Reading Scripture together as Christians

[mikeledes]

I think this is the very heart of our division. Within the doctrine of justification, does God impute (count; credit) Christ’s righteousness to us, or does He not? I do not have issues with infused grace for sanctification. Please explain the Catholic view of Christ’s righteousness and how it applies to a Catholic within justification? Romans 4 is my understanding of imputation (credited with the righteousness of Christ) through faith for our justification.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [2] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

For those who want to study the issue of our division, here is a link on justification.

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Justification/

For those who want to study the Catholic response to this, and how imputation means infusion, here is a link on justification:

pugiofidei.com/logizomai.htm

BTW, I thought links were not allowed.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I hope everyone understands that the central issue that divides us is the same issue that caused the Protestant Reformation. We all agree that Roman Catholicism cannot change in doctrine. Therefore, the positiion of the Roman Catholic Church on the doctrine of justification is the exact same position she had 500 years ago. The Protestant Reformers left to Catholic Church because they understood justification through imputation and as a forensic understanding. We are not debating anything new. The only reason why you think I am been divisive is simply that some Protestants have left the position of the orginal Reformers due to ignorance of historic Protestantism.

For those who understand our division of justificaiton, which is the heart of the gospel… I hope you will continue on this thread. Our mutually exclusive views on justification leaves us with different gospels. What else can I say, because we are commanded by God to proclaim and defend His gospel. We have enmity on this thread because we proclaim two different gospels to the world.

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice - Phil 1

Since we do have a different understanding of justification, I think we need to understand the terminology and concepts we use. I have a couple of questions that I hope you will answer:

1. You believe that sanctifying grace is infused. Why does God infuse us with sanctifying grace? What’s the purpose?
2. Is this infusion necessary for salvation and why?
3. Is acquittal and imputation of Christ’s righteousness the same thing or two distinct aspects of justification?

Thank you in advance.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

Since we do have a different understanding of justification, I think we need to understand the terminology and concepts we use. I have a couple of questions that I hope you will answer:

1. You believe that sanctifying grace is infused. Why does God infuse us with sanctifying grace? What’s the purpose? For His own glory and our transformation.
2. Is this infusion necessary for salvation and why? Salvation is by the grace of God alone through faith alone… to His glory alone. Therefore, God is changing us by His power and might. Salvation is of the Lord.
3. Is acquittal and imputation of Christ’s righteousness the same thing or two distinct aspects of justification? Are you asking if Paul uses justification differently than James?
   Thank you in advance.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

mikeledes, Ryan, and all others who want to give an honest answer.

Why do you think God saves sinners in the first place? I don’t think it is a man-centered reason as the primary reason. I think the answer can be found in Ephesians 1 and 2. There is a reason why God saves His enemies, changing us from vessels of wrath to vessels of mercy. What is the God-centered reason He does this amazing act?

 

[ryanoneil]

First, is the distinction between grace and law which has been mentioned so many times I won’t repeat it.

Second, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, and Titus 3:5-7 tell us that justification is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul, and it is a supernatural reality. So, having this begining of the life in Christ, no righteous deeds done before justification could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation though.

**"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. . .Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. . . Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. (Matt 5:3,5,8) **

These are internal dispositions, not just an external reality.

Here are the last 3 chapters of Philippians. Let’s honor the Word of the Lord and comment on these three chapters. When we are done, we can move to another letter of Paul. Please comment on the verses below.

Philippians 2-4

Christ’s Example of Humility
2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Faith justifies initially, but good works perfect and complete our justification. Above is an example of justification as ongoing (not a one-time event).

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)

[1] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [2] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

God exalted Jesus because of his humble obedience.

Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

God is actually in work in us. God is so powerful, he can actually transform us by working in us. He is not just outside us making declarations about us.

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5:20)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. (John 3:36)

Because you have kept my message of endurance, I will keep you safe in the time of trial that is going to come to the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Rev 3:10)

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

Paul isn’t talking about being a snow covered dung heap. He is talking about a real interior condition.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. (Matt 5:6)

The Lord said to him, "Oh you Pharisees! Although you cleanse the outside of the cup and the dish, inside you are filled with plunder and evil. You fools! Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside? (Luke 11:39-40)

Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile." (Mark 7:15)

 

[ryanoneil]

mikeledes, Ryan, and all others who want to give an honest answer.

Why do you think God saves sinners in the first place? I don’t think it is a man-centered reason as the primary reason. I think the answer can be found in Ephesians 1 and 2. There is a reason why God saves His enemies, changing us from vessels of wrath to vessels of mercy. What is the God-centered reason He does this amazing act?

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Eph 2: 4-5)

he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved. (Eph 1:5-6)

Now back to Phillipians

 

[Reformed]

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Eph 2: 4-5)

he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved. (Eph 1:5-6)

Now back to Phillipians

I’m not sure where we can go from here? We know God does everything for His own glory. We were saved to the praise of his glorious grace. We were saved to glorify Him. Therefore, God will finish the work that He started for His own glory and name sake. Salvation is centered on the glory of God, therefore it is impossible for God to fail in this glorious act of saving His vessel of mercy. God is actually glorified according to scripture in pouring out His wrath on His vessels of wrath. That is biblical revelation and biblical theology. There’s nothing left but to praise God for his glorious act of saving wretched sinners. I know Roman Catholics cannot praise Him this way because that are unable to see themselves actually redeemed, purchased, saved and adopted from an eternal perspective. Do you see why this is so important, because our praise of Him is tied in with His act of redemption through His Son. Actually, Roman Catholic theology doesn’t allow you to praise Him for His glorious grace until you are on the other side of glory… because you have no idea if you will be saved.

 

[Reformed]

Ephesians 1-2

Greeting
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 **to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. **7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

By Grace Through Faith
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [7] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [8] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, [9] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by [10] the Spirit.

 

[Crystal_H]

. I know Roman Catholics cannot praise Him this way because that are unable to see themselves actually redeemed, purchased, saved and adopted from an eternal perspective. Do you see why this is so important, because our praise of Him is tied in with His act of redemption through His Son. Actually, Roman Catholic theology doesn’t allow you to praise Him for His glorious grace until you are on the other side of glory… because you have no idea if you will be saved.

What are you talking about? Blah blah blah. again you do not understand CATHOLIC (not just Roman but also Melkite, Ruthenian and various other Eastern Catholics believe. BY THE WAY… Look closely… MAGISTERIUM… is the correct spelling.

YOU ARE A FRAUD. YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD REPETITIVELY THE YOUR SOLE USE OF “ROMAN” IS INSULTING. You are now on my ignore list.

 

[Reformed]

What are you talking about? Blah blah blah. again you do not understand CATHOLIC (not just Roman but also Melkite, Ruthenian and various other Eastern Catholics believe. BY THE WAY… Look closely… MAGISTERIUM… is the correct spelling.

YOU ARE A FRAUD. YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD REPETITIVELY THE YOUR SOLE USE OF “ROMAN” IS INSULTING. You are now on my ignore list.

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

How can you praise and glorify Him for your salvation if you do not have faith (complete trust) that God will finish the work that He started in you? As conveted Chrisitians, apart from the sustaining grace of God…all Christians would apostate in their own power. But through the amazing grace of God…to the praise of glorious grace…we can enter the rest found in Christ alone and the finished work as it is being applied to us from day to day. Our confidence is in God and not in ourselves. It is impossible for God to lie; therefore, hold on to those precious promises because we know that faith pleases God. The justified shall live by faith to the praise of His glorious grace!

 

[mikeledes]

Reformed:

For His own glory and our transformation.

Why must we be transformed?

Salvation is by the grace of God alone through faith alone… to His glory alone. Therefore, God is changing us by His power and might. Salvation is of the Lord.

That doesn’t answer my question. If imputation ensures our salvation, why can’t there just be imputation? Is it necessary for Him to infuse us with grace.

Are you asking if Paul uses justification differently than James?

No. I’m wondering whether imputation and aquittal mean the same thing or are they two aspects of a single justification. Are they two distinct aspects?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[cfrancis]

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

How can you praise and glorify Him for your salvation if you do not have faith (complete trust) that God will finish the work that He started in you? As conveted Chrisitians, apart from the sustaining grace of God…all Christians would apostate in their own power. But through the amazing grace of God…to the praise of glorious grace…we can enter the rest found in Christ alone and the finished work as it is being applied to us from day to day. Our confidence is in God and not in ourselves. It is impossible for God to lie; therefore, hold on to those precious promises because we know that faith pleases God. The justified shall live by faith to the praise of His glorious grace!

At what point were Ananias and Sapphira not saved?

 

[Reformed]

At what point were Ananias and Sapphira not saved?

That’s a good question. Were they saved in the first place, or could they have been goats? Or, maybe they were taken out so their souls would be saved? I don’t think Scripture tells us of the outcome of them, does it?

 

[cfrancis]

That’s a good question. Were they saved in the first place, or could they have been goats? Or, maybe they were taken out so their souls would be saved? I don’t think Scripture tells us of the outcome of them, does it?

Exactly - no mention is made of their eternal fate.
What about the Christians in Rome to whom Paul writes? At what point were they saved/not saved?

 

[Reformed]

Reformed:

Why must we be transformed?

That doesn’t answer my question. If imputation ensures our salvation, why can’t there just be imputation? Is it necessary for Him to infuse us with grace.

No. I’m wondering whether imputation and aquittal mean the same thing or are they two aspects of a single justification. Are they two distinct aspects?

God Bless,
Michael

I think you understand imputation is postional and a legal standing before God. The process of sanctification is the transformation. All who have been justified will be sanctified and glorified to the glory of God. See Romans 8.

 

[Reformed]

Exactly - no mention is made of their eternal fate.
What about the Christians in Rome to whom Paul writes? At what point were they saved/not saved?

Paul writes to the entire visible church consisting of wheat and tares, sheeps and goats. So too that Roman Catholic theology teaches a mix of those who will make it and those who won’t. Therefore, Roman Catholic theology also teaches an invisible church too. Those who endure to the end by the sustaining grace of God makeup the true invisible church. Michael believes in this special grace too which is given to the elect of God.

This is where we should focus:

2 Peter 1

Greeting
1:1 Simeon [1] Peter, a servant [2] and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[mikeledes]

I think you understand imputation is postional and a legal standing before God. The process of sanctification is the transformation. All who have been justified will be sanctified and glorified to the glory of God. See Romans 8.

How is this transformation accomplished in the believer?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I think you are starting to misquote me out of context. Even when you quote something, you are not even quoting the entire sentence.

So, are you saying that you don’t really mean what your posts seem to say?

We often have to cut things out for space. There is character limit, so often I have to whittle down the quotes. Sometimes I delete chunks of my replies, too, for the same reason. I am an equal opportunity snipper.

I have also seen other Catholics post a string of my postings together. Remember, each post is understood within the context of the other surrounding posts.

It has become abundantly clear from your posts on many threads that you have a very specific agenda here, and you have been fairly blunt with your disrespect, which is not acceptable in any context.

Don’t make apologetics something of the flesh.

It is interesting that you seem to consider being confronted about your bigotry and disrespect as “something of the flesh”. Is there anyone in your life that can confront you about wrongdoing and not be “of the flesh”?

Look at my participation on this Roman Catholic site

I did thorough search of your postings, and it served well to confirm my suspicions about your motives. It seems clear that you are not here to get any Catholic Answers. I have also advised you on several occasions that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and that your persistent use of this word is insulting in the context that you apply it, including the one above. This is a Catholic Site, not “Roman”. I think you do this purposely to be insulting.

to drive all of us closer to God, so by the grace of God we will know Him better. To know Him better is to grow in affection for Him alone.

No, Reformed, Catholics are not your herd of cattle to be driven about. We are the flock of God, and we don’t need you to “drive” us anywhere. We are His sheep, He is our shepherd. We know His voice, and we follow Him.

Yes, by His grace we will come to know Him better, but He is not alone. He has chosen to build a church, and the closer we come to him the more affection we will have for the other sheep as well. For, if we cannot love our brother, who we can see, how will we be able to say we love God, whom we cannot see?

You have been misinformed about the Christian faith.

 

[Reformed]

How is this transformation accomplished in the believer?

God Bless,
Michael

Through the seven Roman Catholic sacraments (just kidding).

How about what Peter tells us to make our calling and election sure? See post above.

 

[Reformed]

So, are you saying that you don’t really mean what your posts seem to say?

We often have to cut things out for space. There is character limit, so often I have to whittle down the quotes. Sometimes I delete chunks of my replies, too, for the same reason. I am an equal opportunity snipper.

It has become abundantly clear from your posts on many threads that you have a very specific agenda here, and you have been fairly blunt with your disrespect, which is not acceptable in any context.

It is interesting that you seem to consider being confronted about your bigotry and disrespect as “something of the flesh”. Is there anyone in your life that can confront you about wrongdoing and not be “of the flesh”?

I did thorough search of your postings, and it served well to confirm my suspicions about your motives. It seems clear that you are not here to get any Catholic Answers. I have also advised you on several occasions that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and that your persistent use of this word is insulting in the context that you apply it, including the one above. This is a Catholic Site, not “Roman”. I think you do this purposely to be insulting.

No, Reformed, Catholics are not your herd of cattle to be driven about. We are the flock of God, and we don’t need you to “drive” us anywhere. We are His sheep, He is our shepherd. We know His voice, and we follow Him.

Yes, by His grace we will come to know Him better, but He is not alone. He has chosen to build a church, and the closer we come to him the more affection we will have for the other sheep as well. For, if we cannot love our brother, who we can see, how will we be able to say we love God, whom we cannot see?

You have been misinformed about the Christian faith.

The issues are nothing new. These are the exact same issues that occured during the Protestant Reformation. The only difference is that we now have the Internet and on-line Bibles too.