Reading Scripture together as Christians

[ryanoneil]

Romans 4

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Here is the critical issue. We believe that there are works in a system of law, and works in a system of grace.When we do works in a system of law, we stand condemned. That is because in this system, we try to obligate God like an employer. But there is nothing we can do to merit any payment from God.

But, when we do works in a system of grace, they are profitable to our salvation. That is because in a system of grace, we approach God as a Father who loves us, not as an employer who owes us. We move from a system of law to a system of grace through faith in Jesus Christ

**Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance, and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.(Rom 5:1-5). **

So, when Paul teaches that we are not justified by works of law and James’ teaching that we ARE justified by works (which appears to be inconsistent with each other), we recognize that they are talking about two different systems: law and grace.

1 Cor 3

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Add or ask more if you wish.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

We believe Jesus ended the OT law by fulfulling it. **Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)**The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

We don’t believe we are in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.

John 6

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

We see this “work” in a system of grace.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. (John 3:36)

 

[Reformed]

The Catholic Faith is correct in the emphasis of works but incorrect for the motive of works. We all need to distances ourselves from the wong application of apparent justification apart from works of a changed life. We agree that antinominanism or a professing of Christ through altar calls or sinner’s prayers without a changed affection does not save a sinner. It is a false profession of faith or a dead faith.

When a person is justified by God through imputation, or credited the righteousness of Christ alone as our legal standing before God, then the Holy Spirit will begin a life-long process of making us personally more holy and righteous (becoming like Jesus Christ in reality and not positionally). However, part of the transformation process is the gospel and understanding of what Christ has done for us positionally. It is a life of repentance and faith on what Christ has done on our behalf positionally, and what the Spirit is working out in personal transformation. Since the process of transformation is a lifetime marathon with much struggle and battle (rom 7), we cannot look to our battle and transformation as our grounds for our relationship to God as Heavenly Father. We have changed our relationship to God from judge to Father. We need to walk in the works God prepared for us to do in advance (Epheisans 2:9) out of a motivation of love and gratitude and not to seek favor from God as our position with Him. We are permanent adopted children of God because of the basis of the person and work of Christ alone. Our understanding of the atonement is extremely significant too. We are growing to glorify God in all we do (mind, heart, and action), including from our old nature tendency to boast in the flesh to growing in boasting in God alone (Spirit).

 

[ryanoneil]

What you are saying sounds very agreeable, but I don’t fully understand what imputation means. (maybe we use a different term).

Could you say a bit more about “positionally” or give a link?

 

[Reformed]

What you are saying sounds very agreeable, but I don’t fully understand what imputation means. (maybe we use a different term).

Could you say a bit more about “positionally” or give a link?

I started yet another thread with a link that should answer your question. Here’s the thread, and click on the link on the OP.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=279634

 

[ryanoneil]

I started yet another thread with a link that should answer your question. Here’s the thread, and click on the link on the OP.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=279634

OK, I’ll check it out. Concerning our 1 Cor studies, What do you think of #647 on the previous page?

If you don’t have anything to add I’ll keep going.

 

[Reformed]

Post 647

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you [2] are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Even though the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing at the time, Paul realized that the Old Covenant Temple had been replaced by the living body of Christ in the New Covenant.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? (1 Cor 6:19) the body of every individual Christian.

The body of every local Church is a temple in (1 Cor 3:17)

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:19-22) The body of the universal Church.

Paul says the careful builders will receive a heavenly reward, (v 14) Careless builders will pass through purging fires on their way to salvation (v 15) and destructive workers will themselves be destroyed. (v 17) This includes those who are holy and fall away.

1 Cor 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Paul quotes Job 5:13 and Psalm 94:11. The lowly will be lifted up and the proud will fall apart. God will chasten those who tink their wickedness goes unnoticed by the Lord.

I don’t want to gloss over your comments because they are very good. I will try to get to them soon. You can continue if you want to.

 

[Reformed]

Please move on Ryan. I mostly agree with what you posted above, but disagree with some of the issues that you brought up. Let’s agree to disagree in the areas that we happen to disagree because I think they are secondary issues.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Please move on Ryan. I mostly agree with what you posted above, but disagree with some of the issues that you brought up. Let’s agree to disagree in the areas that we happen to disagree because I think they are secondary issues.

Where does the Bible tell us that some issues are primary and some issues are secondary? Can you please point me to a passage of scripture that tells us what aspects of our faith are essential, and which are non essential?

 

[Reformed]

Where does the Bible tell us that some issues are primary and some issues are secondary? Can you please point me to a passage of scripture that tells us what aspects of our faith are essential, and which are non essential?

Well, that’s what all Christians have to discern what is essential, secondary, and non-essential in regards to the Christian Faith. The Catholic Magesterium does the same thing. Some Scripture is interepreted for you as a Roman Catholic as considered essential (matt 16), and other Scriptures and doctrines are allowed to have a broad mutually exclusive views withing a wide range of beliefs in that particular doctrine (predestination). Do you believe in the hypo-static union of Jesus Christ, and is that essential to embrace and defend as a Christian?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well, that’s what all Christians have to discern what is essential, secondary, and non-essential in regards to the Christian Faith. The Catholic Magesterium does the same thing. Some Scripture is interepreted for you as a Roman Catholic as considered essential (matt 16), and other Scriptures and doctrines are allowed to have a broad mutually exclusive views withing a wide range of beliefs in that particular doctrine (predestination). Do you believe in the hypo-static union of Jesus Christ, and is that essential to embrace and defend as a Christian?

So the Bible doesn’t tell us some things are essential to the faith, and others aren’t?

I thought all we needed was the Bible?

 

[Reformed]

So the Bible doesn’t tell us some things are essential to the faith, and others aren’t?

I thought all we needed was the Bible?

Ashley,

I thought you decided to leave our Bible Study. I will address your comments related to the Scriptures we are studying as a group. But, I will ignore comments that are not relevant to the Bible Study.

 

[guanophore]

Where does the Bible tell us that some issues are primary and some issues are secondary? Can you please point me to a passage of scripture that tells us what aspects of our faith are essential, and which are non essential?

This is a great question Ashley!

Well, that’s what all Christians have to discern what is essential, secondary, and non-essential in regards to the Christian Faith.

No wonder there are so many ecclesial communities!

Seems like an extra-biblical source to me!

Come to think of it, I do recall a place in scripture where it says “every man did what was right in his own eyes.” I think that maeks everyone a law unto himself.

The Catholic Magesterium does the same thing.

Amen!

Some Scripture is interepreted for you as a Roman Catholic as considered essential (matt 16), and other Scriptures and doctrines are allowed to have a broad mutually exclusive views withing a wide range of beliefs in that particular doctrine (predestination). Do you believe in the hypo-static union of Jesus Christ, and is that essential to embrace and defend as a Christian?

This is a silly question to ask a Catholic. Catholics are the ones who developed that doctrine, and made it an essential article of faith. One cannot be Catholic unless one believes this.

Ashley,

I thought you decided to leave our Bible Study. I will address your comments related to the Scriptures we are studying as a group. But, I will ignore comments that are not relevant to the Bible Study.

Ashley, shame on you! You are obviously bringing up issues that are not convenient to answer. Did you not get the idea that your peppering of questions is creating a nuisance on this thread? Get with the program, or you are going to miss the chance to get converted!

 

[AshleyBelle]

Ashley,

I thought you decided to leave our Bible Study. I will address your comments related to the Scriptures we are studying as a group. But, I will ignore comments that are not relevant to the Bible Study.

I really am trying to understand, reformed. I’m seeing contradictions in what you are telling me, and I want to be able to study the Bible together

You say on one hand that all we need is faith in Jesus, and the Bible alone… But then you say on the other that it’s up to Christians to judge what is essential in the Bible and what is non essential… But if somebody has to choose what’s really important in the Bible, shouldn’t the Bible make reference to that?

My comments are very related to the scriptures because I feel they are crucial to understanding the scriptures.

 

[Reformed]

I really am trying to understand, reformed. I’m seeing contradictions in what you are telling me, and I want to be able to study the Bible together

You say on one hand that all we need is faith in Jesus, and the Bible alone… But then you say on the other that it’s up to Christians to judge what is essential in the Bible and what is non essential… But if somebody has to choose what’s really important in the Bible, shouldn’t the Bible make reference to that?

My comments are very related to the scriptures because I feel they are crucial to understanding the scriptures.

Just please stay within the chapter or two that we are studying. Otherwise, it seems you are derailing the Scriptures that we are on. Ryan sent me a message this morning that he will post the new chapter that we will be studying next sometime in the evening. FYI, Ryan is a Catholic Christian.

 

[guanophore]

Just please stay within the chapter or two that we are studying. Otherwise, it seems you are derailing the Scriptures that w!e are on. Ryan sent me a message this morning that he will post the new chapter that we will be studying next sometime in the evening. FYI, Ryan is a Catholic Christian.

Ashley!

You have become so powerful

You now have the power to “derail the Scriptures”. This is amazing. How did you get that power? Can I buy it? Please don’t rebuke me like Peter did Simon Magus.

Maybe what Reformed says about you is true? Maybe you are becoming a Protestant? Is not the power to derail the scriptures an inherent gift of Protestants?

 

[Ronald_E]

I really am trying to understand, reformed. I’m seeing contradictions in what you are telling me, and I want to be able to study the Bible together

You say on one hand that all we need is faith in Jesus, and the Bible alone… But then you say on the other that it’s up to Christians to judge what is essential in the Bible and what is non essential… But if somebody has to choose what’s really important in the Bible, shouldn’t the Bible make reference to that?

My comments are very related to the scriptures because I feel they are crucial to understanding the scriptures.

AshleyBelle,
Once again you have provided evidence why women are God’s gift of love to men. You have been blessed with wisdom to see what the apostles could not see, i.e. the Samaritan woman at the well, Mary the Mother of God, Balaam’s donkey who was female, Mary Magdalene, etc, etc.
Why is wisdom referred to as She?
I left the discussion because I do not have the Wisdom you have.
You are blessed with mystical sight

 

[AshleyBelle]

Guanophore, and Ronald E you are both so very kind! :blushing:

It is so inspiring to know that God can use our voices, though we are so very little, to reach people with His truth! These forums have been such a blessing! And I hope that in some small way, I might continue to serve my Lord in what little ways that I can

You have both been encouraging for me as well… Being fairly new to the church, there is still SO much I don’t know! It helps me so much to have strong brothers in Christ such as yourselves to help me on this path… steadfast reminders that we are not running this race alone

 

[Reformed]

Guanophore, and Ronald E you are both so very kind! :blushing:

It is so inspiring to know that God can use our voices, though we are so very little, to reach people with His truth! These forums have been such a blessing! And I hope that in some small way, I might continue to serve my Lord in what little ways that I can

You have both been encouraging for me as well… Being fairly new to the church, there is still SO much I don’t know! It helps me so much to have strong brothers in Christ such as yourselves to help me on this path… steadfast reminders that we are not running this race alone

Did you know that Paul was not a people pleaser and was moe concerned about pleasing God? I will try to respond to postings related to the Bible Study and ignore all the rest. I will wait for Ryan to post the next chapter to discuss before I continue.

No Other Gospel - Gal 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant [2] of Christ.

 

[tGette]

Did you know that Paul was not a people pleaser and was moe concerned about pleasing God?

Did you know that Jesus taught us that the second greatest command is to “Love our neighbor as ourselves” ???

 

[Reformed]

Did you know that Jesus taught us that the second greatest command is to “Love our neighbor as ourselves” ???

We are commanded to speak the truth in love.

Ephesians 4 |

4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? [1] 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds [2] and teachers, [3] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, [4] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. - Ephesians 4