Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Reformed]

Anglicans are Protestants, just some are more high-church than others and can look and act very Catholic.
Church of Christ and their off-shoot branches: Christian Church, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Lutherans, and Methodists that I know off the top of my head.

Anglicans are not part of the Protetstant Reformations from the 16the Century. The Church of Christ denies behind rooted in Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. I guess you have to study Lutheran theology to decide if they do indeed teach baptismal regeneration. I don’t really believe John Wesley taught baptismal regeneration, but I could be wrong. John Wesley brought Arminianism into Protestantism. If you consider all Christian communites who are not in communion with the Roman Chuch as Protestants, then the Eastern Orthodox Church would be Protestants too.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

Here is information that Methodist do not teach baptismal regeneration.

Methodist preachers were notorious for their enthusiastic sermons and often accused of fanaticism. In those days, many members of the established (Anglican) church feared that new doctrines promulgated by the Methodists, such as the necessity of a New Birth for salvation, of Justification by Faith, and of the constant and sustained action of the Holy Spirit upon the believer’s soul, would produce ill effects upon weak minds. Theophilus Evans, an early critic of the movement, even wrote that it was “the natural Tendency of their Behaviour, in Voice and Gesture and horrid Expressions, to make People mad.” In one of his prints, William Hogarth likewise attacked Methodists as “enthusiasts” full of “Credulity, Superstition and Fanaticism.” But the Methodists resisted the many attacks against their movement. (See John Wesley and George Whitefield for a much more complete discussion of early Methodism.)

John Wesley came under the influence

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodist

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It is very interesting how we understand Scripture, driven by our Christian communities. For the Protestant, a Christian is united to Christ eternally upon conversion before any work is done in Christ. However, not all who profess Christ are actually united to Christ and are the tares and goats inside the visiible church. Protetstants do not believe in baptismal regeneration, that through water baptism you are automatically born from above and united to Christ (john 3, Rom 5). The invisible church are those who are actually united to Christ and by the grace of God through the power of the Spirit, will walk in the works prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:9). They might not even know that are walking in those works when they do them by the power of the Spirit. So, those sheep are living a progressive transforming life in service to God with their entire life, not just what we think are good works. We cannot divide our life in the secular and the spiritual. Our entire life is set apart for God. Here is the verse that you are speaking about. I think your understanding can have a possibility to lead to a works righteousness gospel and salvation (maybe?).

The point of the passage is the deeds, not grace.

I don’t deny the need for grace. Without grace we can’t be saved.

I do deny that we don’t have to respond to the grace. I do deny that this response has nothing to do with our wills.

As the catechism states, God’s free initiative demands our free response.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed;4269981:

It is very interesting how we understand Scripture, driven by our Christian communities. For the Protestant, a Christian is united to Christ eternally upon conversion before any work is done in Christ. However, not all who profess Christ are actually united to Christ and are the tares and goats inside the visiible church. Protetstants do not believe in baptismal regeneration, that through water baptism you are automatically born from above and united to Christ (john 3, Rom 5). The invisible church are those who are actually united to Christ and by the grace of God through the power of the Spirit, will walk in the works prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:9). They might not even know that are walking in those works when they do them by the power of the Spirit. So, those sheep are living a progressive transforming life in service to God with their entire life, not just what we think are good works. We cannot divide our life in the secular and the spiritual. Our entire life is set apart for God. Here is the verse that you are speaking about. I think your understanding can have a possibility to lead to a works righteousness gospel and salvation (maybe?).

The point of the passage is the deeds, not grace.

I don’t deny the need for grace. Without grace we can’t be saved.

I do deny that we don’t have to respond to the grace. I do deny that this response has nothing to do with our wills.

As the catechism states, God’s free initiative demands our free response.

I agree that a response from man is necessary to come to Christ. But, something has to happen before we are able to respond and come to Christ. Please consider what God did for Lydia before she embraced the gospel of grace proclaimed by Paul. Even Paul’s conversion required a mighty act from God prior to believing.

Acts 16

The Conversion of Lydia
11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us

Paul Tells of His Conversion
12 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, [1] ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4270265:

I agree that a response from man is necessary to come to Christ. But, something has to happen before we are able to respond and come to Christ. Please consider what God did for Lydia before she embraced the gospel of grace proclaimed by Paul. Even Paul’s conversion required a mighty act from God prior to believing.

That’s what I just posted.

God’s free initiative demands our free response.

I believe we can resist God’s grace by letting sin separate us from his love and guidance.

I bet this is where we differ.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Anglicans are not part of the Protetstant Reformations from the 16the Century.

They protested a few years later than Luther but they aren’t Catholic!

The Church of Christ denies behind rooted in Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.

The Church of Christ can deny it all they want, but they have their roots in Protestantism, coming out of the Stone-Campbell “Restoration” movement in the 19th century.

I guess you have to study Lutheran theology to decide if they do indeed teach baptismal regeneration.

I was Lutheran for 2 years prior to becoming Catholic - they believe in baptismal regeneration.

I don’t really believe John Wesley taught baptismal regeneration, but I could be wrong. John Wesley brought Arminianism into Protestantism. If you consider all Christian communites who are not in communion with the Roman Chuch as Protestants, then the Eastern Orthodox Church would be Protestants too.

No, Orthodox are not Protestants.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

Here is information that Methodist do not teach baptismal regeneration.

Methodist preachers were notorious for their enthusiastic sermons and often accused of fanaticism. In those days, many members of the established (Anglican) church feared that new doctrines promulgated by the Methodists, such as the necessity of a New Birth for salvation, of Justification by Faith, and of the constant and sustained action of the Holy Spirit upon the believer’s soul, would produce ill effects upon weak minds. Theophilus Evans, an early critic of the movement, even wrote that it was “the natural Tendency of their Behaviour, in Voice and Gesture and horrid Expressions, to make People mad.” In one of his prints, William Hogarth likewise attacked Methodists as “enthusiasts” full of “Credulity, Superstition and Fanaticism.” But the Methodists resisted the many attacks against their movement. (See John Wesley and George Whitefield for a much more complete discussion of early Methodism.)

John Wesley came under the influence

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodist

Well, these days there are many different stripes of Methodist - like they’re trying to keep up with the Baptists or something, . Some affirm baptismal regeneration, some don’t. Doesn’t really matter to most of them what you believe, as long as you love Jesus.

 

[Reformed]

They protested a few years later than Luther but they aren’t Catholic!

The Church of Christ can deny it all they want, but they have their roots in Protestantism, coming out of the Stone-Campbell “Restoration” movement in the 19th century.
I was Lutheran for 2 years prior to becoming Catholic - they believe in baptismal regeneration.

No, Orthodox are not Protestants.

Well, these days there are many different stripes of Methodist - like they’re trying to keep up with the Baptists or something, . Some affirm baptismal regeneration, some don’t. Doesn’t really matter to most of them what you believe, as long as you love Jesus.

I guess all that matters if Jesus, Paul, or John taught baptismal generation. Check out the words of John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

 

[cfrancis]

I guess all that matters if Jesus, Paul, or John taught baptismal generation. Check out the words of John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

So you are saying “with the Holy Spirit” excludes water?
Yet Christ Himself said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (spare me the “of water” means birth, for it reduces our almighty Savior to saying, “in order to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit, one must be born”).
John’s baptism was of water only; the baptism Christ gave us by His example was of water and the Holy Spirit; and then, He gave us the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as in the upper room.
Of all the baptisms of believers in the Bible, is there one where water was not used?

 

[Reformed]

So you are saying “with the Holy Spirit” excludes water?
Yet Christ Himself said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (spare me the “of water” means birth, for it reduces our almighty Savior to saying, “in order to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit, one must be born”).
John’s baptism was of water only; the baptism Christ gave us by His example was of water and the Holy Spirit; and then, He gave us the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as in the upper room.
Of all the baptisms of believers in the Bible, is there one where water was not used?

I think you need to read John 3 in context. The water could mean the physical birth since there is a contrast between between our physical birth and spiritual birth by the Spirit. Or it coud mean

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36

 

[Reformed]

John 3

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized 24 (for John had not yet been put in prison).

25 Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.” [10]

31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[cfrancis]

I think you need to read John 3 in context. The water could mean the physical birth since there is a contrast between between our physical birth and spiritual birth by the Spirit. Or it coud mean

Yes, from all you posted here and in #89, Christ was speaking of regenerational water Baptism! Thank you for making the point clearly!

 

[Reformed]

Yes, from all you posted here and in #89, Christ was speaking of regenerational water Baptism! Thank you for making the point clearly!

We need to consider all of Scripture to underrstand John 3. How many conversions do you see in the NT that people are converted and united through faith… and then they are baptized? Water baptism is an act of obedience done in Christ. It is not the cause of conversion. If you make water baptism the cause of conversion, then your obedience in the flesh is the cause of salvation, and you have much to boast about. In addition, infant baptismal regeneration invades the apparent free will that so many claim on this site. How many Roman Catholics do you know that once were baptized that no longer believe, or show any signs of really knowing God (James 2)? The are inefectual baptisms done in the flesh. It is same with Protestants who do altar calls and sinner’s prayer that have not changed from old creation to new creation in Christ. If the Holy Spirit is not power behind a profession of faith, or baptism… the sinner is left in his sin and treaspasses, remaining in enmity with God. The evidence in what I am saying are the thousands who have done these things of baptism and altar calls, yet they have no real desire for God and His ways

The Words of Eternal Life

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6

 

[cfrancis]

We need to consider all of Scripture to underrstand John 3. How many conversions do you see in the NT that people are converted and united through faith… and then they are baptized?

I agree wholeheartedly - we must take the whole of Scripture. And the whole of Scripture points to regenerational Baptism (OT to NT, from circumcision to baptism). I would amend your last sentence to read “How many conversions do you see in the NT that people are converted and united and baptized through faith?”

Water baptism is an act of obedience done in Christ. It is not the cause of conversion. If you make water baptism the cause of conversion, then your obedience in the flesh is the cause of salvation, and you have much to boast about.

God is the cause of conversion, and we cooperate with His grace (else we are robots, programmed to respond an incapable of true love, or, we are forced to respond as slaves and incapable of true love). To remove our cooperation is to remove God’s love from the process.
The straw man in your statement is that by baptism, we have cause to boast. How so? It is God who imparts His grace, via the Holy Spirit, during baptism. Does the clay, when presented to the potter, boast that it was presented?
And Baptism does not guarantee faithfulnees or even steadfastness.

In addition, infant baptismal regeneration invades the apparent free will that so many claim on this site.

Following your logic, so does feeding, clothing, and cleaning an infant, as well as loving the infant! Poor analogy my friend!
Take the man let down through the roof in Mk 2:
2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.
3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.
4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, **they **let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying.
5 And Jesus seeing **their **faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Jesus does not reference the paralytic, but recognizes “their” faith. And what did the paralytic do? Nothing. Was his free will violated?

Further, as circumcision was entry into God’s family for the Jews, what exactly did the 8-day old boy do? Was his free will violated?

How many Roman Catholics do you know that once were baptized that no longer believe, or show any signs of really knowing God (James 2)? The are inefectual baptisms done in the flesh. It is same with Protestants who do altar calls and sinner’s prayer that have not changed from old creation to new creation in Christ.

Andit is the same for any of your reformed brethren who fall away from the faith. As stated earlier, Baptism does not violate or negate free will; neither does it guarantee faithfulness, steadfastness, or perseverance of the believer.

If the Holy Spirit is not power behind a profession of faith, or baptism… the sinner is left in his sin and treaspasses, remaining in enmity with God.

Who else but the Holy Spirit provides the power of Baptism? Likewise, if the sinner does not choose to persevere and cooperate with God’s grace, God will not force anyone into heaven.

The evidence in what I am saying are the thousands who have done these things of baptism and altar calls, yet they have no real desire for God and His ways

And the number of reformed believers who have done the same. But as you deny free will, your conclusions, though wrong, are understandable.

 

[Among_Strangers]

I think we some coordination. We were in Philippians ch 2 or 3 then Matt 25 Now John 3 … Sorry, I am lost

 

[cfrancis]

I think we some coordination. We were in Philippians ch 2 or 3 then Matt 25 Now John 3 … Sorry, I am lost

good point AS Back to Phil 2!

 

[mikeledes]

If I understand what you believe, only those whom God has given the gift of final perserverance will entery glory and final justification (Heaven)? I believe you are saying that those in Heaven or will be have been given a special grace of final perserverance, correct? What makes that any different than Calvinists who believe in sovereign grace given to the elect? And if God knows whom He will grant the grace of final perserverance, why would he justify sinners whom will not receive the gift and grace of final perserverance, because without that grace given to God’s elect only, nobody else will perserve to the end. Does that make sense? Do you see the conflict?

The Catholic Church teaches that there is an unequal distribution of grace. Only to the elect will God give the gift of final perseverence. So in that we are in agreement with Calvinists. However, we do not believe that justifying grace is limited to the elect.

Why would God give justifying grace to those whom he will not give the gift of final persverenace? The same reason why He would create Satan a good angel knowing he would fall and cause so much evil. The same reason why He created Adam with original rigteousness and then allowed him to fall into sin. In other words, all of these are examples of the inscrutable judgements of God. What does not make sense to us or is illogical, makes sense to God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It is very interesting how we understand Scripture, driven by our Christian communities. For the Protestant, a Christian is united to Christ eternally upon conversion before any work is done in Christ. However, not all who profess Christ are actually united to Christ and are the tares and goats inside the visiible church. Protetstants do not believe in baptismal regeneration, that through water baptism you are automatically born from above and united to Christ (john 3, Rom 5). The invisible church are those who are actually united to Christ and by the grace of God through the power of the Spirit, will walk in the works prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:9). They might not even know that are walking in those works when they do them by the power of the Spirit. So, those sheep are living a progressive transforming life in service to God with their entire life, not just what we think are good works. We cannot divide our life in the secular and the spiritual. Our entire life is set apart for God. Here is the verse that you are speaking about. I think your understanding can have a possibility to lead to a works righteousness gospel and salvation (maybe?).

Matt 25

The Final Judgment

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Just a correction. The first Protestants (Lutherans) believe in baptismal regeneration.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

And the number of reformed believers who have done the same. But as you deny free will, your conclusions, though wrong, are understandable.

Out of curiosity, how are we defining free will? If this belongs in a different thread feel free to ignore it.

 

[mikeledes]

As Catholics, I think we need to be careful not to take free will to the extreme, making it absolute. While the Catholic Church teaches that God involves free will in accomplishing His plan of salvation, which distinguishes us from Calvinists, His plan of salvation does not depend on the free will of man, which distinguishes us from Arminians. We affirm the truths of predestination and free will. However, those elect for glory are not elect simply because God foresaw that they would chose Him. That’s Arminianism. This makes free will absolute and God a mere spectator and rubber stamp, diminishing His sovereignty. In Catholic predestination, God is actively involved in ensuring that those whom He predestined to glory will be called, justified, and glorified. And yet we believe He infallibly accomplishes this and still able to involve the free will of man. So its not predestination (Calvinism) versus free will (Arminianism). As Catholics, we say its both.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[tGette]

As Catholics, I think we need to be careful not to take free will to the extreme, making it absolute. While the Catholic Church teaches that God involves free will in accomplishing His plan of salvation, which distinguishes us from Calvinists, His plan of salvation does not depend on the free will of man, which distinguishes us from Arminians. We affirm the truths of predestination and free will. However, those elect for glory are not elect simply because God foresaw that they would chose Him. That’s Arminianism. This makes free will absolute and God a mere spectator and rubber stamp, diminishing His sovereignty. In Catholic predestination, God is actively involved in ensuring that those whom He predestined to glory will be called, justified, and glorified. And yet we believe He infallibly accomplishes this and still able to involve the free will of man. So its not predestination (Calvinism) versus free will (Arminianism). As Catholics, we say its both.

God Bless,
Michael

Well said!

I got a new thought on how to explain what the heck I have been trying to explain:

God can MAKE (FORCE) things to happen without compromising our free will. For instance. I am choosing to drive my car, but God could, hypothetically, cause my car not to start and it take me a few minutes to get it running. This few minutes caused me to miss a huge accident down at the first traffic light.

Another example, someone goes to shoot someone to kill them, but God sends a guardian angel to intervene and the person’s life is saved.

In both examples God intervenes and no one’s free will is compromised. (Keep in mind these are obviously hypothetical situations, though I am sure God has done things like this many a times.)

This coincides with the Calvinists idea that God “predestines” certain elect people to be saved. So if there is a person who God deems worth of Heaven and they are in a situation in their life that might cause them to die before receiving salvation, God will work in the world to make sure that person comes to know Him before death.

This still does not mean we do not contribute in salvation history. Of course it is by the grace of God anything is possible. It is the grace of God that even allows someone to sin in the first place. Our free will is our cooperating with God’s grace according to His will instead of against His will. By our doing this (evangelizing, prayer, tithing, etc.) we bring the Gospel message into the world. Well…God brings the Gospel message into the world through our choosing to want to do His will!

I am starting to understand more the Calvinist understanding of "double predestination and why it makes sense to them logically. I am not saying I agree with it, but when you try to rack your brain around how God works in the world, I can see how someone would come to that conclusion. I deny this conclusion, simply because it is a philosophical theology which came WAY after the time of Christ’s time on earth. I accept only that which was believed from the get go.

Though…no Calvinist has explained more in detail how “double predestination” still actually allows for freewill. I would love to be enlightened! (Reformed…you are my target audience, though I want any Calvinist to respond.)

 

[Reformed]

Let’s go back to the scriptures. Additional comments are requested.

Philippians 2-3

Christ’s Example of Humility
2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [1] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [2] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

Timothy and Epaphroditus
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you. 20 For I have no one like him, who will be genuinely concerned for your welfare. 21 For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know Timothy’s [3] proven worth, how as a son [4] with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23 I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24 and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also.

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ
3:1 Finally, my brothers, [5] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God [6] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [7] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.