RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

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Isa_Almisry said:
I’d take issue with the last paragraph (Orthodox).

But the paragraph before it, what gets me is that they are soooo concerned about getting the approval of an institution they call apostate, blasphemous (actully infant baptism is so called in the BM), etc.

So question: if an apostate group, that you say teaches nothing but lies, validates your baptism, doesn’t that invalidate them.😛

As the Fathers say the curses of heretics are blessings and the blessings of heretics curses.

Btw in the Orthodox Church no Mormon is approaching our Table unless he gets wet first.😃
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Amen 😛
 
😉 Isa Almisry posted:
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Originally Posted by Sixtus
Zerinus posted:
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I think it is fair to say that there are substantial differences in other areas. One has only to look at the mass rejection of Catholic doctrine and interpretation of Sacred Scripture by LDS and others, to see that differences are significant, which has implications for the Custodian of Scripture for the Sacraments conferred by those alleging to believe in the same Scripture.
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I could for example set up my own Community, reject everything Catholic Church teaches but then say I believe every word she has written, therefore my ‘power’ to baptise is valid. But if I have effectively excommunicated myself from the teaching Magisterium then surely any authority conferred, is nullified by excommunication.
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LDS in particular but also Mormonism and JW’s from what I have read, has been offensive and derogatory towards Catholic Church at the least and blasphemous at the extreme. How can Rome acknowledge Baptism conferred by a group who commit blasphemy?
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For all her naunces, never have I ever read a single tract, paragraph sentence or phrase where the Catholic Church is offensive towards any non-Catholic group. Maybe there are lessons to be learnt for groups who would want to have the power to baptise, in how to live as well as worship in Christian life.
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I’d take issue with the last paragraph (Orthodox).
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But the paragraph before it, what gets me is that they are soooo concerned about getting the approval of an institution they call apostate, blasphemous (actully infant baptism is so called in the BM), etc.
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So question: if an apostate group, that you say teaches nothing but lies, validates your baptism, doesn’t that invalidate them.
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As the Fathers say the curses of heretics are blessings and the blessings of heretics curses.
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Btw in the Orthodox Church no Mormon is approaching our Table unless he gets wet first.
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Amen 🙂
 
BartBurk said:
Essentially, that’s it. We Catholics need to at least argue from a good understanding of Mormon doctrine. Mormon theology didn’t turn me away from Mormonism as much as finding out the Book of Mormon was completely made up by people in the 19th century (probably Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey and Joseph Smith working together).
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You have absolutely no evidence for that whatsoever. You are at liberty to disbelieve in the Book of Mormon; just as people are at liberty to disbelieve in the Bible (and many do). But you can no more prove that the Book of Mormon is a fabrication, than you can prove that the stories in the Bible are a fabrication.
I don’t see why a Mormon would care that Catholics don’t accept their baptism since Mormons don’t accept Catholic baptism either. As I recall, Hinckley said as much when the Catholics declared Mormon baptism invalid.
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Nobody cares whether the Catholic Church accepts LDS baptism or not. What is of interest to us (at least academically) are the reasons why they have done so (and done so now). The question is why the Catholic Church, which made that decision, chose not to provide an official explanation for their decision, just to stop everyone from guessing? Could it be that they did not really have a viable explanation; and they chose to keep quite about it rather than offer an explanation which they could not afterwards defend? As it happens, all the supposed “reasons” that Catholic apologists have tried to guess at as to why they made that decision, are wrong, illogical, (even hypocritical), and don’t make sense. That is what I have tried to show in my blog. But ultimately, nobody cares that they have made that decision, least of all the LDS Church.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
You have absolutely no evidence for that whatsoever. You are at liberty to disbelieve in the Book of Mormon; just as people are at liberty to disbelieve in the Bible (and many do). But you can no more prove that the Book of Mormon is a fabrication, than you can prove that the stories in the Bible are a fabrication.

Nobody cares whether the Catholic Church accepts LDS baptism or not. What is of interest to us (at least academically) are the reasons why they have done so (and done so now). The question is why the Catholic Church, which made that decision, chose not to provide an official explanation for their decision, just to stop everyone from guessing? Could it be that they did not really have a viable explanation; and they chose to keep quite about it rather than offer an explanation which they could not afterwards defend? As it happens, all the supposed “reasons” that Catholic apologists have tried to guess at as to why they made that decision, are wrong, illogical, (even hypocritical), and don’t make sense. That is what I have tried to show in my blog. But ultimately, nobody cares that they have made that decision, least of all the LDS Church.

zerinus
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I’m sure you won’t accept it because your eyes are blind, but here’s some evidence about Rigdon’s involvement with the Book of Mormon:

mormonstudies.com/criddle/rigdon.htm

One look at the sermons in the Book of Mormon and it is pretty clear they are just rehashes of 19th century Evangelical Protestant sermons. I understand more on that is coming out soon, but if you read Grant Palmer’s book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, you will get a taste of it.

I don’t see Mormonism as any worse than Protestantism. At least Mormons understand that we’re not saved by just declaring, “I believe.” If people live according to Mormon standards they’ll live an o.k. life unless they get an unwanted pregnancy and use the Mormon Church’s liberal abortion standards as their guide. They won’t have as many children as they should because they now approve of artificial means of birth control. When I first joined the LDS Church artificial birth control was frowned upon, but now most Mormons don’t seems to care about that. They might even finally acknowledge that embryonic stem cell research is sinful and maybe even declare they were mistaken in ever accepting polygamy! They believe in the teachings of the everlasting gospel as long as it is convenient for them to do so. I expect they will eventually come to their senses on the matter of the Trinity and reject the doctrine that God the Father was once a man who had a father. They will also declare that Jesus is the Eternal God who always was God. Then maybe the Catholic Church will accept their baptisms just like they accept Community of Christ baptism.
 
But ultimately, nobody cares that they have made that decision, least of all the LDS Church.
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Then why did you start a thread about it if nobody, including you, in the LDS church cares?

:whacky:
 
The question is why the Catholic Church, which made that decision, chose not to provide an official explanation for their decision, just to stop everyone from guessing? Could it be that they did not really have a viable explanation; and they chose to keep quite about it rather than offer an explanation which they could not afterwards defend?
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You have got to be kidding. The Church’s official position and explanation can be found in a response from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith… and I doubt the Church kept this quiet. Probably what happened is that the media didn’t report this response as it has other responses(e.g the recent furor over only our Church having the fullness of the Gospel) because the LDS Church is such a small part of the religious landscape.
 
BartBurk said:
I’m sure you won’t accept it because your eyes are blind, but here’s some evidence about Rigdon’s involvement with the Book of Mormon:

mormonstudies.com/criddle/rigdon.htm

One look at the sermons in the Book of Mormon and it is pretty clear they are just rehashes of 19th century Evangelical Protestant sermons. I understand more on that is coming out soon, but if you read Grant Palmer’s book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, you will get a taste of it.
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If you want to believe this kind of rubbish you are free to do so; but let me assure you that I find it a lot easier to beleive in the Book of Mormon than in this.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
If you want to believe this kind of rubbish you are free to do so; but let me assure you that I find it a lot easier to beleive in the Book of Mormon than in this.

zerinus
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Totally, bleeding obvious. Hang around, the truth will win you over. You’ve increased my prayer life.

There was no “Great Apostasy” despite what only one man in the history of the world said. “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” Was Jesus lying?
 
zerinus said:
If you want to believe this kind of rubbish you are free to do so; but let me assure you that I find it a lot easier to beleive in the Book of Mormon than in this.

zerinus
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Of course you do, zerinus. That’s why you are in darkness, rather than in the light of the True Church, the Holy Catholic Church. There has been too much unbiased, scholarly, documented research regarding the plagiarism, fraud and outright falsehood found in the BOM. Only a TBM would believe otherwise.
 
I am beginning to wonder if one of the posterZ on this site is computer generated…:hmmm:

As I said, he/she/it has definitely improved my prayer life.
 
Well, seeing as how joining another religion gets a mormon excommunicated. And excommunication means a mormon baptism is revoked…what’s the problem?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Well, seeing as how joining another religion gets a mormon excommunicated. And excommunication means a mormon baptism is revoked…what’s the problem?
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Well, the power of Christian baptism comes from God. That is never revoked. Do you have a heart which seeks the truth at any cost? I pray you do. Anyway, you are here for a reason and truth is what we speak. We CANNOT lie for any reason, or we risk our salvation. We are sometimes mistaken, but lying is always a sin. We are called to be charitible as well. Do we fail at times? Of course. That’s why we have reconcilliation. Thank you for posting and we are praying for you.

Christ’s peace to you.
 
po18guy said:
Well, the power of Christian baptism comes from God. That is never revoked. Do you have a heart which seeks the truth at any cost? I pray you do. Anyway, you are here for a reason and truth is what we speak. We CANNOT lie for any reason, or we risk our salvation. We are sometimes mistaken, but lying is always a sin. We are called to be charitible as well. Do we fail at times? Of course. That’s why we have reconcilliation. Thank you for posting and we are praying for you.

Christ’s peace to you.
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I’d say that is why a mormon baptism is invalid, to anyone, mormonism is all based on lies and something based on a lie has no truth in it. I could baptize my dog and have about the same effect.

The revoked baptism is from the POV of a mormon, so that was a response to Zerinus. His church would excommunicate me the minute any mormon ratted out that I had indeed done such a thing. So, my mormon baptism would be revoked in their eyes anyway, so what is it to them if I am baptized somewhere else and whether or not that somewhere else sees my revoked baptism as valid? From their POV I would no longer be baptized anyway.

In short, Zerinus is complaining about a Catholic POV that has no bearing whatsoever to his own beliefs. I don’t even know WHY he would even bother posting about it. it is no problem to him.

From a Catholic POV I understand the “issues”, and were I to join the Catholic church I would want to be baptized as a Catholic, because as it is, the only thing that I find valuable in my mormon baptism is that it was done by my father. But that doesn’t have anything to do with theology, more just a strong sentiment re: someone I love.

But thanks for your prayers. I think I seem more lost than I am. Or maybe was. lol. I am headed into RCIA, and went to a pre-RCIA where Mass was explained and a theological tour of the Cathedral. It was intensely beautiful. 🙂 And I have good conversations with a Catholic friend who will be my RCIA sponsor (hi). 🙂 Life is good and getting better and I am smiling.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I’d say that is why a mormon baptism is invalid, to anyone, mormonism is all based on lies and something based on a lie has no truth in it. I could baptize my dog and have about the same effect.

The revoked baptism is from the POV of a mormon, so that was a response to Zerinus. His church would excommunicate me the minute any mormon ratted out that I had indeed done such a thing. So, my mormon baptism would be revoked in their eyes anyway, so what is it to them if I am baptized somewhere else and whether or not that somewhere else sees my revoked baptism as valid? From their POV I would no longer be baptized anyway.

In short, Zerinus is complaining about a Catholic POV that has no bearing whatsoever to his own beliefs. I don’t even know WHY he would even bother posting about it. it is no problem to him.

From a Catholic POV I understand the “issues”, and were I to join the Catholic church I would want to be baptized as a Catholic, because as it is, the only thing that I find valuable in my mormon baptism is that it was done by my father. But that doesn’t have anything to do with theology, more just a strong sentiment re: someone I love.

But thanks for your prayers. I think I seem more lost than I am. Or maybe was. lol. I am headed into RCIA, and went to a pre-RCIA where Mass was explained and a theological tour of the Cathedral. It was intensely beautiful. 🙂 And I have good conversations with a Catholic friend who will be my RCIA sponsor (hi). 🙂 Life is good and getting better and I am smiling.
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I understand what you are saying about your father’s baptism, Rebbeca J. God bless you. By all means, continue on your Catholic path, you will not believe the riches that will be revealed to you. Sometimes, at Mass, I weep for my unworthyness, that such a gift would be given to me, a sinner.
 
hosemonkey said:
Sometimes, at Mass, I weep for my unworthyness, that such a gift would be given to me, a sinner.
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I have been attending mass for about a year. It wasn’t easy at first, but I stuck with it. At first it really pissed me off. And then I cried at every mass for a while because I felt so damned lost and didn’t think I would ever not feel lost and I was beyond frustrated.

Then there was the mass where the homily and readings were about God and how we all belonged with Him, and I couldn’t stop crying. I just sobbed the whole way through and left during communion because I felt like such a fool. I drove to a park and cried even more. I felt so damaged, down to my soul, and I had never believed that I belonged with God. For the first time in my life I believed that it was possible to be worthy of God, and even today that realization is more than I can comprehend. So I understand how you feel, because I feel that way pretty much all of the time, but more so at mass, even without participating in communion.

I keep moving forward on this “Catholic path” because any other path I have been on has led me to Nothing.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I have been attending mass for about a year. It wasn’t easy at first, but I stuck with it. At first it really pissed me off. And then I cried at every mass for a while because I felt so damned lost and didn’t think I would ever not feel lost and I was beyond frustrated.

Then there was the mass where the homily and readings were about God and how we all belonged with Him, and I couldn’t stop crying. I just sobbed the whole way through and left during communion because I felt like such a fool. I drove to a park and cried even more. I felt so damaged, down to my soul, and I had never believed that I belonged with God. For the first time in my life I believed that it was possible to be worthy of God, and even today that realization is more than I can comprehend. So I understand how you feel, because I feel that way pretty much all of the time, but more so at mass, even without participating in communion.

I keep moving forward on this “Catholic path” because any other path I have been on has led me to Nothing.
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Keep moving forward, keep learning, keep trusting that what you are being taught is true. Jesus and His Blessed Mother hold you in their arms when you are low and discouraged. He is your Friend and Brother, She is your Mother and will let you come to no harm. In the Church there is a place for everyone, from the poorest, to the richest, from those who are not educated and only trust and believe, to those of the highest intellectual achievements. We are granted the most precious gift, that of Jesus Himself in the Holy Eucharist. Stay the course, it is worth waiting for. God bless you, I will pray for you.
 
The Catholic Church can’t comment on every cult and strange sect that comes about, They never commented on LDS baptism because frankly you’re just one of 30,000 Protestants sects to the Catholic Church, they probably never even heard of the LDS Church.

What’s not to get? Traditional Christianity and Mormonism couldn’t be more different, one believes in infinite gods, that humans can become god, that god is flesh and bone and a glorified man, the other belies the scriptures that God is spirit, and there is one God that created everything. One believes that the Trinity is three seperate Gods, while the other believes the Trinity is One God in three persons.

I don’t see the fuss Mormonism is a completely different religion than Christianity. Catholics may as well accept Hindu baptisms in the Ganges if they accept Mormon baptisms.
 
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