I have several degrees in theology and I don’t think I can adequately explain the metaphysical concepts of the Eucharist other than mention accidents and substance. If the OP wants an in-depth explanation she should read Aquinas.
I’m not sure I understand the feeling in this thread that RCIA is a truly necessary step for entring the Church. It wasn’t there in its current form until Vatican II, and AFAIK it wasn’t there at all for centuries. Holy converts such as Bl. John Henry Cardinal Newman didn’t go through it. It’s not required now.
A clarification on the transubstantiation thing: I wasn’t saying I have to understand it. I was complaining that I feel like a lot of the teaching I get confuses the explanations of transubstantiation with the dogma of transubstantiation. Like people will present the Thomistic explanation involving substance and accidents as if that particular explanation was the dogma.
DarkLight, there is no need to share anything you don’t want to share. Much of my past is, as well, one I don’t discuss. I discuss my faith. That is what you can share in your group.
Funny, im a protestant convert and in my current experience, it is just the opposite when it comes to bible studies I have been to as a protestant being about how we feel about the particular verse or passage we are reading. I can recall the phrase “I feel like that verse means…” thrown around a lot at one of the past protsetant bible studies I attended. I recall wanting to get into the scripture on a deeper level all the time, while most the others only wanted to talk about how it “made them feel” or “how it relates to them” Which is all good, but I really wanted to discuss more. But I am only 2 weeks into rcia so maybe that feely stuff will come up later too.Furthermore, are you converting from Protestantism?
I think us former Protestants struggle especially hard with these things because to us any sort of Church teaching or Bible Studies are about hard facts and Scripture, not feelings. We seek fellowship at church, during and after the service, we don’t seek in studies.
At all the Catholic bible studies I’ve been to it’s all been about how we FEEL about Scripture. There is rarely any discussion that focuses on intellect. Mind you, that’s just in MY parish.
Anyway, I think a lot of Protestant converts come in wanting to grow in FAITH and wanting to LEARN. They’re not as interested in the social aspect. Whereas Catholic reverts and/or cradle Catholics seem to be more focused on the community aspect.
Just saying I think this is where the frustration comes in. Expectations and experience have taught us to value different things so RCIA, if it is NOT intellectually based, ends up being a huge disappointment.
Edited to Add: AND most converts from Protestantism who come to RCIA on their own have ALREADY gone through the spiritual journey. Usually they’re hungry for FOOD (intellectual) by the time they reach RCIA. For me I went through all the spiritual stuff a year before I ever signed up for RCIA.
So it was kind of annoying to have to discuss how warm God makes us feel and how nice Jesus was to us.
Right now, nobody really says anything unless asked somthing.None of the Bible Studies at my parish are a “I feel” Or “What it means to me” study. That is called Bible Sharing. I used to attend a Protestant Bible Study and it was just as the poster above described–a sharing session.Funny, im a protestant convert and in my current experience, it is just the opposite when it comes to bible studies I have been to as a protestant being about how we feel about the particular verse or passage we are reading. I can recall the phrase “I feel like that verse means…” thrown around a lot at one of the past protsetant bible studies I attended. I recall wanting to get into the scripture on a deeper level all the time, while most the others only wanted to talk about how it “made them feel” or “how it relates to them” Which is all good, but I really wanted to discuss more. But I am only 2 weeks into rcia so maybe that feely stuff will come up later too.
Correct. If you’re having trouble with a particular RCIA series, you should change parishes rather than try to get through it without attending the sessions.
There are a lot of reasons people come into the RCIA - not everyone is as knowledgeable as you are. We try to tailor our RCIA to the level that the people are at, but if we have someone who knows absolutely nothing about God (their reason for becoming Catholic is cultural rather than religious), we have to keep things pretty basic - and I know that’s frustrating for the more advanced people, but it’s important to make sure the lowest students are able to grasp the content of the lesson. It means that the more advanced students have to be patient sometimes.
This is actually a pretty safe assumption, in most cases. Most people come to RCIA in order to learn what they need to know to become Catholic; not because they already know everything.
I guess…I just have a different idea of “depth” than what many people seem to. I can’t imagine even starting to consider joining any church at all without having a grasp on their basic theology. I feel like I’m being offered the sort of stuff I’d want to know before deciding it was ok to keep going to that particular church on a regular basis, let alone make any moves toward joining it. I just can’t understand why anyone would sign up for RCIA without understanding basic Catholic theology - it seems highly irresponsible to me to do that.
I’m not sure where you’re getting this? I don’t attend the first half of the year of classes because I have a schedule conflict. As I’ve pointed out repeatedly, I am attending Mass regularly (as well as Adoration, which I hadn’t mentioned previously). RCIA is not an intrinsic part of practicing the faith, so I don’t feel that by missing it I’m not being a good Catholic or something. I don’t know what more involvement I could even be doing.
The difficulty is…well, anyone who has a past of abuse knows this. What’s “overly personal” is incredibly varied. Often there is no answer to common questions that isn’t overly personal, because people don’t expect there to have been anything significant or personal happening. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about my religious background at all, because I don’t think there’s any way to do it that doesn’t share stuff that’s too personal - essentially religious abuse. Most people don’t even consider that this might be an issue, because they haven’t experienced this sort of thing.
I’m like that, too, but most people don’t think like that at all - for them, the important things are where they get their money from, their spare time activities, and their kids. A lot of people’s lives revolve around their sports or their hobbies. They don’t think very much about the questions of origin, or God, or morality. They are what they are because of family connections, and to be like their friends.
Okay. I know that you are truly an intelligent person, but you are coming across as condescending toward other people when you are questioning why they are considering becoming Catholic when they obviously do not have the grasp of all things Catholic that you do. “Flippant?” You obviously know way more than some people that teach the RCIA classes, but sometimes you just need to do the research on your own to find the answers that you are seeking. As someone else said, this is a class for the average, middle of the road person that desires to become Catholic. They don’t all have degrees in anything, let alone metaphysics. You are making this into something way more intense than it has to be. I am happy you feel the need to dig so deeply. But you cannot expect everyone to share your intensity. It isn’t what the majority of people taking the class are experiencing. Nor do I feel that your intensity is necessary for all people–only for you. So you are the one that needs to go out into a college campus or make an appointment with a priest, and get the answers you seek. RCIA is not the place for it.
Thanks for the link, I just bought that.
You may have some unusual attitudes about religion. Unusual, meaning not typical. Just letting you know.
Values are not only intellectual. Showing up and participating with other people are also values.
Your schedule conflict appears to be more important to you than showing up for this other thing. That’s a telling bit of information. People say all kinds of things, but what they actually physically do usually tells everything about what they really think deep down.
Is it really so varied? I don’t think so. I don’t see how you can join any religion (except one where joining = sneaking in the back anonymously) without talking about your religious background to some appropriate degree.
Flippantly. Hmm. In some cases, maybe, but mostly I would say, NO. Emphatically no. People don’t take the time & expense to come down once a week, every week, and participate for 6 months or more, just to be “flippant.” That’s not the motivation that the great majority of people in RCIA have. If people come into the program in the fall with odd attitudes, they usually change pretty quickly or they leave. People do leave RCIA programs occasionally before they get to the end.
I’ll be honest - that’s part of what I evaluate when I’m looking at readiness for RCIA candidates. If something else is more important than being at the RCIA class, then maybe the person isn’t quite ready to take on the level of commitment that is required of Catholics in good standing with the Church.
Certainly. This is true for any kind of program one might teach. For instance, I used to be a Lamaze teacher. People who can’t seem to get to classes, because they have reasons to be here or there instead, aren’t really with the program. And they usually aren’t successful at doing Lamaze when crunch time comes. That’s just human psychology. And it’s really all about PRIORITIES. RCIA programs would be amiss if they didn’t take this seriously. The idea of RCIA is to learn to be Catholic, not just to sign up and do a walk-through. Being Catholic has to be PRIORITY #1. There is a lot of commitment to being a Catholic. It’s a choice for life, and as a convert myself, I’m very aware of that.
The Rite was given to us by the Vatican; it’s not something that was just come up with by the local Ladies’ Aid. My understanding is that what comes from the Vatican is required to be used; it’s not optional unless they also mention other options.
It’s not required all the time, but in almost all cases, parishes prefer that people go through it for the very reasons we’re discussing. The fact that it does take some effort and time does tend to filter out people who want to be Catholic on a whim or for the wrong reasons. People still get through it and drop out later, but the mere length and commitment in time does tend to have a reforming or winnowing effect on those few who aren’t very serious at the outset.
Actually, what happens in these cases is an extremely rapid RCIA process - all of the appropriate Rites are completed in the proper sequence, and all in the same single session, followed by the Anointing of the Sick and the Rites appropriate for the dying, also in the same session.
Flippant??? Really??? You’re not being just a wee bit judgmental, are you?