Reading Scripture together as Christians

[guanophore]

I do confess, that I have broken my own rules.  I do apologize for making those rules in the first place.  Roman Catholic Christians are not disciplined or trained to stay within the Scriptures. Therefore, what I have suggested is not possible with Roman Catholic Christians.

I just want to comment on the persisting condescending attitude that you are reflecting. Near the opening of the thread, you suggested that Catholics (specifically with your derogatory use of the word “Roman”) were afraid to study the scriptures.

Now you are making a sweeping generaliation about “Roman” Christians “not disciplined or trained to stay within the scriptures”. Perhaps you don’t realize what a prejudicial statement this is, or that it conveys a great ignorance about
“Roman” Catholics. On the contrary, what you will find here are a great many Catholics quite well versed in Scripture, and very disciplined.

Just to highlight for you how this sounds, I will use a common analogy that I just saw in a movie this week. Here is how that sentence would sound plugging in some other group:

“(Black) Christians are not disciplined or trained to stay within the Scriptures. Therefore, what I have suggested is not possible with {Black) Christians.”

Perhaps hearing it this way will make it more clear.

I still want to continue to let the Epistles of Paul guide this thread.

Let’s be honest. The Epistles of Paul were never guiding the thread. You have already posted that you believe that Roman Catholic Christians are not part of the true Church, along with a number of other glaring uninformed opinions about the Catholic faith.

You have implied that Catholics do not understand the Epistles of Paul, and from the beginning, you have overlaid your erroneous doctrine of Sola Scriptura. This thread has been guided by Reformed theology and a considerable degree of condescension and prejudice.

But, I will no longer fight those who have the desire to go off the subejct, post links, etc.  If you feel compelled to go beyond what is written, do what you must.  The light of Scripture does expose each one of us in many ways... in life and doctrine.

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. - Hebrews 4

Your communication of your personal agenda by the use of scripture reminds me of scripture used in a similar way during a certain 40 days in the desert.

 

[cfrancis]

Paul writes to the entire visible church consisting of wheat and tares, sheeps and goats. So too that Roman Catholic theology teaches a mix of those who will make it and those who won’t. Therefore, Roman Catholic theology also teaches an invisible church too. Those who endure to the end by the sustaining grace of God makeup the true invisible church. Michael believes in this special grace too which is given to the elect of God.

I don’t completely disagree with this, and surprisingly, it makes my point for me.
No one knows with 100% certitude (unless given a special revelation, which has/can happen) if they will be a sheep or a goat, wheat or tare. Paul addressed all the Romans/Ephesians/Colossians/etc…; neither he nor the ones who received the letters knew for sure which they would be at judgement, because, unless revealed by God, we cannot know the future.
Ananias and Sapphira, when they became Christians, surely thought and hoped they would endure to the end…

 

[guanophore]

Ryan, let’s try to go through an Epsitle of Paul and quote other Bible verses to support that particular part of the letter. I know this challenge is offensive to the Roman Catholic Christian. But, these are the central issues which caused the Protestant Reformation. I find some on here think these issues are not issues. The Protestant Reformtion is still alive and well after 500 years because the Word of God does not changed. What is written cannot be broken.

What is offensive, Reformed, is your condescending and insulting attitude. If you think what you are trying to do here is offensive, why are you doing it? What is your goal?

You are right that condescension, bigotry, and insults are certainly central issues in the Reformation. Throw in with that some corruption and out comes the product of division and sin.

Actually, I think that Protesantism is not so “alive and well”. NOne of the reformers would recognize it today. Also, it continues to split into ever widening splinters. This is the fruit of disobedience.

You are trying to follow a method of scripture study that is not conducive to proper understanding. Catholics read scripture in the light of Apostolc Tradition. We do not avoid parts of the text in order to formulate doctrine, because the doctrine is already complete when we begin.

 

[guanophore]

I hope everyone understands that the central issue that divides us is the same issue that caused the Protestant Reformation. We all agree that Roman Catholicism cannot change in doctrine.

If you think that the doctrine of justification is the major issue that caused the Reformation, then you have a lot to learn about your family history.

Therefore, the positiion of the Roman Catholic Church on the doctrine of justification is the exact same position she had 500 years ago. The Protestant Reformers left to Catholic Church because they understood justification through imputation and as a forensic understanding.

This is an awfully narrow minded view of the Reformation.

We are not debating anything new. The only reason why you think I am been divisive is simply that some Protestants have left the position of the orginal Reformers due to ignorance of historic Protestantism.

I think the main reason you are divisive is that you make comments that are condescending and bigoted.

For those who understand our division of justificaiton, which is the heart of the gospel… I hope you will continue on this thread. Our mutually exclusive views on justification leaves us with different gospels.

I think you say this because you seem to have very little understanding of what the Catholic Church really teaches. Have you ever read any of what the Church says about herself, ,or only what her enemies have told you?

What else can I say, because we are commanded by God to proclaim and defend His gospel. We have enmity on this thread because we proclaim two different gospels to the world.

News flash, Reformed. CAF is not a venue for you to proclaim and defend your reformed gospel. It is a ministry designed to answer sincere questions about Catholicism. It seems clear from your very first post (yes, I checked) that you have no questions for us. You seem to think you have been appointed by God to show us our errors, so that our immortal souls can be saved.

I am put here for the defense of the gospel.

No, Reformed, no on put you here on CAF to defend your gospel. You put yourself here. If you want to evangelize, I suggest you open your own blog or forum, or find one that was created for the purpose of evangelism or using the bible to evangelize Catholics. That is not what this site is for.

 

[Reformed]

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

1 Cor 1

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, [1] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

1 Corinthians 9:16
16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Galatians 4:16
16 Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?

10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant [2] of Christ. - Gal 1

Boy… you have to love that Apostle Paul!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[guanophore]

For those who want to study the Catholic response to this, and how imputation means infusion, here is a link on justification:

pugiofidei.com/logizomai.htm

BTW, I thought links were not allowed.

God Bless,
Michael

Thanks for the link Michael. I think you may have missed this post:

I do confess, that I have broken my own rules. I do apologize for making those rules in the first place. Roman Catholic Christians are not disciplined or trained to stay within the Scriptures. Therefore, what I have suggested is not possible with Roman Catholic Christians. I still want to continue to let the Epistles of Paul guide this thread. But, I will no longer fight those who have the desire to go off the subejct, post links, etc. If you feel compelled to go beyond what is written, do what you must. The light of Scripture does expose each one of us in many ways… in life and doctrine.

Obviously your permission to post links has been restored as a concession because you are undisciplined.

 

[Reformed]

Thanks for the link Michael. I think you may have missed this post:

Obviously your permission to post links has been restored as a concession because you are undisciplined.

See post 190.

Why does everybody thinks Christian unity will be easy? Roman Catholic doctrine has not changed in 500 years? So, who has to change for Christian unity? Protestants have nothing to gain and everything to lose. The gospel of God’s grace still divides us.

 

[Reformed]

It was never about Mary or the Catholic Saints. The dividing line in the sand is still the heart of the gospel of God’s grace.

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Justification/The-Imputation-of-Christs-Righteousness/

 

[cfrancis]

See post 190.

Roman Catholic Christians are not disciplined or trained to stay within the Scriptures.

By “stay within Scriptures” Reformed means to post Scripture, and then do or say nothing with it? Otherwise, each time someone comments on what they believe that Scripture means, we have moved from “within Scripture” to opinion…

Why does everybody thinks Christian unity will be easy? Roman Catholic doctrine has not changed in 500 years? So, who has to change for Christian unity? Protestants have nothing to gain and everything to lose. The gospel of God’s grace still divides us.

Catholic doctrine hasn’t changed in almost 2000 years…and what divides us is what divided us almost 500 years ago: Protestant ego.

 

[guanophore]

Why does everybody thinks Christian unity will be easy?

I don’t know anyone that does who is not living in fantasyland. History has demonstrated that this is not the case.

Roman Catholic doctrine has not changed in 500 years?

No. The doctrine is not “Roman”. It is Catholic. The Teaching s of Jesus have not changed since He gave them to the Apostles. There is one Divine Deposit of Faith that was given once and for all to them.

So, who has to change for Christian unity? Protestants have nothing to gain and everything to lose. The gospel of God’s grace still divides us.

No, what divides us is lack of adherance to the teachings of Jesus. Unity occurs by itself when everyone adheres to the Truth. This is why, when Jesus prayed for unity, He prayed that His Apostles remain in the Truth.

At the time of the Reformation, there were clergy in Europe who were not adhering to the Teachings of Jesus. Their poor role model and personal lack of integrity caused disunity in the body, and fomented rebellion against the authority appointed by Christ to shepherd the flock.

It was never about Mary or the Catholic Saints.

This is true. The Reformers still held to the vast majority of Apostolic teaching. Each new generation jettisons a little bit more, so now we have modern fundamentalists saying that baptism has nothing to do with water!

. The dividing line in the sand is still the heart of the gospel of God’s grace.

No, I think not. I think it is about rebellion against authority.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. This is what the Church has always taught.

 

[guanophore]

Catholic doctrine hasn’t changed in almost 2000 years…and what divides us is what divided us almost 500 years ago: Protestant ego.

Let’s be fair. The greedy and corrupt behavior of so called Catholics did a lot to feed into the rebellion that took place. Neither side is without fault in the matter.

 

[Reformed]

Let’s be fair. The greedy and corrupt behavior of so called Catholics did a lot to feed into the rebellion that took place. Neither side is without fault in the matter.

So, how do we determine which side has the truth?

 

[guanophore]

So, how do we determine which side has the truth?

Those who are in union with the successor of Peter. When satan wanted to sift all of the apostles, Jesus only prayed for one - Peter. He then revealed the Petrine gift - the visible evidence of unity for the Church on earth. “when you are restored, strengthen your brethren”. We must all be included in the prayer for Peter if we want our faith not to fail.

 

[Reformed]

Originally Posted by Reformed
So, how do we determine which side has the truth?

Those who are in union with the successor of Peter. When satan wanted to sift all of the apostles, Jesus only prayed for one - Peter. He then revealed the Petrine gift - the visible evidence of unity for the Church on earth. “when you are restored, strengthen your brethren”. We must all be included in the prayer for Peter if we want our faith not to fail.

The Roman Catholic answer above.

The biblical Chrstians answer is by the Scripture alone.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

The Roman Catholic answer above.

The biblical Chrstians answer is by the Scripture alone.

He did quote Scripture for you.

How do you interpret that passage where Jesus prays for Peter specifically?

 

[cfrancis]

Let’s be fair. The greedy and corrupt behavior of so called Catholics did a lot to feed into the rebellion that took place. Neither side is without fault in the matter.

Absolutely agreed - I have no problem recognizing and admitting the faults of the Church at the time…and at other times of reform and renewal, when courageous Catholics reformed and renewed the Church from within, such as St Francis.
The “Protestant ego” part comes in when individuals began to attempt reform outside the Church.

 

[Reformed]

Originally Posted by guanophore
Those who are in union with the successor of Peter. When satan wanted to sift all of the apostles, Jesus only prayed for one - Peter. He then revealed the Petrine gift - the visible evidence of unity for the Church on earth. “when you are restored, strengthen your brethren”. We must all be included in the prayer for Peter if we want our faith not to fail.

He did quote Scripture for you.

How do you interpret that passage where Jesus prays for Peter specifically?

I don’t think he quoted scripture but rather he gave us Roman Catholic dogma. Are you asking me about the True Rock?

1 Samuel 2:2
“There is none holy like the Lord; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:3
my[1] God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my savior; you save me from violence.

2 Samuel 22:32
“For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47
“The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be my God, the rock of my salvation,

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me: When one rules justly over men, ruling in the fear of God,

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?—

Psalm 18:46
The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be the God of my salvation—

Psalm 42:9
I say to God, my rock: “Why have you forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?”

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m not sure where we can go from here? We know God does everything for His own glory. We were saved to the praise of his glorious grace. We were saved to glorify Him. Therefore, God will finish the work that He started for His own glory and name sake. Salvation is centered on the glory of God, therefore it is impossible for God to fail in this glorious act of saving His vessel of mercy. God is actually glorified according to scripture in pouring out His wrath on His vessels of wrath. That is biblical revelation and biblical theology.

Do you have any thoughts on how God determines what type of vessel a person is?

There’s nothing left but to praise God for his glorious act of saving wretched sinners. I know Roman Catholics cannot praise Him this way because that are unable to see themselves actually redeemed, purchased, saved and adopted from an eternal perspective. Do you see why this is so important, because our praise of Him is tied in with His act of redemption through His Son. Actually, Roman Catholic theology doesn’t allow you to praise Him for His glorious grace until you are on the other side of glory… because you have no idea if you will be saved.

Nice try my friend. Catholics praise God just fine thank you.

Despite all your talk about assurance, you cannot be sure if anyone is a “true” or “superficial” Christian. (according to Calvinist theology)

The Calvinist doctrine actually gives less assurance of salvation than the Catholic one. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Calvinists don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

Peace

 

[guanophore]

The Roman Catholic answer above.

The biblical Chrstians answer is by the Scripture alone.

Catholicims is not “Roman”, Reformed. I believe you use this term deliberately to be insulting, and I would appreciated if you would stop. This is the fifth time I have asked you.

 

[guanophore]

Absolutely agreed - I have no problem recognizing and admitting the faults of the Church at the time…and at other times of reform and renewal, when courageous Catholics reformed and renewed the Church from within, such as St Francis.

It is important to distinguish the Church from the corrupt individuals associated with her. The reason that the Church is Holy, pure, and undefiled is her divine elements. Her Head is Christ, and her Soul is the HS. It is these divine elements that prevent her from error. Most Protestants, since they are separted from the Apostolic Tradition, have a deficient view of the Church (through no fault of their own). Some today don’t even know or believe in the communion of saints. Those who have passed on in Christ are preserved forever in purity by Jesus. These elements of the Church are also Holy and pure. It is only those who are part of the church militant here on earth that are subject to corruption, but that corruption has no power to touch the pure elements.

Eph 5:25-27
hrist loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

The Church is infallible, holy, and without blemish. It is the men who have abandoned her teachings that suffer corruption.

The “Protestant ego” part comes in when individuals began to attempt reform outside the Church.

Yes, but we also have to keep in mind that even the Reformers, who began with pure motives (wanting to be free of corruption) were quickly co-opted by the secular authorities of the time, who saw an opportunity, under the guise of spriituality, to get political control away from Rome.

People like Reformed, who has carried a deep seated hatred toward “Rome” onto CAF, stand in a long tradition of rebellion and bigotry that was not formed of their own making.