Real Catholic TV on feminism in the Church

[Mrs_Sally]

Gave up on a liberalized church and now live a secular lifestyle.

But why did they give up? Why didn’t they stay and fight? Isn’t that what men do?

The church has always been full of women. In the past, women hadmore opportunity to spend time in church–at daily Mass or at adoration. But, men were there on Sundays, their sons served, they belonged to groups like the Sacred Name Society, they went on pilgrimages. Now, you can hardly find enough men in some parishes to be ushers, let alone anything else. If that is because somewhere in the 1960s a nun in a business suit started coordinated liturgies, then men in general are bigger pansies then I could ever imagine.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Correlation does not imply causation.

As an aside, Africa certainly does permit Altar girls. Or at least, it is happening, big time. In all my Parishes we have Altar girls.

But more to the point. This is a slight derailment. I can believe that Africa is producing more Priests and there are more vocations here. But we need to look at the reasons why.
For one, many see it as an escape. Many African boys are taught by their parents that being a Priest is easy, gets them fed, paid and it’s comfortable - oh and you also get a free ticket to Heaven. This is the reality of Africa. God forgive me for saying this, but the Priests we are churning out here are not good Priests. For the very reason that vocations are not really vocations in the first place - and because seminaries are poor and things are made easier, more lax and it’s more about making the stats improve rather than making a fantastic, orthodox Priest.

It’s a real shame. The point is that the statistics do not really make a point either way IMO.

I have heard this very same thing from a FSSP priest who works in Africa. Many boys want to become priests because they hope to be sent to school in the US or get out of Africa at least when they are priests. They see the priests living in a nice house (rectory), having servants (housekeeper), food prepared for them, and a relatively easy job.

I do not at all say that no African priest has a true vocation, just that being a priest can be seen as a luxury job comparerd to their alternatives. This can also be said to be true for western boys/men in past centuries (even into the 20th C), when the priest may have been the only job they knew that didn’t involve manual labor.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Second let’s give the boys a reason to be there. Since this is not at all inherent in the duties performed, then make the job bigger; more important. Give them a manly reason to be there. Eliminating the presence of girls does in no way make wearing a dress and doing dishes “manly”. Try harder than that.

Good post. My son is here, home from school sick, and he says that being an altar boy is not at all “wearing a dress and playing with dishes.”

There are only boy servers at our parish and he says, “You get to carry a big metal cross, and play with fire.” LOL And reminded me that there was wine involved.

So he’s being facetious, but he’s right. There are many ‘manly’ aspects to altar serving if the priest gives the boys those responsibilities. Like carrying candles in the procession or using a large processional cross.

Playing sports during the altar server picnic doesn’t hurt either.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Good thing the Church ceased being an evil patriarchal institution once the renewal of Vatican II allowed a false notion of equality to emerge and cloud the distinction between the roles of males and females during Holy Mass. At times, if not everyday, the Church seems to be nothing but another version of the Episcopal Church, which of course isn’t a church, but nevertheless.

Its worth noting that the Church never ceased being extremely patriarchal.

After all, no women are part of the hierarchy.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

No, women were never ordained. Deaconesses acted in a specific ministerial role and were not equal to female deacons.

Because only a man can be a proper Deaconess

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I don’t remember Mary ever complaining to Peter about her lack of participation in what was going on. Women of our time would be wise to look to our Mother as an example of how women should act and dress.

That is a horrible idea.

As Marian adoration has developed the Virgin Mary has become less and less like a real woman (at least as she is understood in Catholic theology). She is too perfect and sanitized now to serve as a useful role model for anyone.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

They are serving either in the Eastern Catholic Churches or a Roman Rite parish that offers the EF Mass. From what I can see. Get every parish to offer the EF Mass, and the altar boys will return. Keep in mind that in a Novus Ordo only parish, the lay people set up for Mass, and the altar boys have to serve with altar girls. So the role of an altar boy has since deminished. When I was an altar boy, we set up for Mass, and were thoroughly trained by the priest. Not by the laity, as it is done today. But by the clerics, themselves. I comletely agree with Michael Voris.

I belong to a “Norvus Ordo” only parish and the boys set up for Mass and are trained by the priests. We have only boy altar servers, have had several vocations from the parish in the past few years (getting ready for an ordination next month) and the current head altar boy has a vocation to the priesthood.

My point is just that the answer is priestly direction, not necessarily the mass form. Our parish also has an adoration chapel with daily adoration until 10pm at night and 3 daily Masses. Those are the things that build up the body of Christ - dads, moms, daughters, and sons, all to their God-given vocations.

 

[laszlo]

I have heard this very same thing from a FSSP priest who works in Africa. Many boys want to become priests because they hope to be sent to school in the US or get out of Africa at least when they are priests. They see the priests living in a nice house (rectory), having servants (housekeeper), food prepared for them, and a relatively easy job.

I do not at all say that no African priest has a true vocation, just that being a priest can be seen as a luxury job comparerd to their alternatives. This can also be said to be true for western boys/men in past centuries (even into the 20th C), when the priest may have been the only job they knew that didn’t involve manual labor.

Exactly this was the first motivation for priesthood until our time in Europe and the US too. Not the TLM but the overall appreciation of the priests drew vocations.

The vocation is not the feelings/emotions/motivation of the candidate, but the call of the bishop, to which the candidate answer.

We shall not deny the fact, but to understand that the described motivation attracts the parents, who are tending their boys toward the priesthood. The problem is, that in the Western world parent do not have such motivation, and for this reason the number of the vocation fall down to the quarter of the required number.

The fuure of the Christianity is an Africa. Seeing the negative side of it, may result to loose them to the Protestants, nothing else…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I belong to a “Norvus Ordo” only parish and the boys set up for Mass and are trained by the priests. We have only boy altar servers, have had several vocations from the parish in the past few years (getting ready for an ordination next month) and the current head altar boy has a vocation to the priesthood.

My point is just that the answer is priestly direction, not necessarily the mass form. **Our parish also has an adoration chapel with daily adoration until 10pm at night **and 3 daily Masses. Those are the things that build up the body of Christ - dads, moms, daughters, and sons, all to their God-given vocations.

Let us not forget the power there (in the adoration chapel) and the power of prayer. Be a prayer warrior :knight1: for vocations.

Of course what we could do to help the priests that we have is to not complain about every little thing and to pray for them too.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I have heard this very same thing from a FSSP priest who works in Africa. Many boys want to become priests because they hope to be sent to school in the US or get out of Africa at least when they are priests. They see the priests living in a nice house (rectory), having servants (housekeeper), food prepared for them, and a relatively easy job.

I do not at all say that no African priest has a true vocation, just that being a priest can be seen as a luxury job comparerd to their alternatives. This can also be said to be true for western boys/men in past centuries (even into the 20th C), when the priest may have been the only job they knew that didn’t involve manual labor.

This is an important point.

Priests used to be part of the power elite (at least in Catholic countries) so its only natural that Feminists and other people would assume that the priesthood is about power.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Exactly this was the first motivation for priesthood until our time in Europe and the US too. Not the TLM but the overall appreciation of the priests drew vocations.

The vocation is not the feelings/emotions/motivation of the candidate, but the call of the bishop, to which the candidate answer.

We shall not deny the fact, but to understand that the described motivation attracts the parents, who are tending their boys toward the priesthood. The problem is, that in the Western world parent do not have such motivation, and for this reason the number of the vocation fall down to the quarter of the required number.

The fuure of the Christianity is an Africa. Seeing the negative side of it, may result to loose them to the Protestants, nothing else…

Why is Latin America left out of these kinds of discussions so often?

Over half of all Catholics live there, and its been the only solidly Catholic **continent **since the Reformation.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Let us not forget the power there (in the adoration chapel) and the power of prayer. Be a prayer warrior :knight1: for vocations.

Of course what we could do to help the priests that we have is to not complain about every little thing and to pray for them too.

:tiphat: :clapping:

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

That is a horrible idea.

As Marian adoration has developed the Virgin Mary has become less and less like a real woman (at least as she is understood in Catholic theology). She is too perfect and sanitized now to serve as a useful role model for anyone.

I’m sorry you feel that way but Mary is a real woman but she is also the embodiment of Christian holiness and must be given the honor due her. Being the Mother of our Savior is a really big deal.

In her being our role model she can teach us to trust God as she did, to obey and give seflessly as she did, and as far as humility she always leads people to Jesus.

She is the perfect example for all of us but especially women today. We women need Mary so, so much today. We must look to her and ask for her prayers and guidance and do our best to imitate her.

 

[laszlo]

Why is Latin America left out of these kinds of discussions so often?

Over half of all Catholics live there, and its been the only solidly Catholic **continent **since the Reformation.

In Africa, where the Catholic population is booming, the ratio is 4,875 Catholics to every priest. In Central America, the ratio is 6,894 to 1; **in South America, 7,135 to 1 **and in Asia, 2,300 to 1. (In North America excluding Mexico one priest serves 1600 Catholics)

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’m sorry you feel that way but Mary is a real woman but she is also the embodiment of Christian holiness and must be given the honor due her. Being the Mother of our Savior is a really big deal.

In her being our role model she can teach us to trust God as she did, to obey and give seflessly as she did, and as far as humility she always leads people to Jesus.

She is the perfect example for all of us but especially women today. We women need Mary so, so much today. We must look to her and ask for her prayers and guidance and do our best to imitate her.

According to Catholic Theology the Virgin Mary is:
-Eternally Virgin, both physically (meaning that she never lost her hymen) and practically.
-Without Sin (meaning that she never had any lustful thoughts of any kind).
-Untroubled by the normal pain of labor during the Christ Child’s birth.
-And many Catholic theologians have speculated that she was untainted by a woman’s monthly cycle (she never had a period). Though I am unsure whether or not this is official Church doctrine.

Moreover, according to the doctrine concerning the Assumption of Mary, the Virgin Mary was physically and spiritually taken into Heaven at the end of her life.

What could a creature (remember everyone but the Divine Father and Son are creatures) so sheltered, passionless, and sexless have to teach anyone about marriage, sex, death or children?

Mary never experienced normal conception, pregnancy, childbirth, marriage, sex, or even death (and perhaps not menstrual cycles either).

Her greatest achievement was giving birth, an unnaturally easy (or at least supernaturally easy) birth.

This is the ideal?

I would rather revere Catherine the Great or Elizabeth I. At least those women were strong and showed an ability to persevere through adversity.

 

[archangel04]

The angry rants of the angry atheist, why am I not surprised?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

According to Catholic Theology the Virgin Mary is:
-Eternally Virgin, both physically (meaning that she never lost her hymen) and practically.
-Without Sin (meaning that she never had any lustful thoughts of any kind).
-Untroubled by the normal pain of labor during the Christ Child’s birth.
-And many Catholic theologians have speculated that she was untainted by a woman’s monthly cycle (she never had a period). Though I am unsure whether or not this is official Church doctrine.

Moreover, according to the doctrine concerning the Assumption of Mary, the Virgin Mary was physically and spiritually taken into Heaven at the end of her life.

What could a creature (remember everyone but the Divine Father and Son are creatures) so sheltered, passionless, and sexless have to teach anyone about marriage, sex, death or children?

Mary never experienced normal conception, pregnancy, childbirth, marriage, sex, or even death (and perhaps not menstrual cycles either).

Her greatest achievement was giving birth, an unnaturally easy (or at least supernaturally easy) birth.

This is the ideal?

I would rather revere Catherine the Great or Elizabeth I. At least those women were strong and showed an ability to persevere through adversity.

And all adversity has to do with menstrual cycles?

Mary went through potentially being shunned as an unmarried mother

• had to run from political leaders trying to kill her son (and who did kill thousands of baby boys in the attempt)
• lived in exile for years in a foreign country that spoke a different language where she was a minority race
• lived in poverty even when she returned to her own country
• had her husband die years before she did
• followed her itinerant son around the countryside for 3 years
• watched her son be scourged and die a horrible death

Yes, she was without original sin, but that doesn’t mean she was without free will or human feelings. Remember that temptation is not sin and that even Christ was tempted. Mary might have had wistful feelings for the more normal life she could have lead, but that she gave up to do God’s will. Many saints have spoken of feelings like this. Not longings or regrets, but the passing thought for what might have been. However, like Mary, we need to sell all we have to get the pearl of great price.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The angry rants of the angry atheist, why am I not surprised?

No false advertising here

 

[TMC]

According to Catholic Theology the Virgin Mary is:
-Eternally Virgin, both physically (meaning that she never lost her hymen) and practically.
-Without Sin (meaning that she never had any lustful thoughts of any kind).
-Untroubled by the normal pain of labor during the Christ Child’s birth.
-And many Catholic theologians have speculated that she was untainted by a woman’s monthly cycle (she never had a period). Though I am unsure whether or not this is official Church doctrine.

Moreover, according to the doctrine concerning the Assumption of Mary, the Virgin Mary was physically and spiritually taken into Heaven at the end of her life.

What could a creature (remember everyone but the Divine Father and Son are creatures) so sheltered, passionless, and sexless have to teach anyone about marriage, sex, death or children?

Mary never experienced normal conception, pregnancy, childbirth, marriage, sex, or even death (and perhaps not menstrual cycles either).

Her greatest achievement was giving birth, an unnaturally easy (or at least supernaturally easy) birth.

This is the ideal?

I would rather revere Catherine the Great or Elizabeth I. At least those women were strong and showed an ability to persevere through adversity.

I agree that it is a mistake to strip Mary of her humanity, in part because doing so renders her a less useful role model, but also because it does her a disservice to suggest that she led a good life only because she had supernatural backing that made her good life easier to accomplish. That said, I think you are misstating or over stating Catholic teaching about Mary:

-Eternally Virgin, both physically (meaning that she never lost her hymen) and practically.

The Church teaches this.

-Without Sin (meaning that she never had any lustful thoughts of any kind).

The Church teaches that Mary was without sin, but not that she was without temptation. Even Christ was tempted. What that means about Mary’s mental state and her internal sexual or other thoughts I don’t know. I do know that Mary was a human creature, so I assume (and believe) that her sinlessness was the result of her moral resolve and her good nature, and not because God magically removed all temptation from her.

-Untroubled by the normal pain of labor during the Christ Child’s birth.

You hear some Catholics say this, but I do not belive the Church teaches it and I have see no theological or rational reason it would be true.

-And many Catholic theologians have speculated that she was untainted by a woman’s monthly cycle (she never had a period). Though I am unsure whether or not this is official Church doctrine.

I have not heard this one, but it seems even less supportable then the painless child-birth thing.

Mary was not a demi-God given the gift of an easy and virtuous life. To the extent you are suggesting that the attempts of some to paint her that way are counter-productive, I agree. Mary was a first century peasant girl who was pregnant out of wedlock and apparently widowed at a relatively young age. I believe that she had a hard but otherwise fairly normal life before her Son’s mission began, which was remarkable because of her virtue, hard work and kind heart, not because she was given a miraculously easy path to follow.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

And all adversity has to do with menstrual cycles?

Mary went through potentially being shunned as an unmarried mother

• had to run from political leaders trying to kill her son (and who did kill thousands of baby boys in the attempt)
• lived in exile for years in a foreign country that spoke a different language where she was a minority race
• lived in poverty even when she returned to her own country
• had her husband die years before she did
• followed her itinerant son around the countryside for 3 years
• watched her son be scourged and die a horrible death

Yes, she was without original sin, but that doesn’t mean she was without free will or human feelings. Remember that temptation is not sin and that even Christ was tempted. Mary might have had wistful feelings for the more normal life she could have lead, but that she gave up to do God’s will. Many saints have spoken of feelings like this. Not longings or regrets, but the passing thought for what might have been. However, like Mary, we need to sell all we have to get the pearl of great price.

As I understand it, sin is defined (according to Catholics at least) as disobedience to God in thought, deed, or emotion. Simply having bad thoughts (especially lustful ones) is a sin in of itself.

Therefore, a truly sinless person would be incapable of thinking, feeling, or acting except in a certain (Godly) way. Its debatable whether such a creature would be a person at all. They would certainly not have feel will in any meaningful way.

Moreover, just from a literary point of view (the Bible is one of the most widely read books in history) the (Catholic) Virgin Mary is not very impressive.

She was not a great teacher, warrior, academic or scholar. She did not die for her beliefs (as so many Christians did) nor did she is go out of her way to spread them like the apostles did. The Virgin Mary never held any position in the Church (at least before she died) and was not apparently capable of exerting control or influence her son’s followers.

Mary only becomes powerful and influential (assuming you take the Marian doctrines at face value) after she dies. And then only because her Son loves her the most.