re: islamic claim to the temple mount

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hamba2han said:
Ahhh… yes, Muslim “squatters” in Palestine should never forget that the “Judaeo-Christian God” is the greatest real-estate agent there is in the entire Universe.
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Who was there first? Muslims? nope. Christians berfore them, but after Jews.
 
ralphinal said:
You know Wiccans are a recent creation
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I know, but they like to invent a link back to the first religion.

Back to the point though, the Muslims have every right that others enjoy. They are not foreign invaders, they are local people who have every right to stay in their homeland.
 
LDNCatholic said:
I know, but they like to invent a link back to the first religion.

Back to the point though, the Muslims have every right that others enjoy. They are not foreign invaders, they are local people who have every right to stay in their homeland.
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From a political standpoint, yes. However, to say that the Jews do not have a right to rebuild the Temple on that site, as their claim to it is older and better established through history, is crazy.
 
ralphinal said:
Who was there first? Muslims? nope. Christians berfore them, but after Jews.
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Most of the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel are now Muslims living in various countries outside of Israel.

I would think that simple DNA tests would be able to prove this without much difficulty.

If your great-grandparents owned a piece of real-estate, would you lose the right to inherit the land in the event that you converted to another religion?

Would such a proviso in a title-deed be accepted in a modern court of law anywhere in the West except Israel?

Does such an ancestral title-deed to the land exist in the first place?
 
The city of Jerusalem (and the region) have been vassal to some absentee landlord or another for a couple of millennia. From the Babylonians in 500 BC through the Persians, Greeks/Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, the Muslim Caliphates, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mamluks, throught the Ottoman and the British. It wasn’t until 1967 that a self determining people lived in Jerusalem. Even at the point that the Caliphates, Ayyubids, Mamluks, Ottoman, or Egypt or Jordan ruled the region there still was no seperate national identity.

After the 2nd Jewish Revolt, Hadrian renamed the city Aelia Capitolina and erected a statue of Jupiter and himself after destroying the 2nd Temple.

It was the original qiblah (direction of prayer) for Muslims until Mohammed changed it,

Its the 1st holiest spot in all of Judaism, the 3rd most holy spot in Islam, and it is going to be a real struggling point for the peace process.

A Waqf is still controlling it, and I do not believe Jews currently have access, some for reasons of their own faith.
 
hamba2han said:
Most of the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel are now Muslims living in various countries outside of Israel.

I would think that simple DNA tests would be able to prove this without much difficulty.

If your great-grandparents owned a piece of real-estate, would you lose the right to inherit the land in the event that you converted to another religion?

Would such a proviso in a title-deed be accepted in a modern court of law anywhere in the West except Israel?

Does such an ancestral title-deed to the land exist in the first place?
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The ancestrial claim might hold up if there was documentation for it. Title must be legally exchanged in order to lose ownership. Say your family owned a piece of land. Through the centuries, your family moved from it. When you return, if you can prove that you maintained ownership, you may have a claim. This is a strange case. One side holds that GOd gave them the land. The other says that it is religiously important, but more than that, it was vacant and unused. Now, the spiritual part will not work in court. However, there is something to be said that they owned it before. True, it was unused, but is it fair to say “It is ours now, you are out of luck?”

The best solution is to destroy every structure on there and let no religion claim it. It can then be a empty space to show the only way we can all get along is to sacrafice our own desires so that all can have a little.

As far as the tribes mostly being Muslim now, that is probably true. However a good Jewish person would say that when they left the faith, they lost their share.
 
ralphinal said:
The ancestrial claim might hold up if there was documentation for it. Title must be legally exchanged in order to lose ownership. Say your family owned a piece of land. Through the centuries, your family moved from it. When you return, if you can prove that you maintained ownership, you may have a claim. This is a strange case. One side holds that GOd gave them the land. The other says that it is religiously important, but more than that, it was vacant and unused. Now, the spiritual part will not work in court. However, there is something to be said that they owned it before. True, it was unused, but is it fair to say “It is ours now, you are out of luck?”

The best solution is to destroy every structure on there and let no religion claim it. It can then be a empty space to show the only way we can all get along is to sacrafice our own desires so that all can have a little.

As far as the tribes mostly being Muslim now, that is probably true. However a good Jewish person would say that when they left the faith, they lost their share.
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Or maybe they forfitted it in 1948?

Washington didn’t let the Loyalists who fled to Canada have the land they owned back.
 
LDNCatholic said:
Well didn’t that just backfire on me? 😛 Still. Most of the people called Israelis nowadays are of European descent (correct me if I’m wrong). Most of the Palestinians in the area are ethnically Middle Eastern, who come from that area.
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You’re wrong. 90% or so of Ashkenazi DNA traces them back to Isreal.

There was a recent mDNA study that showed 40% of all Ashkenazi Jews decended from just 4 women in the Levant.
 
scipio337 said:
You’re wrong. 90% or so of Ashkenazi DNA traces them back to Isreal.

There was a recent mDNA study that showed 40% of all Ashkenazi Jews decended from just 4 women in the Levant.
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Solely from Israel? No mixing? I have Ashkenazi ancestry and I am far from Middle Eastern.
 
ralphinal said:
As far as the tribes mostly being Muslim now, that is probably true. However a good Jewish person would say that when they left the faith, they lost their share.
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A “good Jewish person” is only “good” in the eyes of similar-minded Jews as himself… and apparently a fair number of wayward Christians as well.

However, in order to determine whether or not that person is “good” in the eyes of his Creator, then I would suggest that “Judaeo-Christians” refer to the ‘Ten Commandments’ for guidance.

How many of the Commandments are these “good Jewish persons” faithfully adhering to?
 
hamba2han said:
Most of the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel are now Muslims living in various countries outside of Israel.

I would think that simple DNA tests would be able to prove this without much difficulty.

If your great-grandparents owned a piece of real-estate, would you lose the right to inherit the land in the event that you converted to another religion?
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Islam says so. This is a problem in Egypt and elsewhere: two Muslims testify, falsely, that the deceased had become a Muslim, and the family is disinherited, because Islamic law forbids non-Muslims inheriting from Muslims.
Would such a proviso in a title-deed be accepted in a modern court of law anywhere in the West except Israel?
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Yes, the whole Muslim world, if the grandparents were Muslim.
Does such an ancestral title-deed to the land exist in the first place?
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Yes. Consult Genesis.
 
scipio337 said:
Since when has 90% mean “sole”?

Here’s a study on the Y chromosome, shows little genetic drift.

pnas.org/content/97/12/6769

Between Y chromosome and mDNA studies, its shown to be a majority.
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Now now, simple misunderstanding, I thought you meant 90% of Ashkenazi Jews, not on average 90% of DNA.

What percentage of Palestinian DNA originates in that area?
 
hamba2han said:
A “good Jewish person” is only “good” in the eyes of similar-minded Jews as himself… and apparently a fair number of wayward Christians as well.

However, in order to determine whether or not that person is “good” in the eyes of his Creator, then I would suggest that “Judaeo-Christians” refer to the ‘Ten Commandments’ for guidance.

How many of the Commandments are these “good Jewish persons” faithfully adhering to?
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Inconsequential. By “Good Jew” I meant someone who holds to the Jewish ethno-faith. Not someone who complies with it.
 
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