Reading Scripture together as Christians

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Do you put any stock in Augustine? What do you make of this?

“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427).
 
I agree.

I don’t know what to say about this.
You are a Calvinist Christian in the making…I’ve seen this transation many times. In your case, you are a Catholic Calvinist in the making or maybe an Augustinian Catholic in the making. 👍
 
Do you put any stock in Augustine? What do you make of this?

“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427).
LOL… Augustine knew in part too! 😉
 
You are a Calvinist Christian in the making…I’ve seen this transation many times. In your case, you are a Catholic Calvinist in the making or maybe an Augustinian Catholic in the making. 👍
I agree with the Augustinian view. Not with total depravity if that is what you were suggesting earlier.
LOL… Augustine knew in part too! 😉
He is talking about those who are predestined to grace but not glory. In other words, they had been saved but ended up losing their salvation.

Are you suggesting he is missing something? 🙂

Here is a good case of those who were saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Some lose their salvation and regain it while others never regain it. (predestination to grace but not glory)

"The faith of these, which worketh by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God’s purpose, and thus are not elected.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 16 (A.D. 427).
 
So, who is the truly blessed one, the infant who is baptized and dies at infancy? I do not believe in the age of accountability, but many Protestants do.
I suppose this may be true. I work with a population of poor, neglected, abused and in many cases unwanted children. Many times when I hear the stories of their lives of gettting beaten, sexually abused, going hungry, and witnessing some of the many horrors they have seen, it does seem to me that to go to heaven in bliss, missing out on all this suffering would be a blessing.

On the other hand, the person who dies in infancy does not have an opportunity to earn any crowns, and such a persons’ suffering,however awful it is, will never benefit others. If you have ever heard the story of Immaculée Ilibagiza , this will make sense to you.

I guess, if one thinks that one is never accountable for their sins, it would not make sense to believe in an “age of accountability”.
 
Is his apologetic work considered to be Sacred Tradition or just tradition?
The whole of the NT was created from Sacred Tradition. Jesus taught His Apostles everything. When they realized that He was not coming back immediately, they began to write down some of what He taught.

1 Peter 3:15-16
“…in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; 16 yet do it with gentleness and reverence.”

This instruction was given as part of Sacred Tradition (Apostolic Teaching) and was commited to writing. So, in answer to your question, yes, apologetics has been part of Sacred Tradition since before the NT was penned. In the NT you will find many apologetic opportunities described. All of these occurred and were preserved prior to any word of the NT being written. They were preserved as Sacred Oral Tradition, just as the Pentateuch was before it was written.
What wrong with the Catholic Answers’ answers on the issues? Scott Hahn came from Calvinism. I think most of the contemporary apologetics stuff are not considered Sacred Tradition, correct? 😉
I hope I don’t understand what you are asking. Otherwise, I will have to thing that you are, once again, being deliberately flippant and insulting of our faith.

Most of contemporary apologetics “stuff” is indeed about Sacred Tradition. The vast majority of issues that come up are a result of Protestants having severed the relationship with the Apostolic succession, thereby losing the divine source of preserve Sacred Tradition.
I’ve debated predestination, election and chosen with my Arminian Protestant brothers for years. It’s impossible to reconcile these issues without understanding God is compeltely sovereign, and He does whatever pleases Him, and He does everything for His own glory.
This seems to be an anthropomorphic perception of the diety.
Man in his fallen nature, wants to be autonomus from God…even Christians still want to be autonomus too from God’'s absolute rule and reign.
This is a gross contradiction. Anyone who is a Christian will have the same mind of the very first Christian (Mary) who had the opposite attitude. A true Christian will want to be the servant of God, and the heart will say “let it be unto me according to Thy word.”
 
I think the entire Christian walk and our prayers is to conform our wills to God’s will.
It is very Catholic of you to say that! 👍
On our own, we want our will to be done, and not God’s will. If we were left to our own free will, nobody would ever choose Jesus Christ for life.
Such a statement does not stand up to scriptural scrutiny.
Scripture is clear that God has fashioned us with a will to seek Him.
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  Our wills have to be changed to move from enmity and rebellion against God to peace, reconcilation and love for God.
Yes and no. We are created in the image and likeness of God. God has built into our beings the desire to seek after Him, and to find HIm. He has revealed Himself to us in many and various ways because He created us so that in HIm we live, and move, and have our being.
We all run from the light because we loved darkness in our fallen nature. The will is never free after to fall. We have free will to sin against God.
Not all run from the light. Some run to it! The will remains free after the fall. God does not offer anything to us that we cannot choose. He offers a choice between life and death because we are still able to choose. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, but the fall did not "unmake"us in His image (the ability to freely choose).
 
Do you put any stock in Augustine? What do you make of this?

“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427).
LOL… Augustine knew in part too! 😉
So, the parts of Augustine’s writings that can conform to Reformed theology are from God, and the parts that don’t are from darkness?

What if what Augustine observed is actually true? What if, indeed, some were called, regenerated, made partakers of grace, and then “spurned the Son of God afresh”?
 
So, the parts of Augustine’s writings that can conform to Reformed theology are from God, and the parts that don’t are from darkness?

What if what Augustine observed is actually true? What if, indeed, some were called, regenerated, made partakers of grace, and then “spurned the Son of God afresh”?
Guess he reads Augustine the same way he reads Scripture. 😛
 
1 Corinthians chapter 2 -

Wisdom from the Spirit
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. [3]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

How can the natural man (unregenerate man) choose Christ in his flesh since he is incapable on his own, to understand spiritual truth? We are also studying the gospel of John on another thread. Jesus tells us that you must be born again to be able to see the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 - 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

In addition, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Rom 8:8

So, how are blind and dead sinners able to choose Christ for live? See the next post. 🙂
 
Regeneration Precedes Faith
By R. C. Sproul

One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: “Regeneration Precedes Faith.”

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

“Faith - rebirth -justification.”

I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. “Prevenient” means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must “cooperate with it and assent to it” before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: “Do I cooperate with God’s grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?” Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means “together with.” I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote “Regeneration precedes faith” on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor’s argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul’s Letter to the Ephesians is this: “…even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)” (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place ‘when we were dead.’ With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.

(from the book, The Mystery of the Holy Spirit, Tyndale House, 1990

For more on this topic see:

The New Genesis by R.C. Sproul
Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx
A Defense of Monergistic Regeneration by Gannon Murphy
Regeneration by Asahel Nettleton

My Comment:
Another passages in the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration preceeds faith see:
1 John 5:1 - “everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God”, John 1:13, Rom 9:16

John 6:63,65 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life… Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father.”

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=regeneration
 
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

How can the natural man (unregenerate man) choose Christ in his flesh since he is incapable on his own, to understand spiritual truth?

This is a just question, since we hold that men do respond to God while they are yet sinners and unregenerate. We believe this happens because God quickens the heart with His spirit, and man does not choose “in the flesh” but by the spirit. God is able to speak to the dead, and bring them forth from death.

Scripture makes it clear that God has fashioned us in such a manner as to seek after Him and find Him even in our unregenerate state. He has revealed Himself in His creation in such a manner as to make us recognize His invisible power and diety. All men are without excuse if they do not recognize Him, or serve Him.
Reformed;4327674:
We are also studying the gospel of John on another thread. Jesus tells us that you must be born again to be able to see the kingdom of God.
Yes. Catholics believe that this occurs in baptism. Baptism washes away sins, and seals us in the promised HS, implanting in us a new nature, by which we can “see” the kingdom. Some persons do respond to God’s drawing grace, yet still refuse to be buried with Him in baptism.
John 3:3 - 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
In addition, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Rom 8:8

So, how are blind and dead sinners able to choose Christ for live? See the next post. 🙂

You posted the answer to this yourself!

Acts 17:22-30
"Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. 23 For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him — though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,
‘For we too are his offspring.’

29 Since we are God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals."

We are all God’s offspring. We are created in the image and likeness of God. He has fashioned us so that we will seek Him and “our hearts are restless until they rest” in Him. Even the blind can “grope” for God. He created us with a “groping” reflex. 👍
 
Regeneration Precedes Faith
By R. C. Sproul

One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith.

My Comment:
Another passages in the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration preceeds faith see:
1 John 5:1 - “everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God”, John 1:13, Rom 9:16

John 6:63,65 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life… Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father.”

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=regeneration
I agree from my experience that regeneration precedes faith as we understand it in Christianity. However, from the time of my baptism at age 6 I began to have a conscience that made it difficult for me to hurt another human being or another creature. I could see in myself and others the potential to harm and actually do harm. I did not understand the faith and had an aversion to most of the examples who taught me the faith. I was always drawn to those who had a humility and softness in their faith. I suppose that this could be the process of being formed by the Holy Spirit in my faith. I went to Mass, Confession, received Communion. Confirmation occurred around the age of 12 and I took the name of the person who stood for me, Paul. Then I left the faith at 18 not knowing that I was still being formed even though I rejected the faith.
Little did I know that I did not reject the faith, rather, I rejected the people who taught me the faith. I began a search for love which eventually led me to Buddhism because of the use of the intellect as a way of developing a path towards understanding oneself that was different from the identity forced upon me in this culture. The self that was searching for was the vulnerable self that went into hiding early in life due to the lack of understanding of those who were to educate me about who I am and where I belong.
God was still forming me through all these years outside the faith.
Then when I was softened enough to see that those who taught me the faith were not the faith, He showed me the completion of His Love in the faith.
Regeneration did precede faith in my case. Faith is not a choice for me. Faith is a blessing and I now have the free will to open more deeply in my faith to an understanding of the mystery of the kingdom of God and His Love for all of us. If I do not seek Him in all experiences through His Love then I reject the gift He has given me through what is now a free will which can only come from the Spirit. Now that I know His Spirit I now have the free will to reject His Spirit each time I sin.
 
I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.
Do you not agree that regeneration cannot happen apart from God?

The characterization of “a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within” may be a reference to what we are referring to as the image and likeness of God. We bear the stamp of His nature, and part of this nature is freedom and choice. This does not come from ourselves, but was placed there by God so that we would “grope after Him to find HIm” (see previous post).
No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace.
This is a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Agreed, no man has the power to raise Himself from spiritual death. It is all God’s grace. However, Catholicism (which is not "Roman) does not teach that prevenient grace causes one to be “born again”.
“Prevenient” means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must “cooperate with it and assent to it” before it can take hold in our hearts.
This is the Apostolic teaching, which is clear that “This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 **who desires everyone to be saved **and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Tim 2:3-5

Rom 1:4-5
esus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship **to bring about the obedience of faith among all **the Gentiles for the sake of his name,

Acts 17:30
30 While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

The grace of God calls all to be saved, to repent, and to come to the obedience of faith.
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  Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised.
It is good to know that Sproul is in agreement with the Apostolic Teaching on this point. 👍
The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: “Do I cooperate with God’s grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?” Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.
This question is irrelevant, since Catholicism does not teach that drawing grace regenerates.
Code:
 I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point.
I think not. :tsktsk: In fact, it is clear that Luther did not understand Catholic teaching on this point. This becomes clear in reading the documents of the Council of Trent on justification, as well as the present day catechism.
Code:
At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God?
An irrelevant question, since the Catholic Church does not teach that drawing grace regenerates.
After a person is regenerated he cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.
We are in agreement that the first step is a work of God, and God alone. We are dead in our trespasses and sins when God calls us to repent and be saved. However, the Apostles taught that being in that state does not prevent mankind from percieving Godd, or hearing the call of God, or by grace responding to the call.

This is illustrated in the response of those present to hear the preaching of Peter at Pentecost. Prior to being regenerated, they asked “what must we do to be saved”. They received the Apostolic instruction, and were born again of water and the spirit. 👍
Code:
The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.
This is where the Reformed idea differs from the Apostolic Teaching. 😊
Code:
My Comment:
Another passages in the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration preceeds faith see:
Regeneration, I think we will agree, is substantially transformative, and produces a radical change in the person on all levels (spiritual, mental, emotional). I am not sure that the response to drawing grace can be characterized by the word “faith”. Groping after God to find Him really is feeling around in the dark.
 
Please remind me when regeneration takes place in your tradition. :o
Regeneration Precedes Faith
By R. C. Sproul

One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: “Regeneration Precedes Faith.”

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

“Faith - rebirth -justification.”
Do these verses support Sproul?

**Acts 10:1
Now in Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Cohort called the Italica 2
devout and God-fearing along with his whole household, who used to give alms generously to the Jewish people and pray to God constantly.
3
One afternoon about three o’clock, he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him and say to him, “Cornelius.”
4
He looked intently at him and, seized with fear, said, “What is it, sir?” He said to him, "Your prayers and almsgiving have ascended as a memorial offering before God. . . .

31
'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your almsgiving remembered before God. . . .

44
While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word.
45
The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also,
46
for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded,
47
“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?”**

I’m not rejecting that regenertation can proceed faith, but we understand regeneration differently.
 
This is good stuff, isn’t it. We are searching the deep things of God that will grow our affections for God. We basically have three views, I think.
  1. Regeneration Precedes Faith (most Reformed Christians).
  2. Regeneration occurs simultaneously upon hearing the gosel (some Reformed Baptist like Spurgeon and John MacArthur)
  3. Regeneration occurs after a person exercises his own personal faith (aided by the Spirt). - Roman Catholicism, Protestant Arminianism and Orthodox
The purpose of this particular discussion is to grow us in love and affection for God. I don’t think we all need to agree, but we do need to see that God is the cause of our salvation… to the praise of His glorious grace God demonstrated His love for us,while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Here is a passage on regeneration from the gospel of John.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 
John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 
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