie,without going through the painstaking and intricate task of sketching out the entire structure of Revelation you have at least a bridge between the Book Of Revelation and the Johannine Word.It can be objected that the connection is too meagre to be of any use however with a growing familiarity and appreceation of the Johannine author’s work,all the really silly associations between Revelation and historical Rome or Revelation and contemporary events are consigned as exotic or dour guesswork.

The closest text that approaches that of the Book Of Revelation is the artificial structure of the Matthean genealogy and the associated text,at least in terms of a geometrical/mathematical facet.So,basically anyone who wishes to appreceate Revelation is better off beginning with Matthew 1 1 -17.

The historical order of Jesus,David and Abraham is reversed in the opening line,there are 3 sets of 14 generations with a truncated 3rd section of 13 generations.There is a division of the Babylonian exile which is extremely subtle in its association with another chronology and structure.In other words,I can marvel at the economy of the Matthean author in saying so much with so little,apart from Fr Raymond Brown few have any idea just what a jewel this is.
 
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oriel36:
I have specifically introduced the use of numbers in Biblical texts and Revelation in particular through the one person who seemed to be on the right track - St Augustine.

newadvent.org/fathers/1701122.htm

The use of 153 in Johannine theology is like 666 (to which it is associated by virtue of the same authorial community) insofar as you can arrive at the figures through simple addition

153 = 1+2+3 … 17

666 = 1+2+3…36

Now Maggie,without going through the painstaking and intricate task of sketching out the entire structure of Revelation you have at least a bridge between the Book Of Revelation and the Johannine Word.It can be objected that the connection is too meagre to be of any use however with a growing familiarity and appreceation of the Johannine author’s work,all the really silly associations between Revelation and historical Rome or Revelation and contemporary events are consigned as exotic or dour guesswork.

The closest text that approaches that of the Book Of Revelation is the artificial structure of the Matthean genealogy and the associated text,at least in terms of a geometrical/mathematical facet.So,basically anyone who wishes to appreceate Revelation is better off beginning with Matthew 1 1 -17.

The historical order of Jesus,David and Abraham is reversed in the opening line,there are 3 sets of 14 generations with a truncated 3rd section of 13 generations.There is a division of the Babylonian exile which is extremely subtle in its association with another chronology and structure.In other words,I can marvel at the economy of the Matthean author in saying so much with so little,apart from Fr Raymond Brown few have any idea just what a jewel this is.
This has nothing to do with the subject. Please stay on topic or go start your own thread on what you want to discuss. I have reported you once and I will do so again if you persist in attempting to hijack this thread.

MaggieOH
 
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oriel36:
I have specifically introduced the use of numbers in Biblical texts and Revelation in particular through the one person who seemed to be on the right track - St Augustine.

newadvent.org/fathers/1701122.htm

The use of 153 in Johannine theology is like 666 (to which it is associated by virtue of the same authorial community) insofar as you can arrive at the figures through simple addition

153 = 1+2+3 … 17

666 = 1+2+3…36

Now Maggie,without going through the painstaking and intricate task of sketching out the entire structure of Revelation you have at least a bridge between the Book Of Revelation and the Johannine Word.It can be objected that the connection is too meagre to be of any use however with a growing familiarity and appreceation of the Johannine author’s work,all the really silly associations between Revelation and historical Rome or Revelation and contemporary events are consigned as exotic or dour guesswork.

The closest text that approaches that of the Book Of Revelation is the artificial structure of the Matthean genealogy and the associated text,at least in terms of a geometrical/mathematical facet.So,basically anyone who wishes to appreceate Revelation is better off beginning with Matthew 1 1 -17.

The historical order of Jesus,David and Abraham is reversed in the opening line,there are 3 sets of 14 generations with a truncated 3rd section of 13 generations.There is a division of the Babylonian exile which is extremely subtle in its association with another chronology and structure.In other words,I can marvel at the economy of the Matthean author in saying so much with so little,apart from Fr Raymond Brown few have any idea just what a jewel this is.
 
Getting back to the thread. I know this has been said before, but it is worth saying again:

Dispensationalism as a religious belief system has it’s origins in the 1830s in England, when one Mr. John Nelson Darby (1800-1880) developed the ideas of various dispensations under which God tested man throughout human history. Side by side with the development of this system was a revelation given to 20- year-old Margaret MacDonald at a prayer meeting, in Port Glasgow Scotland, where she had a vision of the “rapture”. Dispensationalism and the “rapture” were to become intimately connected in an erroneous and novel teaching, unknown in the history of Christianity. The doctrines of Dispensationalism were systematized by Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921) in his “Scofield Reference Sacred Scripture” (Oxford University Press,1909).The Scofield Bible had an immediate impact on what the average Christian believes. Due in large part to Scofield, vast numbers of Christians now hold the view that Christ will return for Christians before the Great Tribulation (rapture), a teaching not held by any significant segment of the church before the mid-1800s.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:

There is no doubt that Catholics are unfamiliar with St Augustine’s treatment of 153 as the sum of all the numbers of 1 through 17 and indeed 666 as the value from 1 through 36.Therefore I remain within the apostolic tradition when approaching these facets of Biblical texts while the orthodox contemporary treatment would border on heretical.

There is no room whatsoever in the Christian texts to support gematria or the substitution of numbers for words directly.I raise the single objection against the misuse of the Book Of Revelation whether it is by Maggie or the Rapturists or whatever they are called.

I have specifically used the reference to Matthew 1 1-17 to support that gematria is proabably the dumbest way to approach the use of numbers in the Biblical text ( David/14)

cathtruth.com/catholicbible/matt1.htm

There is no pressure on any Catholic to comprehend the mathematical/geometric facet of Revelation but neither can a Catholic use it as a scriptural club against those who can’t get past the images or the literary gargoyles the author used in constructing the narrative.

I assure Maggie that sanctioning of gematria as an option to comprehend the Book Of Revelation is a poor choice which is barely above those who imagine Revelation as a newspaper account of future observable events.In other words take the beam out of your own eyes before you presume to take the mote out of others.
 
Can one of the “official” CA Forums Apologists please decifer and translate this gibberish please? I loathe the idea of having to get a double PhD in theology and mathmatics just to be able to complhend what is being said here.
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oriel36:
There is no doubt that Catholics are unfamiliar with St Augustine’s treatment of 153 as the sum of all the numbers of 1 through 17 and indeed 666 as the value from 1 through 36.Therefore I remain within the apostolic tradition when approaching these facets of Biblical texts while the orthodox contemporary treatment would border on heretical.

There is no room whatsoever in the Christian texts to support gematria or the substitution of numbers for words directly.I raise the single objection against the misuse of the Book Of Revelation whether it is by Maggie or the Rapturists or whatever they are called.

I have specifically used the reference to Matthew 1 1-17 to support that gematria is proabably the dumbest way to approach the use of numbers in the Biblical text ( David/14)

cathtruth.com/catholicbible/matt1.htm

There is no pressure on any Catholic to comprehend the mathematical/geometric facet of Revelation but neither can a Catholic use it as a scriptural club against those who can’t get past the images or the literary gargoyles the author used in constructing the narrative.

I assure Maggie that sanctioning of gematria as an option to comprehend the Book Of Revelation is a poor choice which is barely above those who imagine Revelation as a newspaper account of future observable events.In other words take the beam out of your own eyes before you presume to take the mote out of others.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Can one of the “official” CA Forums Apologists please decifer and translate this gibberish please? I loathe the idea of having to get a double PhD in theology and mathmatics just to be able to complhend what is being said here.
St Augustine knew that the use of 153 represented a ‘great mystery’ in the Johannine gospel and came as close as anyone to correctly identifying the particular reason that went into its appearance at the end of that gospel.

That figure basically tells you why you cannot use gematria to decipher 666 and more importantly,it prevents ideologists like Maggie here from conveniently explaining away Revelation as a historical artifact to be used against other Christians who unfortunately believe the images of Revelation to be corporeal.

There is a good reason Catholics are unfamiliar with Augustine’s correct method for evaluating the number 153 insofar as gematria is thought to play a part in discerning 666.It is not and never was a factor in the Book Of Revelation,only Augustine’s method is correct.

Decipher this,if you don’t know the intent and purpose of the Book Of Revelation,don’t use against Christian who likewise know no better.
 
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oriel36:
St Augustine knew that the use of 153 represented a ‘great mystery’ in the Johannine gospel and came as close as anyone to correctly identifying the particular reason that went into its appearance at the end of that gospel.

That figure basically tells you why you cannot use gematria to decipher 666 and more importantly,it prevents ideologists like Maggie here from conveniently explaining away Revelation as a historical artifact to be used against other Christians who unfortunately believe the images of Revelation to be corporeal.

There is a good reason Catholics are unfamiliar with Augustine’s correct method for evaluating the number 153 insofar as gematria is thought to play a part in discerning 666.It is not and never was a factor in the Book Of Revelation,only Augustine’s method is correct.

Decipher this,if you don’t know the intent and purpose of the Book Of Revelation,don’t use against Christian who likewise know no better.
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Mickey said:

It’s O.K., no harm done.

There are some Christian works that make the heart swell with pride and the Book Of Revelation is one of them.Many are happy to associate the images of Revelation with Nero and Rome while others associate it with corporeal future events but the truth of the matter is that the language of Revelation belongs to the contemplative tradition of Christianity.

Ultimately,understanding contemplative tradition such as the Johannine and Pauline writings belongs to a gift of God rather than theological guesswork and the Book Of Revelation falls into the same category.

Catholics may find the words of Dionysius the Areopagite puzzling and as making little sense ( his words were used by many of the great Christian contemplatives) however there will be a few who will find his words dynamic and clear as can be,likewise with a bit of effort, the Book Of Revelation and the ends to which it was constructed will become clear.

CHAPTER V
That it that is the pre-eminent Cause of all things intelligibly perceived is not itself any of those things.

Again, ascending yet higher, we maintain that it is neither soul nor intellect; nor has it imagination, opinion reason or understanding; nor can it be expressed or conceived, since it is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is it standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has it power nor is power, nor is light; neither does it live nor is it life; neither is it essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is it subject to intelligible contact; nor is it science nor truth, nor kingship nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is it spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation- free from every limitation and beyond them all.

esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html

Did not Jesus say - I AM.

Why do none of you believe this ?.
 
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oriel36:
Why do none of you believe this?
Maybe because none of us have a flippin’ clue what your talking about. YOu almost sound like your talking about numerology.
 
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oriel36:
There is no doubt that Catholics are unfamiliar with St Augustine’s treatment of 153 as the sum of all the numbers of 1 through 17 and indeed 666 as the value from 1 through 36.Therefore I remain within the apostolic tradition when approaching these facets of Biblical texts while the orthodox contemporary treatment would border on heretical.

There is no room whatsoever in the Christian texts to support gematria or the substitution of numbers for words directly.I raise the single objection against the misuse of the Book Of Revelation whether it is by Maggie or the Rapturists or whatever they are called.

I have specifically used the reference to Matthew 1 1-17 to support that gematria is proabably the dumbest way to approach the use of numbers in the Biblical text ( David/14)

cathtruth.com/catholicbible/matt1.htm

There is no pressure on any Catholic to comprehend the mathematical/geometric facet of Revelation but neither can a Catholic use it as a scriptural club against those who can’t get past the images or the literary gargoyles the author used in constructing the narrative.

I assure Maggie that sanctioning of gematria as an option to comprehend the Book Of Revelation is a poor choice which is barely above those who imagine Revelation as a newspaper account of future observable events.In other words take the beam out of your own eyes before you presume to take the mote out of others.
This has nothing to do with this thread. I have stated several times that you need to pay attention to the purpose of your thread and stop with your own agenda.

I am reporting you again for yet another attempt to hijack this thread.

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
This has nothing to do with this thread. I have stated several times that you need to pay attention to the purpose of your thread and stop with your own agenda.

I am reporting you again for yet another attempt to hijack this thread.

Maggie
Amen. This is why I have not been wasting my time on this in several days.
 
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philipmarus:
Amen. This is why I have not been wasting my time on this in several days.
Phil,

I agree that we must not waste time on issues that are not involved in the thread.

I am only interested in addressing the End Times errors that we are facing at the present time. My purpose is to keep on track of discussing the points that have been well made by David Currie, Paul Thigpen and others who have discussed this issue at length. On the Protestant side of the coin, I add the late William Barclay, a Presbyterian and Professor of Theology (who also made some small errors in his thinking) because he has a very good and believable discussion on the times in which the Book of Revelation was written.

So let us get this thread back on track.

Maggie
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Maybe because none of us have a flippin’ clue what your talking about. YOu almost sound like your talking about numerology.
Scott, not almost talking about numerology, she is talking about numerology and New Age.

However, this is going to get the discussion off track so I suggest that we all ignore this person, because all she wants to do is push her own agenda, which is incompatible to this thread.

Maggie
 
Serendipity you have made many good points in your post
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serendipity:
Definitely think the fall fo Jerusalem was the promise to that generation, though so many times in the Bible, concluded events have the potential to foreshadow developments in the future.
I agree with this point of view and from the Scriptural point of view I believe that there is a constant theme of things that are being foreshadowed. These are the prophecies that spoke of events in their own times as well as pointing to the Messiah. This is especially so in the Books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, as well as Ezekiel and others. In fact the way that Jesus instructed the Apostles was to point them to the Scriptures that pointed to Him as the Messiah. That is why it is necessary to examine the historical period before looking to the future.

This brings us back to Matthew’s Gospel, and the Olivet discourse. Darkness most certainly did come over the land when Jesus died on the Cross. Yes, there were three days of darkness when Jesus was tortured, and then crucified and then laid in the tomb. Does the darkness just represent physical darkness, or is there also a reference to the darkness of sin and the apparent triumph of Satan?
I think it was necessary as a sign to demonstrate the truth of Jesus as Christ, because the resurrection alone may not have convinced people, since to this day, many claim that it is possible that Jesus really didn’t die or that his body may have been smuggled out by his followers.
This is an excellent point, because the Evangelists made sure that we understood that the Jews did indeed attempt to bribe the soldiers who were at the tomb to lie and to say that the body of Jesus was taken by his followers.

You are correct when you say that the Resurrection alone was not enough to convice people. Yet many were convinced to the point that on the day of Pentecost they repented of their sin and converted through the administration of the Sacrament of Baptism. All the same the Resurrection was not enough for the ones that John calls the Jews.

Yes, and one of those who makes this false claim is Dr. Barbara Thiering. She has written four books on the subject, the last being “the Gospel that Jesus wrote” which happened to be the Gnostic gospel of Thomas.
Also, the sign helped sow the seeds of faith for the early Christians, that if that part fo the prophecy was fulfilled, then the final judgement prophecy too must be valid and lives must be amend in preparation for it. Many Christians of the time interpreted the signs that Jesus predicted as indicating that the fulfillment of the Olivet discourse was about to occur, which is why they were able to flee to the hills in Jordan, and not be killed in Jerusalem. If they did not do so, one has to wonder if we woudl be Christians today.
I think that this is a very relevant point for our discussion. I like the way that you have framed this answer. It must be remembered that the prophecy said that you better hope that the punishment does not come on a sabbath. The reason for this comment is that the Jews were forbidden to go more than about a mile on the sabbath and if they had to flee because of the arrival of Roman soldiers then they have the predicament of not being able to flee.

Once again I am reminded of the story that is told about the Maccabean wars in the Books of the Maccabees about the Hasidic Jews who refused to defend themselves from the enemy because it was the sabbath. They were slaughtered. I suspect that Jesus was also bringing this to the minds of his audience who were all too familiar with the story of the tribulation that was endured at the hands of the Greeks before they were soundly defeated and forced to leave Jerusalem.

Keeping this in mind, we can see that when the Romans did strike in Jerusalem, the city was full of Jews from all over the Diaspora because of a feast that required attendance at the Temple.

It is not impossible to see that the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem was a sign that one age (the age of the Old Covenant) had come to an end. No more animal sacrifices were required because the most Perfect Sacrifice had been made - a Sacrifice that is applied to the past sacrifices, present sacrifices and future sacrifices. At the same time it is further evidence of the dawning of the New Covenant that had been executed in the Blood of Jesus Christ.

A question can be raised: how does this apply to the belief that Christ’s coming was immanent?

MaggieOH
 
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BibleReader:
No, it has not been fulfilled.

But, it is beginning to be.

END TIME MARKERS

32 ****Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.” Matthew 24:32. I think that the Fundamentalists are right on this: The sprouting of the fig tree is the resurgence of Israel after World War II. Jeremiah 24 makes it clear that figs and the fig tree are the people of the Old Law, the Hebrews/Jews. A re-sprouting fig tree would be a resurgence of Israel.

19 ****Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days.” Matthew 24:19. Wherever Jesus says ouai, “woe,” he is making a threat: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes”; "Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come! "; “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter”; “woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.”

Why in Heaven’s name would Jesus threaten “pregnant women” and “nursing mothers”???!!!

He’s not. He’s threatening those who should be pregnant or nursing – aborting mothers!

In other words, our current abortion age is one of the End Times markers. 30,000,000 dead in America, alone.
BR,

you make some good points that do point to the fact that we are coming to the end of an age, but I am not certain that we are coming to the end of Time.

Before getting into the future aspects of the words of Jesus (that is what applies to our time) I think that we need to look at the historical aspects of the statements made by Jesus.

Why a warning against pregnant women and nursing mothers? Because if they had to flee in a hurry then they would suffer hardship because of their “condition”. Like you, I have often wondered about why this would be mentioned, and I will agree that there is definitely something for our own time in that particular “woe” that was pronounced. In fact I agree with your take about procured abortion, but I think that perhaps there is a wider application than those who have procured abortions. What about the young women who have been pregnant and have continued to take their drugs of addiction. There is the use of other substances that have proved to be a problem for the pregnant mother such as thalidomide.

Yet, I wonder whether the warning existed because of the difficulty that would be experienced by a pregnant woman or a woman with young children if she had to suddenly flee her home because of the arrival of Roman soldiers intent upon torture. Also, and this goes back to the Books of the Maccabees, it could be that Jesus was bringing to mind again the time when the Greeks had control over Jerusalem. I draw your attention to the opening paragraphs of these books where the pregnant and nursing mothers faced grave dangers. For it was written:

“The attack was pressed home on the sabbath itself, and they were slaughtered, with their wives and children and cattle, to the number of one thousand persons.” (1Macc 2:38)

“For example there were two women charged with having circumcised their children. They were paraded publicly round the town, with their babies hung at their breasts and then hurled over the city wall.” (2 Macc 6:10)

and again with the warning about the sabbath:

“Other people who had assembled in the caves to keep the sabbath day without attracting attention were denounced to Philip and all burned together, since their consciences would not allow them to defend themselves out of respect for the holiness of the day” (2 Macc 6:11)

Maggie
 
All those scripture passages reference the eschatological completion of salvation.

The spiritual reality that is referenced has already happenned. Christ said; " I saw satan fall like lightning."

That is an eternal reality Christ mentions that is complete in Him but is currently manifesting internally and relatively too sublime for man’s conscious awareness. In as much as a person is aware of it as an internal reality it can be seen in it’s external manifestation.

It will manifest visibly once it can no longer see it’s cover threatened. Can you imagine what it will be like in a world where the Gospel holds no sway? when the world will funtion out of a construct of reality that rejects Truth not in part like now, but rejected completely. The ‘whole’ rest of the world mind you. It will be as if we don’t exist here anymore. This environment will wittle the Body of Christ down to it’s 40 day desert experience that will culminate in Satan’s defeat because Christ’s body was disciplined and proved incorrupt.
 
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MaggieOH:
BR,

you make some good points that do point to the fact that we are coming to the end of an age, but I am not certain that we are coming to the end of Time.

Before getting into the future aspects of the words of Jesus (that is what applies to our time) I think that we need to look at the historical aspects of the statements made by Jesus.

Why a warning against pregnant women and nursing mothers? Because if they had to flee in a hurry then they would suffer hardship because of their “condition”. Like you, I have often wondered about why this would be mentioned, and I will agree that there is definitely something for our own time in that particular “woe” that was pronounced. In fact I agree with your take about procured abortion, but I think that perhaps there is a wider application than those who have procured abortions. What about the young women who have been pregnant and have continued to take their drugs of addiction. There is the use of other substances that have proved to be a problem for the pregnant mother such as thalidomide.

Yet, I wonder whether the warning existed because of the difficulty that would be experienced by a pregnant woman or a woman with young children if she had to suddenly flee her home because of the arrival of Roman soldiers intent upon torture. Also, and this goes back to the Books of the Maccabees, it could be that Jesus was bringing to mind again the time when the Greeks had control over Jerusalem. I draw your attention to the opening paragraphs of these books where the pregnant and nursing mothers faced grave dangers. For it was written:

“The attack was pressed home on the sabbath itself, and they were slaughtered, with their wives and children and cattle, to the number of one thousand persons.” (1Macc 2:38)

“For example there were two women charged with having circumcised their children. They were paraded publicly round the town, with their babies hung at their breasts and then hurled over the city wall.” (2 Macc 6:10)

and again with the warning about the sabbath:

“Other people who had assembled in the caves to keep the sabbath day without attracting attention were denounced to Philip and all burned together, since their consciences would not allow them to defend themselves out of respect for the holiness of the day” (2 Macc 6:11)

Maggie
I think Christ was also pointing to the sublime spiritual struggle that proceeds wih the moment. Both opposings spiritualities are represented as a pregnant woman and then a woman in labor. these are the culture of life and the culture of death. These are ‘both’ spiritual cultures that are driven to the purpose their God has given them. The spiritual culture of life is the Church on earth. The culture of death is in the air. material cultures access spirtual resourses together manifesting spiritual goods. This is the culture of death on earth. The Church is a spiritual community that manifests and uses material goods. The culture of death is a spiritual community that uses material communities as a resource manifesting material goods.
 
Hi, friends.

Between family, and work, and writing articles on Bible analysis (my spare-time “shtick”), I do not dedicate as much time as I should to the work you folks do in commenting, here. I apologize.
 
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