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Mickey
Guest
Notice the clear reference to baptism.
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Reformed
Guest
LOL…not from my Reformed lenses. Let’s continue this discussion over on the gospel of John Bible Study, okay?Notice the clear reference to baptism.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277468&page=15
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Reformed
Guest
Water and Spirit could mean
Physical birth and Spiritual birth.
or
Ezekiel 36
I Will Put My Spirit Within You
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
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Mickey
Guest
LOL…I know. That is a common mistake by the reformers and those that glean their theology thereof.
R
Reformed
Guest
Please, let’s continue this discussion on the gospel of John study called " Jesus Christ - Bible Study". I personally think you might be challenged.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277468&page=15
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Mickey
Guest
The most famous New Testament evidence for the efficacy and necessity of baptism is in John’s Gospel. When Nicodemus comes to visit Jesus by night, Jesus says that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:3-5). From the earliest days of the Church this passage has been understood to refer to baptism, and this interpretation is virtually unanimous down through history.
However, many Evangelicals have a peculiar interpretation for this verse. They say that the “water” in the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the amniotic fluid of the mother’s womb. This is the “water” that breaks at the point of physical birth. Therefore they believe when Jesus refers to “water and the Spirit,” he is referring to physical birth and spiritual re-birth. This might be a possible interpretation as the previous verse was a discussion of a man entering again into his mother’s womb.
However, one must look at the whole passage in its context. It is universally agreed that John’s Gospel is the most “sacramental” in its approach. The passages of Jesus’ life and teachings are put together in such a way as to connect with, and support, the sacramental life of the early Church. In the verses that immediately follow Jesus’ words that one must be “born again of water and the Spirit,” Jesus talks about “men loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil” (verse 19) and that whoever “lives by the truth comes to the light” (verse 21). The references to light point to the other main symbol of the baptismal ceremony—the lighted candle. If there is any doubt, the very next story in John chapter 3 shows Jesus immediately going out with his disciples baptizing.
catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0803fea2.asp
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Mickey
Guest
You started it here also. It has been covered on the other thread.
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Reformed
Guest
I know, I’m trying to limit my participation on Catholic Forum to these two Bible Studies. Please feel free to respond on either thread. However, it seems we should continue this particular topic on the gospel of John Bible Study. I want the particular chapter that we are studying together to drive our discussion when possible. However, we will drift and overlap to other areas. We do need to correct each other when we drift too far off the chapter discussion.
M
Mickey
Guest
Okay.
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guanophore
Guest
Not a chance. Scripture never uses “water” to refer to physical birth.
John 1:11-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.
Physical birth in scripture is always of blood, or the will of the flesh, or the will of man (or all the above).
This is why Mary needed an offering of purification, because of the blood in childbirth.
R
Reformed
Guest
Please move this particular discussion to the gospel of John Bible Study. What do you think about Ezikel 36 in regards to water and blood? Please answer on the other thread to keep our Bible Studies orderly.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277468
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ryanoneil
Guest
We believe regeneration occurs at baptism.
Physical birth is discounted in v4. water baptism is being refered to.
This points to Catholic water baptism which is an act of God and not a mere symbol.
**“Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols I will cleanse you” (Ez. 36:25). **
**“A new heart also I will give you … I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh” (Ez. 36:26).
“I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments and do them” (Ez. 36:27).**
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Reformed
Guest
Thansk for your contribution on this topic. We moved this particluar discussion to the “Jesus Christ - Bible Study” since that study is currently on the gospel of John chapter 3. Your contribution on that Bible Study would be appreciated as well.
R
Reformed
Guest
If the Catholic Church teaches that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA class? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. I just don’t get it. I thought the great commission was to make disciples of Christ? The Spirit is needed in the individual to understand spiritual truth. The RCIA class is being conducted with those who are still in the flesh since the Catholic Church teaches that baptism causes the new birth. They sure didn’t practice this kind of Christianity in the book of Acts.
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Ronald_E
Guest
Good question. I was a sponsor for two people last year who were already baptized. However, there were others who were not and they waited until Easter Vigil Mass to be baptized.If the Catholic Church teaches that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA class? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. I just don’t get it. I thought the great commission was to make disciples of Christ? The Spirit is needed in the individual to understand spiritual truth. The RCIA class is being conducted with those who are still in the flesh since the Catholic Church teaches that baptism causes the new birth. They sure didn’t practice this kind of Christianity in the book of Acts.
http://www.safecom.org.au/images/puzzled.gif
I thought the delay was unnecessary and dangerous since regeneration does begin at baptism.
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cfrancis
Guest
You are saying Christians didn’t instruct converts before baptizing them?If the Catholic Church teaches that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA class? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. I just don’t get it. I thought the great commission was to make disciples of Christ? The Spirit is needed in the individual to understand spiritual truth. The RCIA class is being conducted with those who are still in the flesh since the Catholic Church teaches that baptism causes the new birth. They sure didn’t practice this kind of Christianity in the book of Acts.
Acts 16:
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
30 and after [the jailer] brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
And this after Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:
37 Now when [the gathered crowd] heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
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ryanoneil
Guest
The great commision also says “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”
He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord and, with ardent spirit, spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the Way (of God) more accurately. (Acts 18:25-26)
But when some in their obstinacy and disbelief disparaged the Way before the assembly, he withdrew and took his disciples with him and began to hold daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This continued for two years with the result that all the inhabitants of the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord, Jews and Greeks alike. (Acts 19:9-10)
They have been informed that you are teaching all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses and that you are telling them not to circumcise their children or to observe their customary practices. (Act 21: 21
One who is being instructed in the word should share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)
He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord and, with ardent spirit, spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the Way (of God) more accurately. (Acts 18:25-26)
But when some in their obstinacy and disbelief disparaged the Way before the assembly, he withdrew and took his disciples with him and began to hold daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This continued for two years with the result that all the inhabitants of the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord, Jews and Greeks alike. (Acts 19:9-10)
They have been informed that you are teaching all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses and that you are telling them not to circumcise their children or to observe their customary practices. (Act 21: 21
One who is being instructed in the word should share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)
G
guanophore
Guest
It was Jesus that taught regeneration occurs at baptism. This is what He meant in Jn 3 when He spoke about being born from above by water and Spirit.
However, even though He gave us the sacrament of baptism as the normative means by which disciples are joined to Himself and the Body, He is not bound by it. As He demonstrated in the case of Cornelius, He can regenerate anyone He desires, whenever He wishes, an He does so.
RCIA is a period of formation and careful discernment. Christ instructed that one should “count the cost” and that one who put the hand to the plow, then turned back, was not worthy. RCIA provides this period of discernment, questioning, and formation so that persons can count the cost prior to committing themselves.
Such a statement reveals that one may have put the Spirit of God in a “box”, in thinking that God is unable to make a person understand spiritual truths, no matter what. The ability of the Spirit to open the eyes of the blind is not dependent upon the sacraments.
It seems this way to you because you have a very limited view of the working of the Spirit. You do not recognize drawing grace, and you have narrowed your understanding of how the Spirit can change a person whom He is “with” as opposed to “in”.
As a matter of fact, this is the Christianity that was practiced prior to the book of Acts, as Jesus taught His Apostles for three years in the “flesh” before the Spirit fell upon them. Why would He do this if it was of no value?
I would give my left hind laig for the mp3 set of Paul’s two years in the Tyrannus lecture hall. Why didn’t they post that on U tube?
R
Reformed
Guest
Baptismal regeneration is the offiical Roman Catholic belief. But when you study the conversions found in the book of Acts, the pattern is quite different. Here is the bibilical testimony: The Apostle will proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to a crowd or individual. God the Holy Spirit quickens the elect to be able to spirituality hear the gospel, receive it, and believe the great good news of God for reconcilation to God, peace with God, adoption and becomes a child of God prior to partaking in water baptism. Thereafter, the converts immediately are baptized with water after convresion. Have you ever struggled with Acts 13:48 in regards to who are able to believe the gospel for conversion?
Acts 13:46-50
46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.
Please notice that in the 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul, water bapitsm in not even part of the gospel proclamation.
The Message of Salvation to All - Rom 10
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, the Apostles never separate baptism from regeneration. It may be that we are having a semantics problem with the word “regeneration”. For Catholics, this includes the washing away of sins.
Acts 22:15-16
16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’
This is the result of prevenient(drawing) grace.
Peace with God cannot happen unless and until a person has been joined to Christ in His death and Resurrection. this is what occurs in baptism. Baptism is the normative means by which we are adopted and become a child of God.
No. I don’t see anything there that would cause a “struggle”. You use this word a lot. Why do you think one should 'kick against the goads" so to speak?
Are you assuming that those who came to believe were not baptized?
Gal 3:27
" As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is the wedding garment Jesus spoke of, without which one will be “cast out into the utter darkness”.
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