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Karin
Guest
Please not the Supreme Court in the 1980s, that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws.
- Status
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bones_IV
Guest
Eileen T:
On the Pius XI thing, I have to agree. I’m not sure whether the holy father has said this or not. Surely he wouldn’t contradict what another pope said.
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Shoshana
Guest
Well, our late beloved John Paul 2’s best friend all of his life until his death, was a jew.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Nohome:
It’s hard to explain this to Westerners, and maybe I should leave this to someone like SSV who really knows what he’s saying.
Although Judaism isn’t a Race per se, it’s a “People” a “Kadosh” or a “Hoy Kadosh” a people set apart (“A Holy People”) and a religion who belong to the “Nation” of Israel “Am Yisroel”. So, Judaism is a People, a Nation and a Religion, much in the way the Early Church Fathers talk about the Church.
Judaism is Matralineal, which means you get your “Jewishness” from your mother. and, The sign of that Belonging (for boys and men) to the “Hoy Kadosh” or the “Am Yisroel” is Circumcision.
According to the Rabbis, if your mother is Jewish, and you’re circumcised on the 8th day in a “Bris” (for men - women aren’t circumcised), you’re Jewish. The only question is whether or not you’re “Observant”!
This is what’s confusing for those Jews who convert to Christianity. I’ve heard many of them say they “COMPLETED” their Jewishness now that they accepted God’s new covenant in Christ.
What about their children, or grandchildren?
The Rabbis have said that the descendents of those who renounce Judaism (example, become Christians) who do not return to Judaism don’t belong to the Am Yisroel or to the Hoy Kadosh.
I sincerely doubt that Pope JP II’s mother or Grandmother practiced Judaism, circumcised their sons or kept Kosher. That would mitigate against his being Jewish.
I hope this isn’t too confusing. If it is, go find SSV and get him to post something on this.
In Christ, Michael
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spiritblows
Guest
Jewish is a lot more than a religion. It’s an identity. It also encompasses a general set of commonly held ethics and values. Plus, it is a common heritage that can be traced back through one’s linage through one’s parent, and parents’ parents, etc.
Now my folks, they were purly secular. But all Jews celebrate Passover. It’s the most important holiday. There is always someone to lead the ceremony in Hebrew.
One important thing to Jews is education. That is a big thing and one’s education is a huge part of one’s status. A rich Jewish businessman doesn’t have as much status as a doctor or another type of PhD.
Also, a big thing to the Jews I grew up with was hard work and material success. That was a driving force to feeling self worth.
The Jews of my parents’ generation were very insecure because they had grown up with a lot of Anti-Sematism in poor neighborhoods. My mother grew up in a Catholic neighborhood in Queens NY and got taunted and had snowballs thrown at her because they were Jewish. My family really doesn’t like the Catholic Church, although my mother was very respectful of the Catholic Clergy and loved Pope John XXIII. She was dead before I became Catholic. I’ve pretty much been disowned by my father and stepfather who really dispise the Church. But, I can’t blame them they don’t know any better and were taught by their culture to hate the Church.
Now my folks, they were purly secular. But all Jews celebrate Passover. It’s the most important holiday. There is always someone to lead the ceremony in Hebrew.
One important thing to Jews is education. That is a big thing and one’s education is a huge part of one’s status. A rich Jewish businessman doesn’t have as much status as a doctor or another type of PhD.
Also, a big thing to the Jews I grew up with was hard work and material success. That was a driving force to feeling self worth.
The Jews of my parents’ generation were very insecure because they had grown up with a lot of Anti-Sematism in poor neighborhoods. My mother grew up in a Catholic neighborhood in Queens NY and got taunted and had snowballs thrown at her because they were Jewish. My family really doesn’t like the Catholic Church, although my mother was very respectful of the Catholic Clergy and loved Pope John XXIII. She was dead before I became Catholic. I’ve pretty much been disowned by my father and stepfather who really dispise the Church. But, I can’t blame them they don’t know any better and were taught by their culture to hate the Church.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Spiritblows:
Shalom. I tried to describe that. If Catholics read the Early Church Fathers describing the Church, I think this would be easier, because the ECF’s used much of the same language to decribe the Church as the Rabbis to describe the Jewish People or the People of Israel.
Most of what I know comes from hanging around a Middle East board packed with Israelis for some 3 years. I was the guy who posted the names of the people who were killed by Palestinian terrorists. I was posted the description of David and nava Applebaum whn most people wouldn’t touch them - They broke my heart. I came back to the Lord when one of the Rabbis on the forum asked me what I was doing for my spiritual welfare and when I was going to start going to church.
He then stoped posting so he could tend to his congregation in Yesha (West Bank for those who are unfamiliar with the ME). That was the last thing he did on the board.
I can understand your mother - I’m not too sure I’d like people who taunted me and threw snowballs at me either.
Shalom, In Christ, Michael
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bluezone7
Guest
Karin said:
Judaism is not a RACE … it is a religion. It can loosely be called a nation. Well, it is a NATION. There are Chinese Jews, Persian Jews, Kenyan Jews, Ethiopian Jews, German Jews, Dutch Jews, Italian Jews, Spanish Jews, Russian Jews, etc. The last time I checked these people were not the same race or ethnic group … what is the one thing they all have in common besides being human? … Religion. Just because some people take their religion much more seriously than others does not make them a race. The vocab you are using is old … as for example hisorically back in the middle ages some places in Europe would not classify race according to physical phenotype or geographic origin but religion. Personal documents would only state religion … as Mohammedan, Jew, or Christian.
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Forest-Pine
Guest
My only curiosity if this is true is if Pope John Paul II knew of this before his death. I could see it going either way and do not think I am in a position to speculate. However, given the fact that he placed such a focus on Catholic-Jewish dialogue, and made HUGE strides in that regard, to the point where Jews mourned his death, does speak volumes about his love for the Jewish people. It is believable that in his day and time (Nazis about, communism, his entire immediate family dead in his youth) that his ancestry never came up. It is also possible that he thought it would hurt relations with the Jews if he used his ancestry as a type of card to play.
I look at it as such a big deal in a positive way in that it will help to allow Jews to feel even closer to such a beloved saint. Only good could come from that.
I look at it as such a big deal in a positive way in that it will help to allow Jews to feel even closer to such a beloved saint. Only good could come from that.
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spiritblows
Guest
I can definitavely tell you guys that all the Jews that I’ve known, who were Ashkanazi Jews of Central and Eastern European origins, considered themselves to be white people. They were most definately Europeans in appearance, although they did have certain Jewish characteristics in posture and bone structure. There’s just a certain something about Jews, often somewhat hunched over shoulders, and of course many of them have large noses of a certain type. Yes, there are certain Jewish features, even on a blond, blue-eyed Jew.
One thing I have to say about the Jewish people is that they are clever and highly intelligent as a whole. In spite of prejudice against them, they got ahead in America by hard work and self dicsipline, plus having their parents make them feel guilty and obligated. They really have earned the incredible influence they now wield in media and our culture.
One sad thing is that pretty much every Jewish person I’ve met is pro-choice. In spite of the fact that I was adopted, my parents were vehemently pro-choice. They also looked down on other groups as inferior in many ways.
One thing I have to say about the Jewish people is that they are clever and highly intelligent as a whole. In spite of prejudice against them, they got ahead in America by hard work and self dicsipline, plus having their parents make them feel guilty and obligated. They really have earned the incredible influence they now wield in media and our culture.
One sad thing is that pretty much every Jewish person I’ve met is pro-choice. In spite of the fact that I was adopted, my parents were vehemently pro-choice. They also looked down on other groups as inferior in many ways.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Spiritblows:
That might be true - most of the Jewish people I listen to and talk to are religious, that is they’re Observant, or at least they try to be. Some may be Reform, but more are Orthodox. Even my doctor is Orthodox!
That means that, unlike most of the Jewish people you’ve met, most of the people I deal with are Pro-Life.
Would you say that most of the Jewish people you’ve known have been more or less Secular, that is they didn’t attend Synagogue or didn’t keep Shabbas or keep Kosher?
I’ve just found that Secular or non-Observant Jews tend to be “Pro-Choice” more often than not while those who are Religious or Observant tend to be Pro-Life more often then not.
There are actually genetics studies that found the existence of something that’s known as the “Cohen Modal Haplotype” after the Hebrew word for Priest. It’s a Gene transmitted from the mother that occurs in Jewish populations of the world, including Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and the Bene Israel of India. It was esp. common among the Priests at the Temple in Jerusalem on ancient Israel,
khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
med.nyu.edu/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html
aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp
I hope you enjoy the reading. There are other things equally impressive. One of those is the resurrection of Hebrew as an everyday Language.
I’ve just suggested eslewhere on this board that the Church do with Latin what Israel did with Hebrew. That Israel’s successful reinvigoration of Hebrew should provide a template for the Church to be able to revive Latin would be ironic and would help Catholics to appreciate where we came from.
Shalom, In Christ, Michael
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Brain
Guest
if we had known this before JPM died, the rhetorical question “is the pope catholic?” would have been somewhat ironic.
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spiritblows
Guest
Dear Trad Ang
I find this very interesting from your first link:
"A study has shown that a genetic mutation carried by at least a fifth of Jews appears to protect against alcoholism. The same inherited trait is fairly common in Asian people, but is much rarer in white Europeans… The study’s author, Dr Deborah Hasin, from Columbia University and New York State Psychiatric Institute, said: ‘This finding adds to the growing body of evidence that this genetic variation has a protective effect against alcoholism among Jewish groups.’ The mutation, called ADH22, is involved in the way the body breaks down alcohol in the bloodstream… Almost all white Europeans lack the ADH2*2 variation… Past research has shown that the variant is found in 20 per cent of Jewish people. Those with the variant tend to drink less frequently, consume less alcohol overall or have more unpleasant reactions to drink. The new study, published today in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, looked at the relationship between the gene variant and alcoholism among 75 Israeli Jews aged 22 to 65." *
I have to say that I saw very little heavy drinking growing up. I definately think the Jewish people are less prone to alcoholism. I, myself, have tended to gravitate towards drinking as I got older. I found my birth mother’s family and discovered that this was a strong tendency in my birth family, and my birth mother was a heavy drinker. I think genetics play a big role in alcoholism.
I find this very interesting from your first link:
"A study has shown that a genetic mutation carried by at least a fifth of Jews appears to protect against alcoholism. The same inherited trait is fairly common in Asian people, but is much rarer in white Europeans… The study’s author, Dr Deborah Hasin, from Columbia University and New York State Psychiatric Institute, said: ‘This finding adds to the growing body of evidence that this genetic variation has a protective effect against alcoholism among Jewish groups.’ The mutation, called ADH22, is involved in the way the body breaks down alcohol in the bloodstream… Almost all white Europeans lack the ADH2*2 variation… Past research has shown that the variant is found in 20 per cent of Jewish people. Those with the variant tend to drink less frequently, consume less alcohol overall or have more unpleasant reactions to drink. The new study, published today in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, looked at the relationship between the gene variant and alcoholism among 75 Israeli Jews aged 22 to 65." *
I have to say that I saw very little heavy drinking growing up. I definately think the Jewish people are less prone to alcoholism. I, myself, have tended to gravitate towards drinking as I got older. I found my birth mother’s family and discovered that this was a strong tendency in my birth family, and my birth mother was a heavy drinker. I think genetics play a big role in alcoholism.
N
Nohome
Guest
jewfaq.org/judaism.htm
Are Jews a Race?
In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the “Jewish race” or the “Italian race” as well as the “Negro race,” so that is what the legislators intended to protect.
But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.
**But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race. **
Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can’t change your race; it’s in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.
Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).
K
Karin
Guest
Nohome said:
So they are only a religion/faith and Country?
**In regards to race …I guess I better go back to my High School history teacher and tell him that he is wrong…they are not a race
**
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Nohome said:
Nohome:
The Jews call themselves a “People” (“Kadosh” in Hebrew) and talk about the “People of Israel” (“Am Yisroel”) and, with the exception of those who have converted to Judaism or whose ancesters did so within the last couple of centuries, they share some very specific genetic traits with each other as I linked in one of my previous posts.
“Race” is probably incorrect, and is an unfortunate word to use, because the Rabbis don’t use it. But, The Church Fathers used the same language to describe the Church that the Jews used to describe themselves. The ECF saw God as calling out people from the various nations to form a People, a New Israel, a new Holy People.
The Jews are the original Israel, the original Holy People. If you’re not willing to read the ECF about how the Church forms the new Israel, or the Jewish Sages about how the Jews are made the People of Israel and the Holy People of God, you just won’t be able to get this.
I’ve read both, so I got a double dose.
Am Yisroel Chai! The People of Israel Lives!
In Christ, Michael
J
judicame
Guest
This is absolutely wonderful news. Some nay-bobs out there were inclined to cast doubt on JPII’s Jewish gifts but I always thought he looked like Robin Williams but with more pezaz. How super it would be if he were found also to have been a freemason - that would be a great point of dialogue. What surprises could Benedict be saving for us?
“It’s the Catholic Church, Jim, but not as we know it!”
“It’s the Catholic Church, Jim, but not as we know it!”
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Ghosty
Guest
John Paul II having Jewish blood would really be a non-issue either way, IMO. The Catholic Church is not, and never has been, disconnected from the People Israel. In fact, in the Early Church it was clearly regarded by Catholics as the Kingdom of Israel. What’s more, many, if not most, of the people of the Early Church had Jewish blood, as its estimated that millions of Jews became Catholic, upwards of 75% or more of them in fact. What we call Judaism today is the remnant that did not join the prevailing movement of Catholicism. In a way they could be considered the earliest “schismatics”, from a Catholic point of view.
Anyone with doubts about this should just remember the famous Christmas hymn “Veni, Veni Immanuel”. It’s all about how the Church is the Nation of Israel, and how Christ is the promised Messiah. Also recall the Fourth Joyful Mystery of the Rosary.
If John Paul II had Jewish blood, he was simply doing the Jewish thing by devoting himself to the Messiah of Israel. I know for myself that the reason I became Catholic, rather than going all the way into Orthodox Judaism, was because I became convinced that the only thing a good Orthodox Jew who believed Jesus is the Messiah could do is become Catholic. When asked by my Jewish friend why I abandoned my pursuit of Orthodox Judaism, I replied “I didn’t, I followed it all the way to the promised Messiah, just as Maimonides (one of the greatest Jewish rabbis) instructed.”
None of this is to denigrate Orthodox Jews who do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Even the Apostle Paul expressed that they are part of a continued plan of God’s, in his letter to the Romans. We believe that when the Messiah comes again, He will be recognized by all remaining non-Catholic Jewish faithful.
Peace and God bless!
Anyone with doubts about this should just remember the famous Christmas hymn “Veni, Veni Immanuel”. It’s all about how the Church is the Nation of Israel, and how Christ is the promised Messiah. Also recall the Fourth Joyful Mystery of the Rosary.
If John Paul II had Jewish blood, he was simply doing the Jewish thing by devoting himself to the Messiah of Israel. I know for myself that the reason I became Catholic, rather than going all the way into Orthodox Judaism, was because I became convinced that the only thing a good Orthodox Jew who believed Jesus is the Messiah could do is become Catholic. When asked by my Jewish friend why I abandoned my pursuit of Orthodox Judaism, I replied “I didn’t, I followed it all the way to the promised Messiah, just as Maimonides (one of the greatest Jewish rabbis) instructed.”
None of this is to denigrate Orthodox Jews who do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Even the Apostle Paul expressed that they are part of a continued plan of God’s, in his letter to the Romans. We believe that when the Messiah comes again, He will be recognized by all remaining non-Catholic Jewish faithful.
Peace and God bless!
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bapcathluth
Guest
What does this mean? What are you driving at? Are you saying that Jews and Freemasons are comparable?
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spiritblows
Guest
As far as I have read, Robin Williams is of Scottish descent, btw. He is not Jewish.
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Ghosty
Guest
Indeed, Robin Williams is Episcopal, I believe. He’s played Jews, however, and has a tendency to use Yiddish expressions in his humor. I’ve never heard officially that he’s Jewish, only that he had a lot of Jewish friends growing up.
Peace and God bless!
Peace and God bless!
- Status