Rapture - The End Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind

[oriel36]

MaggieOH:

Scott, not almost talking about numerology, she is talking about numerology and New Age.

Maggie

Gematria is numerology and the practice of associating 666 with Nero and the Book Of Revelation with Rome is little more than another version of the Da Vinci codes.

I have received a suspension notice for drawing attension to St Augustine’s approach to 153 as the sum of numbers from 1 through 17 and while Augustine does not say 666 as the sum of numbers from 1 through 36,his method gives an inkling to the relationship between the numbers.

Once the Divine Will entered the world through Jesus,He never left.The Book Of Revelation does nothing other than protect the Johannine Word and the living Word.

Jesus comes as a Gift of God and never leaves hence all inferior conceptions of Jesus assume his return as a physical event external to Christians.

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father,
and it is enough for us.”

Jesus said to him, "So long have I been with you
and have you not known me, Philip?
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father;
how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father
and the Father is in me?
The sayings which I tell you I do not speak from myself;
but the Father living in me does his works.
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me;
or else believe because of the works themselves.

"Amen, amen, I tell you, whoever believes in me
the works which I do that one also will do,
and one will do greater than these,
because I am going to the Father;
whatever you ask for in my name, this I will do,
so that the Father may be glorified by the son.
If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

"If you love me, keep my commandments.
I will ask the Father,
and he will give you another intermediary,
so that he may be with you forever, the spirit of truth,
which the world cannot accept,
because it neither sees it nor knows it;
you know it, because it stays with you and will be in you.

san.beck.org/GoodMessage/Jesus-Syn-83.html

Christ says in time and Eternity - I AM therefore there is nowhere and no time where Christ is not.The disciples eventually did understand why Jesus is God made man just as Paul did through a gift of God.

What end times are you talking about and be specific?.

 

[Benadam]

QUOTE=oriel36]Gematria is numerology and the practice of associating 666 with Nero and the Book Of Revelation with Rome is little more than another version of the Da Vinci codes.

I have received a suspension notice for drawing attension to St Augustine’s approach to 153 as the sum of numbers from 1 through 17 and while Augustine does not say 666 as the sum of numbers from 1 through 36,his method gives an inkling to the relationship between the numbers.

Once the Divine Will entered the world through Jesus,He never left.The Book Of Revelation does nothing other than protect the Johannine Word and the living Word.

Jesus comes as a Gift of God and never leaves hence all inferior conceptions of Jesus assume his return as a physical event external to Christians.

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father,
and it is enough for us.”

Jesus said to him, "So long have I been with you
and have you not known me, Philip?
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father;
how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father
and the Father is in me?
The sayings which I tell you I do not speak from myself;
but the Father living in me does his works.
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me;
or else believe because of the works themselves.

"Amen, amen, I tell you, whoever believes in me
the works which I do that one also will do,
and one will do greater than these,
because I am going to the Father;
whatever you ask for in my name, this I will do,
so that the Father may be glorified by the son.
If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

"If you love me, keep my commandments.
I will ask the Father,
and he will give you another intermediary,
so that he may be with you forever, the spirit of truth,
which the world cannot accept,
because it neither sees it nor knows it;
you know it, because it stays with you and will be in you.

san.beck.org/GoodMessage/Jesus-Syn-83.html

Christ says in time and Eternity - I AM therefore there is nowhere and no time where Christ is not.The disciples eventually did understand why Jesus is God made man just as Paul did through a gift of God.

What end times are you talking about and be specific?.[/QUOT

Oriel, sorry to hear of suspension. Maybe you will be able to answer this, anywayit’s worth a try. The gematria you mention does form a structure of reality. What does it’s structure reveal about the possibility of the People of God becoming perfect without a ‘reforming’ that is a participation with with God in will and action?
[/quote]

 

[MaggieOH]

Benadam:

Oriel, sorry to hear of suspension. Maybe you will be able to answer this, anywayit’s worth a try. The gematria you mention does form a structure of reality. What does it’s structure reveal about the possibility of the People of God becoming perfect without a ‘reforming’ that is a participation with with God in will and action?

Benadam,

this is taking the thread off topic. Can you please do me a favour and start a new thread on gematria. It has nothing at all to do with my thread.

Cheers

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

oriel36:

Gematria is numerology and the practice of associating 666 with Nero and the Book Of Revelation with Rome is little more than another version of the Da Vinci codes.

I have received a suspension notice for drawing attension to St Augustine’s approach to 153 as the sum of numbers from 1 through 17 and while Augustine does not say 666 as the sum of numbers from 1 through 36,his method gives an inkling to the relationship between the numbers.

Once the Divine Will entered the world through Jesus,He never left.The Book Of Revelation does nothing other than protect the Johannine Word and the living Word.

Jesus comes as a Gift of God and never leaves hence all inferior conceptions of Jesus assume his return as a physical event external to Christians.

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father,
and it is enough for us.”

Jesus said to him, "So long have I been with you
and have you not known me, Philip?
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father;
how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father
and the Father is in me?
The sayings which I tell you I do not speak from myself;
but the Father living in me does his works.
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me;
or else believe because of the works themselves.

"Amen, amen, I tell you, whoever believes in me
the works which I do that one also will do,
and one will do greater than these,
because I am going to the Father;
whatever you ask for in my name, this I will do,
so that the Father may be glorified by the son.
If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

"If you love me, keep my commandments.
I will ask the Father,
and he will give you another intermediary,
so that he may be with you forever, the spirit of truth,
which the world cannot accept,
because it neither sees it nor knows it;
you know it, because it stays with you and will be in you.

san.beck.org/GoodMessage/Jesus-Syn-83.html

Christ says in time and Eternity - I AM therefore there is nowhere and no time where Christ is not.The disciples eventually did understand why Jesus is God made man just as Paul did through a gift of God.

What end times are you talking about and be specific?.

Oriel36

this has nothing to do with my thread. I have reported you again for continuing to post material that is off the topic.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

BibleReader:

Hi, friends.

Between family, and work, and writing articles on Bible analysis (my spare-time “shtick”), I do not dedicate as much time as I should to the work you folks do in commenting, here. I apologize.

BR,

That is fine, when you can reply it will be good to hear from you.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Benadam:

I think Christ was also pointing to the sublime spiritual struggle that proceeds wih the moment. Both opposings spiritualities are represented as a pregnant woman and then a woman in labor. these are the culture of life and the culture of death. These are ‘both’ spiritual cultures that are driven to the purpose their God has given them. The spiritual culture of life is the Church on earth. The culture of death is in the air. material cultures access spirtual resourses together manifesting spiritual goods. This is the culture of death on earth. The Church is a spiritual community that manifests and uses material goods. The culture of death is a spiritual community that uses material communities as a resource manifesting material goods.

Benadam,

that is quite an interesting point, but what about the more literal understanding that the people of Jesus’ day would understand what Jesus had said.

With regard to the culture of life and death I do not think that we need go further than to look at those who act upon the grace that the Lord has granted to them and those who reject that grace and get involved in promoting abortion and involuntary euthanasia.

However, this is slightly off topic where this thread is concerned.

MaggieOH

 

[Benadam]

MaggieOH:

Benadam,

that is quite an interesting point, but what about the more literal understanding that the people of Jesus’ day would understand what Jesus had said.

With regard to the culture of life and death I do not think that we need go further than to look at those who act upon the grace that the Lord has granted to them and those who reject that grace and get involved in promoting abortion and involuntary euthanasia.

However, this is slightly off topic where this thread is concerned.

MaggieOH

Jesus was asked to join His friends marveling at the stonework of the jewish temple, the symbol of God’s union with the Jewish people. He told them it would be destroyed.

I believe those who believed in Christ thought it was the judgement Jesus spoke about for the world. People who understand the cyclic characteristic of history and the spiritual element the drives it knows that to have been there meant to be a witness to the final events.

 

[MaggieOH]

Benadam:

Jesus was asked to join His friends marveling at the stonework of the jewish temple, the symbol of God’s union with the Jewish people. He told them it would be destroyed.

I believe those who believed in Christ thought it was the judgement Jesus spoke about for the world. People who understand the cyclic characteristic of history and the spiritual element the drives it knows that to have been there meant to be a witness to the final events.

Ok to restate my own position on the End Times and Scriptural interpretation, I believe that what we see in the Olivet Discourse etc. related to the times in which they were written and that the prophecies were fulfilled at the time. Further, I believe that the Early Christians understood that these things had been fulfilled **but there is an element that indicates that what has already happened is a precursor of events that are to come. **

Yes, there is a cyclic element to the End Times prophecies as they are given in the Scripture, and at the same time **from the beginning of early Christianity there were some who saw themselves as interpreters of the Scriptures and of their times who had it wrong.

**There has been a rise and fall of many movements where there has been a prediction that the world is about to end. All of those prophecies have been proved false, except for the prophecies of the Mt. Olivet Discourse, and that of Daniel that have already come to pass (but that does not mean that there will not be other future events). The early church community understood the prophecy in the light of the destruction of Jerusalem.

One poster correctly identified that the age of the Old Covenant had passed away, and this was symbolized with a finality by the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem. From that time onwards there could not be any more animal sacrifices such that another Old Testament prophecy was also fulfilled:

“From the farthest east to the farthest west, my name is honoured among the nations and everywhere a sacrifice of incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering too, since my name is honoured among the nations says Yahweh Sabaoth.” (Malachi 1:11)

“Look, I am going to send a messenger to prepare a way before me. And the Lord you are seeking will suddenly enter His Temple; and the angel of the covenant whom you are longing for, **yes he is coming, **says Yahweh Sabaoth. Who will be able to resist the day of His coming? **Who will remain standing when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire and the fuller’s alkali. He will take his seat as refiner and purifier; he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and then they will make the offering to Yahweh as it should be made. The offering of Judah and Jerusalem will then by welcomed by Yahweh as in former days, as in the years of old. I mean to visit you for the judgement and I am going to be ready to witness against sorcerer, adulterer and perjurer, against those who oppress the wage-earner, the widow and the orphan, and who rob the settler of his rights - no need for you to be afraid of me says Yahweh Sabaoth.” (Malachi 3: 1-5)

**We need to consider both the physical and the spiritual aspects of the Olivet Discourse in order to discern how it might have relevance for our own time.

Maggie

 

[BibleReader]

For the moment, and Bible Reader is at least going in the right direction except that he has not examined Matthew in light of the prophecies of Daniel and the events surrounding the Maccabean Wars, let us just concentrate on what is written in the Scripture for the moment and then we will see if it is relevant to move into what unknown dispensationalist preachers have to say on the subject.

Maggie

One has to be cautious about using foreshadowings and prophecies in the Old Testament to regulate the meaning of the gospel words describing the actual events in the gospels, or the meaning of Christ’s New Testament interp of the Old Testament words of the foreshadowings and prophecies.

Old Testament foreshadowings and prophecies are best described as predictions made “through a looking glass, darkly.” By-and-large, the New Testament reality regulates the meaning of the Old Testament foreshadowing, not *vice versa. *There are exceptions, but not many.

For example, when God says, in Genesis 3, that, “He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel,” what does that mean? What is that foreshadowing, as “through a looking glass, darkly”?

Simple: All 4 gospels tell us that the cross of Christ pierced the dust of “Skull Place” – “He will strike at your head” – while Jesus hung nailed through the feet – “while you strike at his heel.”

Note how the gospels clarify Genesis, not vice versa.

Another example: In Genesis we are told, “**13 **As Abraham looked about, he spied a ram caught by its horns in the thicket. So he went and took the ram and offered it up as a holocaust in place of his son.” Genesis 22:13. What is that “thicket” business all about?

Simple: “29 Weaving a crown out of thorns, they placed it on his head,” Matthew 27:29.

Once again, the gospel regulates the meaning of the Old Testament prophecy made “through a looking glass, darkly,” not vice versa.

By and large, the words of Daniel and the events of the Maccabean revolt should be considered in light of Jesus’ words in Matthew, not vice versa.

 

[MaggieOH]

For the moment, and Bible Reader is at least going in the right direction except that he has not examined Matthew in light of the prophecies of Daniel and the events surrounding the Maccabean Wars, let us just concentrate on what is written in the Scripture for the moment and then we will see if it is relevant to move into what unknown dispensationalist preachers have to say on the subject.

Maggie

One has to be cautious about using foreshadowings and prophecies in the Old Testament to regulate the meaning of the gospel words describing the actual events in the gospels, or the meaning of Christ’s New Testament interp of the Old Testament words of the foreshadowings and prophecies.

Old Testament foreshadowings and prophecies are best described as predictions made “through a looking glass, darkly.” By-and-large, the New Testament reality regulates the meaning of the Old Testament foreshadowing, not *vice versa. *There are exceptions, but not many.

For example, when God says, in Genesis 3, that, “He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel,” what does that mean? What is that foreshadowing, as “through a looking glass, darkly”?

Simple: All 4 gospels tell us that the cross of Christ pierced the dust of “Skull Place” – “He will strike at your head” – while Jesus hung nailed through the feet – “while you strike at his heel.”

Note how the gospels clarify Genesis, not vice versa.

Another example: In Genesis we are told, “**13 **As Abraham looked about, he spied a ram caught by its horns in the thicket. So he went and took the ram and offered it up as a holocaust in place of his son.” Genesis 22:13. What is that “thicket” business all about?

Simple: “29 Weaving a crown out of thorns, they placed it on his head,” Matthew 27:29.

Once again, the gospel regulates the meaning of the Old Testament prophecy made “through a looking glass, darkly,” not vice versa.

By and large, the words of Daniel and the events of the Maccabean revolt should be considered in light of Jesus’ words in Matthew, not vice versa.

BR,

I am not so certain whether or not I agree with you. I was making those very points, that the words of Jesus brought to mind the events of the Maccabean revolt.

However, please stick to the topic for your comments are not truly on topic as far as the discussion is concerned.

If you read through what I have posted you will see that I have used the Gospels to bring to mind the other Scriptures that relate to the Olivet Discourse. We do need to adopt more of a Jewish mindset in order to understand how the Jews were constantly bringing these events to mind.

If, for example, this discourse occurred at the same time as Hannukah, then there would be no doubt in my mind that Jesus was referring to the events of the Maccabean wars, since Hannukah is a commemoration of those very events and the Maccabean wars would be in the minds of those present.

We are so far removed from that time that we do not appreciate the finer points involved in how Jesus was speaking to the people, or even how the Gospel writers were addressing their audience. That is why many modern interpreters get caught up in looking at how they see future events and have a total disregard for past events.

We need to examine Scripture in terms of past, present and future, not one or the other.

Maggie

 

[gladtobe]

Matthew 24 probably was fulfilled during the siege of Jerusalem by Titus’ army. The prophecy we should be more concerned about is Paul’s prophecy in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.
Here he speaks of the falling away or apostasy in the church and the revelation of the man of sin, who the Lord will destroy at his return. This has not happened yet, but it could in the near future if the church becomes to liberal in it's stance. Time will tell.

 

[BibleReader]

MaggieOH:

BR,

I am not so certain whether or not I agree with you. I was making those very points, that the words of Jesus brought to mind the events of the Maccabean revolt.

However, please stick to the topic for your comments are not truly on topic as far as the discussion is concerned.

If you read through what I have posted you will see that I have used the Gospels to bring to mind the other Scriptures that relate to the Olivet Discourse. We do need to adopt more of a Jewish mindset in order to understand how the Jews were constantly bringing these events to mind.

If, for example, this discourse occurred at the same time as Hannukah, then there would be no doubt in my mind that Jesus was referring to the events of the Maccabean wars, since Hannukah is a commemoration of those very events and the Maccabean wars would be in the minds of those present.

We are so far removed from that time that we do not appreciate the finer points involved in how Jesus was speaking to the people, or even how the Gospel writers were addressing their audience. That is why many modern interpreters get caught up in looking at how they see future events and have a total disregard for past events.

We need to examine Scripture in terms of past, present and future, not one or the other.

Maggie

Hi, Maggie.

The Olivet Discourse had to do with the End Times. How do I know? Well, the discourse begins thusly…

3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and **what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” ****4 **Jesus said to them in reply,…

 

[gladtobe]

In Matthew 24, Jesus was refering to the age the apostles were presently living in and not the final age at the end of the world.

 

[Mijoy2]

BibleReader:

Another example: In Genesis we are told, “**13 **As Abraham looked about, he spied a ram caught by its horns in the thicket. So he went and took the ram and offered it up as a holocaust in place of his son.” Genesis 22:13. What is that “thicket” business all about?

Simple: “29 Weaving a crown out of thorns, they placed it on his head,” Matthew 27:29.

Once again, the gospel regulates the meaning of the Old Testament prophecy made “through a looking glass, darkly,” not vice versa.

By and large, the words of Daniel and the events of the Maccabean revolt should be considered in light of Jesus’ words in Matthew, not vice versa.

Wow, this is soooo enlightneing.

Is this parallel a stretch, or is it God’s divine intention?

 

[MaggieOH]

gladtobe:

Matthew 24 probably was fulfilled during the siege of Jerusalem by Titus’ army. The prophecy we should be more concerned about is Paul’s prophecy in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.

Here he speaks of the falling away or apostasy in the church and the revelation of the man of sin, who the Lord will destroy at his return. This has not happened yet, but it could in the near future if the church becomes to liberal in it’s stance. Time will tell.

I think that you are partially on the right track but I see the issue of apostasy that is something that continues to happen over time. If you are familiar with Church history you will see that there are several times that the Church has had to fight against heresy, and in particular the Arian heresy.

From this alone I could speculate that we do have the great apostasy with us. I see Islam as a form of apostasy because the people who have abandoned Christianity for Islam are pursuing an image of God that does not measure up to the Gospel. However, those who do follow Islam do believe in God and they do not worship idols.

If you go back and read the Book of Isaiah you can get a clearer idea of what apostasy means within Scripture. It is a turning away or rejection of God. Yes, I agree that this is happening in our own time because thousands upon thousands of Catholics and other Christians do not go to Church. Many of these thousands have turned totally away from the Gospel message as they pursue the New Age, as well as becoming atheist and agnostic. This is the real meaning of apostasy in the Scripture.

Whilst it is true that the liberal element of the Church are trying their hardest to make an impact upon our doctrines, they have not succeeded in this endeavour. Pope John Paul II has remained very firm against their attacks on the Church. The latest that I have seen is a clarification about giving the Eucharist to those who wear the Rainbow Sash. They are being disobedient and therefore they are not entitled to receive the Eucharist. They have put themselves outside of the Christian community. The Rainbow Sash movement, Call to Action and all the other groups are indeed a sign of apostasy within the Church, for these people are not following the will of God, and that means that they are in apostasy.

Every age since the early Christians has had a problem like the one that we have now. So I do not think that there is anything extraordinary about what is happening.

Also, think for a moment. What happened after Jesus gave this discourse? He was betrayed, and everyone turned against Him as they shouted “Crucify Him”, “Crucify Him”. That to me is the great apostasy. Afterwards, you see the tribulation that was brought on Jerusalem and then you see the triumph of the Christians when Rome itself was no longer pagan but had become Christian. Then add to this, that the Romans received punishment for persecuting the Christians when the city was sacked by the Visigoths.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

gladtobe:

In Matthew 24, Jesus was refering to the age the apostles were presently living in and not the final age at the end of the world.

I agree with this point. The generation is a span of 40 years. Within that time we have the sacking of Jerusalem

 

[MaggieOH]

BibleReader:

Hi, Maggie.

The Olivet Discourse had to do with the End Times. How do I know? Well, the discourse begins thusly…

3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and **what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” ****4 **Jesus said to them in reply,…

BR,

How can you be certain that Jesus was speaking about some event that was going to be so far into the future. I do not agree with you on this point. I think that he was definitely referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, just as all my Bible commentaries state.

The age that was coming to an end was that of the Old Covenant. The destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem is the final sign that we have entered into the new age which is the “Age of Grace”

That does not discount the belief that Jesus will come again in glory, but he will do so to judge the living and the dead.

That is why I have sought out the Old Testament typography that points to Jesus Christ, and also to better understand the meaning of the words of Jesus.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Mijoy2:

Wow, this is soooo enlightneing.

Is this parallel a stretch, or is it God’s divine intention?

It is actually a very good point because what BR has done is take what we usually consider as a precursor to the sacrifice and has included a little bit of extra detail that some of us have missed.

The context of the verse given by BR is that Abraham was asked to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac, and because of his faith he was willing to do what was asked. At the moment when Abraham was ready to use the knife, Yahweh intervened and provided a lamb for the sacrifice. The mention of the thorns is something that had not been drawn to my attention before, It really was an excellent point.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Mickey:

Getting back to the thread. I know this has been said before, but it is worth saying again:

Dispensationalism as a religious belief system has it’s origins in the 1830s in England, when one Mr. John Nelson Darby (1800-1880) developed the ideas of various dispensations under which God tested man throughout human history. Side by side with the development of this system was a revelation given to 20- year-old Margaret MacDonald at a prayer meeting, in Port Glasgow Scotland, where she had a vision of the “rapture”. Dispensationalism and the “rapture” were to become intimately connected in an erroneous and novel teaching, unknown in the history of Christianity. The doctrines of Dispensationalism were systematized by Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921) in his “Scofield Reference Sacred Scripture” (Oxford University Press,1909).The Scofield Bible had an immediate impact on what the average Christian believes. Due in large part to Scofield, vast numbers of Christians now hold the view that Christ will return for Christians before the Great Tribulation (rapture), a teaching not held by any significant segment of the church before the mid-1800s.

Mickey,

how familiar are you with the Scofield Bible? I do not own one of them. What I would like to know is whether or not the commentary is slanted such that people are led down the path of believing the Dispensationalist point of view, regardless of what is taught by orthodox Christianity.

MaggieOH

 

[Mijoy2]

MaggieOH:

It is actually a very good point because what BR has done is take what we usually consider as a precursor to the sacrifice and has included a little bit of extra detail that some of us have missed.

The context of the verse given by BR is that Abraham was asked to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac, and because of his faith he was willing to do what was asked. At the moment when Abraham was ready to use the knife, Yahweh intervened and provided a lamb for the sacrifice. The mention of the thorns is something that had not been drawn to my attention before, It really was an excellent point.

MaggieOH

Yes, I agree. There are a great number of these parallels (as I like to call them) that have come to my attention recently. Most noteably from the book “Salvation is from the Jews” by Roy Schoemann. A facinating read at the least; it goes along with the nature of this thread. Having a love affair with Cape Cod and with our Blessed Mother caused my experience to be all the more profound as I read this book.

Again, I pose the question (not looking for an answer necessarily); how many of these parallels are circumstantial, and how many are by intent? Interetsing question in itself.

I wish I could contribute to this thread from a scholarly perspective. But I am a recent revert and am largley scripturally illiterate (relatively speaking). however the more I learn the more I intend to change that.

Thank you for this thread Maggie. I am learning