Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Reformed]

I was thinking the exact same thing. The Bible isn’t a gun rack, full of verses we can take out (of context) to shoot at each other with.

Thanks for joining us. Let’s all try to discuss the contents of the Scriptures in the proper context of the entire Scriptures. We can use other verses to support our comments and understanding. We should all try hard not to side track this thread with personal comments that derail our bible study. I’m glad you decided to participate.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

God the Holy Spirit works through these fallible men in creating the Holy Scriptures. Are you implying the Word of God is fallible? The author of Scripture is God. Does the Roman Catholic Church teach that the Scriptures are not God-breathed?

I don’t think you understood what the original poster was saying. He was saying that if God can work through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, he can work through Benedict XVI. We all agree that the Gospels are infallible.

Protestants often misunderstand papal infallibility as Catholics claiming that the Pope is a perfect man. We’re not. We’re saying he’s a channel through which the Holy Spirit communicates. And he serves as a sort of lens: in the same way that St. Paul and St. James have different ways of describing the Divine Truth (b/c their writing styles are different), the same can be said of the various Popes writing. Catholics (generally) don’t take a hyper-legalistic interpretation of Scripture, where a given word means necessarily the same thing every time it appears (the use of the word “faith” in Paul’s writings, vis-a-vis James’, e.g.). In this sense, Scripture is both fully human and fully divine. But the humanity of the text (even so far as St. Mark’s poor grammar) doesn’t detract from the divinity of the text (as apparent through the myriad subtle Christian predictions made in the OT, for example).

But on the basis of the “perfect man” misunderstanding* of papal infallibility, lots of Protestants say things like, “look at what a sinner this Pope was! He’s not perfect!” Which would be like saying to any Christian, “how can you trust Matthew’s Gospel? He was a greedy tax collector!”, or “But St. Peter denied Christ, and St. Paul rebuked him in Galatians 2! How can his writings be infallible?” You get the idea.

So the original poster wasn’t saying the Gospels weren’t divinely inspired, but using them as an example to show the fallible people God works through infallibly. Hope that made sense.

–

*I’ll admit that this confusion is caused in large part by such a strange term - even Cardinal Newman was confused prior to Vatican I exactly what the papal infallibility proponents were actually affirming, until he read the documents.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Can you guys at least understand why Protestant Christians discern the Roman Catholic good news to be one of personal merit and personal good works for justification. In contrast, we (Protestants) understand Scripture revelation teach that our justification is based soley on the merit and good works of Christ alone. We are awarded for our personal works done in Christ as a reward, but our works are never the basis for our justification. I have seen a consistent pattern of Roman Catholics manipulating Phillipians Phil. 2:12 to support a gospel of personal works and merit as a basis for our justification. This perspective gives man a reason to boast before God and man. Are you saying that your justification is based on 50% of the merit of Christ and 50% of your personal merit done in Christ? I’ll post this passges used in two different ways.

The Roman Catholic usage:

Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The Protestant understanding of the same passage:

Philippians 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

C.S. Lewis argues convincingly that this isn’t an either/or, but I’m totally blanking on what book he explains this in.

If Catholics only believed the first half - that we’re left on our own to work out our own salvation, that would be works-righteousness. Works-righteouness, is, after all, monergism, albeit in reverse. Calvinists tend to read only the part you have in red, and arrive at monergism as the term is typically used, but there’s no reason for Paul to even write 2:12, if God’s going to do all the work on His own (I’m not saying He couldn’t; I’m saying He doesn’t want to).

The actual Catholic view is one of sola gratia - that our free wills are capable of accepting God only because through the power of His Grace - the “will” from the red text. The International Standard Version paraphrases 2:13 as: “For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.” But remember that it’s not irresistible (otherwise Paul wouldn’t have to tell them to listen to this impulse in 2:12).

So we’re left with a choice: we can either do what God wants us to do (and has given us the tools to do), or we can reject Him. This is classic synergism.

(Also, is this the right format? I mean, am I doing what we’re supposed to be doing here, or am I getting us off topic?)

 

[guanophore]

This is my sincere attempt for Christian unity. We all believe that it is profitable for Christians to mediate on the Word of God together. Please prayfully consider my invitation in the OP.

Well, I have prayerfullly considered your invitation in the OP.
If this is as sincere as you can be, we are all in big trouble.

You seem awfully quick to judge the motives of others in your “sincerity”.

If you guys don’t join us in reading the Bible together, I will have to conclude that Roman Catholics are very intimidated in reading the Scriptures. Are you afraid that if you read the Bible on your own, you will transform into a Protestant?

No, but I am afraid that what you are pandering here is just deception and prejudice. It seems clear that you don’t considere yourself “together” with Catholics, whether we study scripture together or not. On another thread you posted this:

The church is made up of all sinners who have been united to Christ. It is mutually exclusive from the Roman Catholic denomination.

What this statement says is that members of the Roman Catholic denomination are not part of the Church of Christ. Being Catholic, apparently is mutually exclusive with being a person united to Christ.

On that thread is another dishonest statement:

Please join us as fellow Christians in an interdenominational bible study. May God be glorified as we search the Scriptures together as God’s adopted children.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731

Clearly you do not believe that Catholics are God’s adopted children, so it is an insincere invitation. Here is a little sample of your “interdenominational Bible Study”:

Galatians 2:9
James, Peter (Cephas), John, and Paul were Apostles who taught biblical truth. Just because you read the word “church” in the bible, does not mean that the Bible is speaking of the “Roman Catholic Church”.

In fact, the Bible did not exist when this was written, so the notion that they were teaching “biblical truth” according to Reformed theology (which did not appear for 1500 years) is absurd.

I think your 'sincerity" is awfully shallow, and it seems pretty clear to me that your invitation, as well as you motives, are disingenous.

I have not participated in your “bible study” because I find it a thinly veiled smokescreen by which you will achieve your goals to register your objections against Catholicism, which, for the record, is not “Roman”. :tsktsk:

 

[Reformed]

Philippians 2-3

Christ’s Example of Humility
2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [1] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [2] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

Timothy and Epaphroditus
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you. 20 For I have no one like him, who will be genuinely concerned for your welfare. 21 For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know Timothy’s [3] proven worth, how as a son [4] with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23 I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24 and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also.

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ
3:1 Finally, my brothers, [5] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God [6] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [7] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Let’s all try to comment of the above Bible passages.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Let’s all try to comment of the above Bible passages.

Nothing there I disagree with.

Do you have a point?

 

[Reformed]

Nothing there I disagree with.

Do you have a point?

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

What do you think of this passage? Do you think Paul is teaching that the righteousness from God is sufficient for us and found outside of ourselves?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

What do you think of this passage?

I think it sounds great.

The Jewish law is no longer necessary. Now we must follow Christ.

We must pick up our cross and follow.

Sounds very Catholic, ie. Christian, to me.

 

[Reformed]

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

What do you think of this passage? Do you think Paul is teaching that the righteousness from God is sufficient for us and found outside of ourselves?

Hi CHESTERTONRULES,

Do you mind answering my last question?

Here is the question and bible passage again.

Do you think Paul is teaching that the righteousness from God is sufficient for us and found outside of ourselves?

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Hi CHESTERTONRULES,

Do you mind answering my last question?

Here is the question and bible passage again.

Do you think Paul is teaching that the righteousness from God is sufficient for us and found outside of ourselves?

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

I absolutely believe that the Grace of God is found outside of ourselves.

However, I don’t believe that we have no responsibility to respond.

 

[Reformed]

I absolutely believe that the Grace of God is found outside of ourselves.

However, I don’t believe that we have no responsibility to respond.

Hi CHESTERONRULES,

I can agree with your posting. According to Paul in the light of the passage below, the righteousness that is not our own comes by faith or by the sacraments? According the the passage below, does this alien righeousness from God depends on faith or the sacraments?

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s all try to comment of the above Bible passages.

2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Being in full accord means to be in unity with the Apostolic faith. I know you do not agree that the Catholic faith is the Apostolic faith, and you probably don’t agree that Paul was a Catholic.

I have only seen insincere comments from you on this thread and elsewhere about "being of the same mind’ and the study of scripture together. I say they are superficial because you have already stated that Catholics are not part of the christ’s church.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I can agree with your posting. According to Paul on the passage below, the righteousness that is not our own comes by faith or by the sacraments? According the the passage below, does this alien righeousness depends on faith or the sacraments?

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Faith is crucial, but if we have faith we will want to follow the teachings of Jesus, which include sacramental worship.

Why would someone with faith reject the teachings of Jesus?

Is faith without works dead?

 

[Reformed]

Faith is crucial, but if we have faith we will want to follow the teachings of Jesus, which include sacramental worship.

Why would someone with faith reject the teachings of Jesus?

Is faith without works dead?

It appears you are arguing with Paul with your comments.

 

[guanophore]

Do you think Paul is teaching that the righteousness from God is sufficient for us and found outside of ourselves?

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

I think you are asking this question because you erroenously believe that Catholics “work” their way to heaven, or somehow believe they “merit” heaven by their own righteousness. This is not the Catholic faith. What Paul has written here is the Catholic faith. That is because Paul is Catholic!
Reformed;4281734:

Hi CHESTERONRULES,

I can agree with your posting. According to Paul in the light of the passage below, the righteousness that is not our own comes by faith or by the sacraments?

You are trying to create an artificial separation where one does not exist. We access grace through faith in the sacraments because Jesus set it up that way. It is not “faith/or sacraments”

I think you imagine that sacraments are some sort of “work” that we do, by which we think we ‘earn’ grace.

According the the passage below, does this alien righeousness from God depends on faith or the sacraments?

Sacraments do depend upon faith. I wonder if you really know anything about sacraments or if you are just spouting the errors that you have been taught.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It appears you are arguing with Paul with your comments.

Oh really?

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

2 Thes 3

15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thes 3

6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

 

[Reformed]

Oh really?

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

2 Thes 3

15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thes 3

6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Thanks for posting Scriptures by the Apostle Paul. I don’t think you posted anything that would support the 7 Roman Catholic sacraments as they key to salvation. In contrast to the sacramental way of salvation, I think Paul has an extremely high view of salvation by faith… to the point of teaching grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone. I think Paul only discussed two sacraments, but viewed these two sacraments different than Roman Catholic theology. Consider Paul’s thesis statement of his most important Epistile.

Romans 1:16-17

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Phil 2

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Gal 2

Justified by Faith

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified [1] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [2] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Ephesians 2

By Grace Through Faith

2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Do you understand why I write that I don’t think Paul taught Roman Catholic theology?

 

[Reformed]

By Faith is the key to Christian living that pleases God.

Hebrews 11

By Faith
11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.

29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.

32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [1] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Thanks for posting Scriptures by the Apostle Paul. I don’t think you posted anything that would support the 7 Roman Catholic sacraments as they key to salvation.

I think that ChestertonRules was saying that Paul’s writings were described by Paul as being less than comprehensive. So to say you only find 2 of the 7 Sacraments in Paul’s writings isn’t really dispositive: you also don’t find things like the Virgin Birth. If you were to read only St. Jude, you’d miss most Christian doctrines. All seven Sacraments are found in the New Testament (a better standard), and all are affirmed by the early Church, who had both Scripture, and the oral traditions that Paul talks about passing down (so an even better standard). All three are Divinely-inspired, but they’re like concentric circles.

So it seems to me that you’re making at least three mistakes: (1) supposing that Catholics teach salvation through the Sacraments alone; (2) relying only on the written word; (3) relying only on St. Paul.
Reformed;4282049:

In contrast to the sacramental way of salvation, I think Paul has an extremely high view of salvation by faith… to the point of teaching grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone. I think Paul only discussed two sacraments, but viewed these two sacraments different than Roman Catholic theology.

Paul teaches salvation by Grace alone, but you won’t find the term “faith alone” in any Bible, unless you’re using one Martin Luther translated. He intentionally added “alone” to Romans 3:28, in violation of Biblical warnings against such practices.

The problem in Protestantism can best be described by the “Blind Men and the Elephant” parable:

Six blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant’s body.

The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe.

A wise man explains to them, “All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned.”

So you can point out the necessity of Grace, and of faith, and Catholics will just agree. But when you start adding “alone” to the text, that’s where we’ll stop you - just like if one of those blind men had said that elephants were “pillar-like alone.” When you start saying “alone” where the Bible doesn’t teach it, you’re beginning to affirm one part of Scripture against another.

Consider Paul’s thesis statement of his most important Epistile.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Have you considered how one lives by faith? As in, what that looks like?
St. Paul doesn’t teach faith *alone. *In fact, he says in 1 Corinthians 13:2, “if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

St. James teaches that even the demons have “faith alone” (James 2:18-20), and that:

**James 2:24 **

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Sola fide is explicitly and unambiguously contradicted by Scripture.

The support for it is made possible only by distorting Biblical texts, even to the point of adding the word “alone,” either to the text or the little headings over the passage (to colour the passage improperly).

With that in mind:

Phil 2:7-11
Gal 2:15-21
Ephesians 2:1-10

While Paul is saying we’re justified by faith, remember that faith without works is dead (James 2:26). So to be justified by faith, you need faith AND works. That’s the wise man’s answer from the parable. Scripture rejects either half in isolation. Or are you imagining that Paul and James disagree?

(Also: we both agree that when Paul says “works of the Law,” he means the
Mosaic Law, correct? That he isn’t saying Christians don’t have to imitate Christ, he’s saying that they don’t need to be circumcised, etc. Most of the “works of the Law” relevance is minimal today, except for converts from Judaism.)

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Do you understand why I write that I don’t think Paul taught Roman Catholic theology?

Since you mean this in regards to the Sacraments, I’ll try and restrict my answer to that:

St. Paul calls the Church the Bride of Christ, and says we need “water *with *the word” to be cleansed:

**Ephesians 5:25-27 **Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

So it’s not Scripture or the Sacraments (blind man and the elephant again)… it’s Scripture AND the Sacraments. Even Wesley’s commentaries on this passage acknowledged the cleansing waters as Baptismal. And this passage, as well as lots of others, lay out marriage as a sacrament and a covenant.

St. Paul says of the Eucharist:

**1 Corinthians 11:23-28 **For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “**This cup is the new covenant in my blood; **do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

So, still assuming this sola Pauline box, not acknowledging Christ in the Eucharist is damnable (for those who partake in it).

And if we assume that St. Paul wrote Hebrews:

**Hebrews 9:18-22 **This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “**This is the blood of the covenant, **which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

In this paraphrasing, the author has connected the words of Moses in Exodus 24:8, with the words of Jesus at the Last Supper (particularly, Matthew 26:28), re-centering the atonement, and the second covenant, around the literal Eucharistic Blood, which the author asserts is ***literally needed ***for atonement.

Here’s why this passage is important: Jesus’ Blood is efficacious because it was offered as a sacrifice - had (for example) He just been randomly murdered, that wouldn’t have be efficacious, any more than you could offer (under the Judaic system) already dead animals to God as sacrifice. For the sacrifice to work, you have to first offer it up, put it on the sacrificial table, and the atoning killing begins. In this view, the author of Hebrews is pointing to the Last Supper (and Moses’ sprinkling of the Blood) as the crucial point that ties the Passion to the New Covenant, allowing us salvation (note: he’s not saying you can have the Last Supper without the Passion… but that you need both).

So the Pauline epistles (inc. Hebrews, which may or may not be), especially when taken in conjunction with the Book of James, lay out a clear story of faith plus works, the necessity of Baptism for cleansing, a Holy and Perfect Church (Eph 5, again), Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, the importance of God-given Tradition in addition to written Scripture, etc. Can you see why I think that St. Paul (and more importantly, Jesus) do teach Roman Catholicism?