Real Presence?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jitterbug
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks to all those involved in this civil discussion.
You’re welcome Roy5, but I am beginning to wonder exactly how productive this discussion is. I say this because back in Post #32 you gave seven reasons for your misgivings concerning the Real Presence (actually you said you were referring to transubstantiation, but you are really addressing the Real Presence, as I pointed out in Post #36). In defense of the Real Presence, I and a number of other people have responded to your various points. Nine days later you gave your response to our (name removed by moderator)ut, but rather than address the specific things we brought up, you simply decided to reiterate what you had presented back in Post #32, as if nothing had been brought up on the Catholic end of things. To see first-hand what I am referring to, I invite you and anyone else reading this to compare what you said in Post #32 and what you said nine days later in Post #75.
For the faithful who can believe in transubstantiation, fine.
Once again, what you’re really addressing is the Real Presence, not transubstantiation. Orthodox Christians as well as some Protestant denominations believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (i.e., his body, blood, soul and divinity) but reject the principle of transubstantiation.
I wish I didn’t have such serious doubts.
I ask you to re-read my material from:
Post #36,
Post #37,
Post #38
& Post #39.

Exactly what in them failed to allay your doubts?
Now forgive this, but let me say what millions of Catholics and non-Catholics likely think.
Exactly what are your statistics for this? I seriously doubt if millions of Catholics reject the doctrine of the Real Presence at all. In terms of non-Catholic doubters, why should that matter? There are non-Catholics who also reject the Incarnation, the Bible, Baptism and many other things as well. The responsibility of the Catholic Church is to preserve and teach what God reveals, not to throw out aspects of that revelation to make our beliefs seem more feasible in the eyes of non-Catholics.
The dogma that bread and wine become the body and blood of God can seem simply too pagan and primitive.
I already addressed the problem with this argument in Post #37. What is your response to the specific points I made?
God is everywhere, after all. “Lo, I am with you always.”
I already addressed the problem with using this as an argument against the Real Presence in Post #36. What is your response to the specific points I raised?
Plus, the idea that God comes in a special way into a small piece of bread and a chalice of wine comes awfully close to resembling animism of sorts - worship of a tree or a rock or maybe the sun or moon, each as a special residence of the Lord.
I already addressed the problem with this position back in Post #36. What is your response to the specific points I raised?

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
Add to this the fact that Jesus was always using metaphors - he was the vine, the gate, the Good Shepherd, etc.
I already addressed the problems with using this as an argument against the Real Presence back in Post #37. What is your response to the specific points I raised?
This is certainly not to demean the doctrine for those who embrace it. Most religions have something similar. The ancient Jews believed Jehovah was in the Ark, and they carried him around.
I already addressed this back in Post #36. What is your response to the specific points I raised?
The Muslims throw stones at the devil when they make their pilgrimage to Mecca. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and other faiths - certainly Native Americans religions - have/had special and sacred places where God was located more than in other places. Often holy mountains or rivers. Millions of wonderful people need to have such places. Fine. However, one can disagree with such concepts and still admire many other things about that religion.
None of the examples you cited are comparable to the Real Presence. As I pointed out in my earlier posts, it is not a question of whether or not God is present, but rather how he is present. For example, none of the examples you cited are comparable to the doctrine of the Incarnation (i.e., God took on flesh and dwelt among us in both a spiritual and physical presence). The Real Presence perpetuates that special existence of Christ for each generation.
Most religions have at least a smidgen of superstition, which is understandable in light of this vast and mysterious universe. We have a right and often a need to p(name removed by moderator)oint spots where God lives with some particular intensity. This always has been important in the life of many millions of multiple faiths.
And because God is mysterious the way we determine whether or not a doctrine concerning his presence is valid is by checking it with what God has revealed. You seem to think that the test for doctrinal validity is what you personally deem is feasible, and what you personally deem is not superstition.
As far as I’m concerned, when I focus on it, I rejoice in the presence of God everywhere - from that beauty in the heavens above at this very moment (as I look out of my window) to that found in the smile of a baby’s face in his/her cradle. It probably doesn’t hurt to have a focal point for those who want it, need it and/or believe in it.
Once again, it is not simple a question of whether or not God is present, but rather how he is present. To suggest that the presence of God in the Eucharist is only a spiritual presence, and not a presence that is both spiritual and physical, is highly problematic, as I outlined in Post #36 & Post #39. What is your response to the specific points I raised?
God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive to make religion more of a bridge and less of a barrier.
Exactly what do you mean by saying that religion needs to be “more of a bridge and less of a barrier”? Are you suggesting Catholics get rid of everything in our Catechism that non-Catholics could consider to be a superstition? If we did that then we wouldn’t have any teachings left! Jesus certainly never taught according to such sensibilities in the gospels. Consider the teaching of the Real Presence in John 6 when the crowd rejected his words over and over, and Jesus continued to maintain his stance regarding the consuming of his body and blood.

As I stated before, the responsibility of the Catholic Church is to preserve and teach what God has revealed throughout each generation. We are not supposed to water down or edit God’s revelation according to what non-Catholics think is feasible. Keep in mind that faith requires people to, at some point, set aside their opinions and preconceived notions, and humbly submit to the truth. After all, it’s about a “leap of faith.”
 
(Continued…)

Exactly what do you mean by saying that religion needs to be “more of a bridge and less of a barrier”? Are you suggesting Catholics get rid of everything in our Catechism that non-Catholics could consider to be a superstition? If we did that then we wouldn’t have any teachings left! Jesus certainly never taught according to such sensibilities in the gospels. Consider the teaching of the Real Presence in John 6 when the crowd rejected his words over and over, and Jesus continued to maintain his stance regarding the consuming of his body and blood. "
Code:
 Let me just focus for a couple minutes on building bridges between religious faiths. A little personal background, just to flesh out my own background a bit. I have a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage which early on opened me up to the idea that different people of high morals and deep faith have different perceptions. I presume that made me skeptical of dogmatic religion of any sort. 

 Then I got involved with the Trappists. First, as a teenager I went to La Trappe in Quebec, etc. Then along came Thomas Merton and his "Seven Storey Mountain". Perhaps you're aware of that book. He was, of course, a Trappist in the Gethsemani Monastery in Kentucky (I believe they spell it with that i). Later, I read some of his later works, in which he emphasized such issues as equal rights, peace, economic justice, and respect for other faiths. I believe his last work dealt with Zen Buddhism. In fact, he died while attending a gathering of spiritual leaders of different faiths in Thailand back in 1968.

 Merton strove to build bridges among kindres spirits who had different spiritual perspectives. That is difficult to do if one is convinced that 'my' religion in the one and only true one, that all the rest are wrong either substantially or in part, that somehow Catholicism gives one a leg up when it comes to God and the final judgment.

 Personally, I enjoy dialoging with informed and kind persons of any and all faiths as there always is more to learn from them. For some years (before retirement) I taught comparative religions in college, and what a wealth of insight one finds in them. I have spent time in India, Japan, Korea and China - plus Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Greece, Russia, etc. - each with rich religious traditions which I sought to explore as time permitted.

  Over the years I began to develop an increasing disagreement with the notion that God is properly presented fully only through one faith, be it Catholicism or any other. This sentiment began to seem arrogant and (forgive me) unintelligent in so many ways. Sorry. But that's what happened to me. I still find very much to appreciate in Catholicism, certainly in such arenas as education, medical care, and concern for the poor, but those ironclad, you-must-believe dogmas tend to alienate. Moreover, I find that most Catholics I know - those who think a lot, anyway - insist on thinking independently, usually without exiting the Church. They attend Mass while dissenting on various matters. I find no fault in that as faith, it may be argued, has more to do with a deep emotional commitment than to any doctrines set in stone. 

   As for Real Presence and Transubstantiation, I have always seen them as two sides to the same coin. All Christians, as far as I know, believe in the real presence not so much as a dogma but as an obvious reality. God is everywhere, here with me as I write this. Not pantheism, just omnipresent growing out of his omnipotence. Believing that the flesh and blood of Jesus, plus his spirit, are more concentrated somehow in a wafer and some wine is difficult for me to imagine, let alone believe. It harkens back to an earlier era when such beliefs were commonplace, to an era when it was not unusual to have valid visions, when demons and ghosts were everywhere, when God sent tornados and hurricanes. when crops failed or illness came because of the work of Satan or punishment from God.  

  But God bless those who can believe in the Real Presence or Transubstantiation and who find strength and consolation in this belief. Different strokes for different folks. What troubles me isn't difference of opinion but insistence that only one opinion is absolutely, positively, thoroughly and completely right while all other views are not right. Millions of people, including many learned Biblical scholars with all those advanced degrees from Cambridge and Oxford, Harvard, Yale and Princeton. have studied the same texts and come to different conclusions. 

 One note I want to add. You wrote of Protestant groups that believe in the Real Presence. Again, all Protestants believe in God's eternal and everlasting presence everywhere. But bear in mind that mainline Protestantism by its very nature permits a wide variation in belief. Take Presbyterians or Congregationalists or Methodists. There are evangelical Methodists who stick with what they believe is inerrant scripture. There are liberal Methodists, often sitting alongside them in church, who consider such Biblical stories as Adam and Eve. Noah and the Great Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., as folklore, legends, and not history.  Most Methodists would not have fervent positions. Their founder John Wesley said "think and let think' - and that spirit characterizes much of mainline Protestantism. I find that attractive. Religion should free our minds to soar into the mysterious world of theology, free to tred new and different paths, and not have to recite whatever has been handed down from ancient councils and pontiffs.

 On the other hand, for those who want uniformity, who are ready to accept the authority of what they believe is Christ through the tenets of 'his church', who look to the catechism for their articles of faith - pax vobiscum. Peace be with you.
 
Roy5, all of the arguments on earth will never convince you that Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist. If you are honestly seeking to know the full truth, you must invest the time spent in these forums and go spend time before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Spend an hour with Him, as He asked Peter to do at Gethsemane. Tell Him that you doubt His presence. Then, just sit before Him in prayer. You might be amazed sooner, or you might be amazed later, but you will be amazed. After that, no argument on earth will convince you that He is not present.

If you fear the answer, or if you are not seeking the truth, then simply continue to present your arguments here. However, there need not be argument, when He Himself waits to convince you.
 
Merton strove to build bridges among kindres spirits who had different spiritual perspectives. That is difficult to do if one is convinced that ‘my’ religion in the one and only true one, that all the rest are wrong either substantially or in part, that somehow Catholicism gives one a leg up when it comes to God and the final judgment.
But, somewhere along the way, Merton lost his direction and wandered dangerously close to the pantheism of some religions. His later books must be read with caution. Disregarding Merton, Christ did not teach universalism - rather that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. We are the sole creatures of ideas on this earth. That is both blessing and curse. Our freedom allows us to accept of reject the Truth as it has been revealed to mankind. Peace does not result from universal acceptance, but from submission to the Truth that convicts your heart.
Over the years I began to develop an increasing disagreement with the notion that God is properly presented fully only through one faith, be it Catholicism or any other. This sentiment began to seem arrogant and (forgive me) unintelligent in so many ways. Sorry.
Here, the pantheistic influence on and of Merton is revealed, and it produces only confusion, for there is one God, and we alone are in His image and likeness. Pantheism opens the door to relativism, and what you are saying here reveals that influence. You are free to believe it, but will never be at true peace, never absolutely certain that any given path is correct - or incorrect.
I still find very much to appreciate in Catholicism, certainly in such arenas as education, medical care, and concern for the poor, but those ironclad, you-must-believe dogmas tend to alienate.
You find, then, much to appreciate also in government, which performs the same functions, but which cannot provide for you in eternity, or give peace in your heart, or hope for the future.

Honestly, I think that your disquietude comes from lack of dogmatic belief - which causes you to have a shifting foundation. Thus, you risk being tossed about by the winds or losing your footing on the shifting sands of time and culture.

Just 'coincidentally", here are Pope Benedict’s prayer intentions for the month of June:

General Intention: Christ, Present in the Eucharist. That believers may recognize in the Eucharist the living presence of the Risen One who accompanies them in daily life. No other faith believes or teaches this.

Missionary Intention: European Christians. That Christians in Europe may rediscover their true identity and participate with greater enthusiasm in the proclamation of the Gospel.

May Christ’s peace be with you.
 
Let me just focus for a couple minutes on building bridges between religious faiths. A little personal background, just to flesh out my own background a bit. I have a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage which early on opened me up to the idea that different people of high morals and deep faith have different perceptions. I presume that made me skeptical of dogmatic religion of any sort.
There’s just one thing I’d like to know from you, Roy. Eric Filmer has spent considerable time and effort providing you with detailed answers to your questions and the points you have made about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why have you completely ignored the points he has made in response? He’s written many messages to you and I think it’s both unfair and intellectually dishonest for you to change the subject to one you feel comfortable with, without so much as acknowledging his efforts.

Pardon me for saying so, Roy, but this thread isn’t about you. It’s about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and your objections to the doctrine. Please, either respond to what Eric has posted or admit you have no answers. Thank you.
 
There’s just one thing I’d like to know from you, Roy. Eric Filmer has spent considerable time and effort providing you with detailed answers to your questions and the points you have made about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Why have you completely ignored the points he has made in response? He’s written many messages to you and I think it’s both unfair and intellectually dishonest for you to change the subject to one you feel comfortable with, without so much as acknowledging his efforts…
Ferde, allow me to extend to you my gratitude for pointing this out!
 
Ferde
Code:
Sorry. I didn't intend in any fashion to make it about me. I simply have attempted to explain my approach to the subject of the Real Presence. I strongly believe in it, but only because I believe in (and often sense) the presence of God. 

 It seems as though some posters feel that people simply need to have the truth (as they see it) explained in some detail and then others accept it. Millions upon millions of well-educated and well-versed Christians disagree with one another. Have you ever debated with a Jehovah Witness? Or, a Seventh-Day Advent? Or various other kinds of Evangelicals? (JWs, of course, are not Evangelicals - or even Protestants, nor are the Mormons.) 

 My main point always comes back, I presume, to the authority of the Magisterium. For those who believe that Christ founded one Church and it is today's Catholic Church and that all other Christians are essentially heretics  

 It seems that some posters because they somehow assume they have 'proven' their case and others should simply accept it. 

 Anyway, I think it best that I leave this thread. I've made my point and hardly expect many traditional Catholics to agree with it. Just enjoy dialoguing.
 
Ferde, Sorry. I didn;t intend in any fashion to make it about me.
Originally Posted by Roy5
Let me just focus for a couple minutes on building bridges between religious faiths. A little personal background, just to flesh out my own background a bit.

Sure looks like it to me. I asked you why you have ignored Eric’s messages to you and you ignored that as well. That tactic is straight from Prot Apol 101. I’ve seen it about a million times, so you have a lot of company
I simply have attempted to explain my approach to the subject of the Real Presence. I strongly believe in it, but only because I believe in (and often sense) the presence of God.
This is your third trip around the block with that. Your approach to the Real Presence is to deny it. And why shouldn’t you? You’re a Protestant. To say you ‘believe in it’ because you sense the presence of God is to deny it and to define the term by your personal ‘feelings.’ That may suffice to satisfy you, but it isn’t theology nor is it Christian doctrine.
It seems as though some posters feel that people simply need to have the truth (as they see it) explained in some detail and then others accept it. Millions upon millions of well-educated and well-versed Christians disagree with one
another.
Yes, and they’re all Protestants. Do you believe Jesus intended that millions upon millions of well-educated and well-versed Christians disagree with one another? Is the Holy Spirit asleep on the job? Is He lying to these millions upon millions of people who call themselves Christians? What is the truth as you see it? How many truths are there do you think? Jesus says in Scripture He will build “my Church.” That means one Church. Which one do you think that is? Which is the only Christian Church to have been in existance from the 1st Century to today? There is another group of questions for you to ignore because you have no answer.
My main point always comes back, I presume, to the authority of the Magisterium. For those who believe that Christ founded one Church and it is today’s Catholic Church and that all other Christians are essentially heretics
That’s what Scripture and history say and it’s the fundamental, on-going debate between Catholics and Protestants. If you deny it, it’s incumbent on you to prove it and that you cannot do.
It seems that some posters because they somehow assume they have ‘proven’ their case and others should simply accept it.
Do you not accept facts when they are proven to you? Do you not accept a convincing argument when you find you have no response, as in the instant debate? Isn’t that putting your head in the sand?
Anyway, I think it best that I leave tghis thread. I’ve made my point and hardly expect many traditional Catholics to agree with it. Just enjoy dialoguing.
That is the one consistency I find in Protestants on the internet. When they have painted themselves into a corner and been asked questions they cannot answer truthfully without denying what they believe, they ‘leave this thread.’ Without, in this instance, making a single valid point relevant to the debate. Just enjoy denying.
 
A little personal background…
Well, Roy5, based on your comment from Post #88 you seem not to desire to participate in this thread anymore. I hope you will reconsider because I am still interested in your responses to my previously posted material. In any event, I will go ahead and respond to what you presented in Post #83.
…Then I got involved with the Trappists. First, as a teenager I went to La Trappe in Quebec, etc. Then along came Thomas Merton and his “Seven Storey Mountain”. Perhaps you’re aware of that book. He was, of course, a Trappist in the Gethsemani Monastery in Kentucky (I believe they spell it with that i). Later, I read some of his later works, in which he emphasized such issues as equal rights, peace, economic justice, and respect for other faiths. I believe his last work dealt with Zen Buddhism. In fact, he died while attending a gathering of spiritual leaders of different faiths in Thailand back in 1968.
Shortly after my conversion to Catholicism, I went through a phase of wanting to explore various aspects of Catholic spirituality with an open mind. In short…
  1. Yes, I am aware of the book, The Seven Story Mountain.
  2. I once made a pilgrimage to the Trappist monastery in Kentucky that you mentioned.
  3. I once attended a seminar on centering prayer taught by Fr. Thomas Keating (a Trappist monk).
And yet I eventually came to very different conclusions than you seem to have. In terms of 20th Century Catholic authors, my personal recommendation is “Less Thomas Merton, more Archbishop Fulton Sheen.” In terms of my additional thoughts concerning Thomas Merton, they echo what Po18guy said in Post #85.

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
Personally, I enjoy dialoging with informed and kind persons of any and all faiths as there always is more to learn from them. For some years (before retirement) I taught comparative religions in college, and what a wealth of insight one finds in them…
…Moreover, I find that most Catholics I know – those who think a lot, anyway - insist on thinking independently, usually without exiting the Church. They attend Mass while dissenting on various matters. I find no fault in that as faith, it may be argued, has more to do with a deep emotional commitment than to any doctrines set in stone. (emphasis added)
First of all, you speak about the desire to dialog with “kind persons” and then you throw out what appears to be a thinly veiled insult concerning me and many others in the this thread. Obviously, I am not one of the Catholics that you are describing here, so does this mean that I don’t think a lot? I have a B.A. in psychology, a Master’s of Divinity, and a Master of Arts in Systematic Theology (which included a prerequisite of two years’ of philosophy), all of which were gotten the old fashioned way (i.e., attending actual classroom lectures, taking exams and doing research papers, over the course of several years). So I think I have done a great deal of thinking, especially in the field of human behavior, philosophy and religion. So what exactly makes the opinion of dissident Catholics who “think a lot” more credible than mine?

Secondly, what you seem to be promoting here is indifferentism, which is the belief that all religions are equally valid (source). Whereas the Catholic Church recognizes that many religions have elements of the truth, it is in the Catholic Church where the fullness of truth subsists. Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches us to recognize and appreciate the truth found in other religions, but to avoid the mentality of indifferentism.

The problem with indifferentism is that different religions teach many things which contradict one another. With this in mind, consider the Second Law of Logic, which is also known as the Law of Non-Contradiction: contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true. For example, consider these two positions:

Position 1: A Creator God exists (which is a belief represented in Christianity, Judaism and Islam).
Position 2: A Creator God does not exist (which is a belief represented in Buddhism, Pantheism, and a number of branches of New Age spirituality).

Objectively speaking, one of these positions is true and the other is false; it is impossible for both to be true at the same time (and it is impossible for both to be false at the same time). A religion which represents the false position cannot, by definition, possess the fullness of truth.

Now consider that in light of another comment you made…
Merton strove to build bridges among kindres spirits who had different spiritual perspectives. That is difficult to do if one is convinced that ‘my’ religion in the one and only true one, that all the rest are wrong either substantially or in part, that somehow Catholicism gives one a leg up when it comes to God and the final judgment.
So according to your worldview, no one should say that another religion is “wrong either substantially or in part.” From this I have two observations…
  1. Using my two above examples concerning beliefs about a Creator God, how can the two sides both be true at the same time? Objectively speaking, according to the Law of Non-Contradiction, either the Christian/Jewish/Muslim position is correct and the Buddhist/Pantheism/New Age position is false, or vice versa. Some of the religions mentioned here have to be in error regarding this matter, and that means they cannot possess the fullness of truth.
  2. In this thread you have stated that the doctrine of the Real Presence is incorrect (Post #32), that certain pagan beliefs are incorrect because they are superstitious and primitive (in Post #32 & Post #75) and that animism is wrong (Post #75). So obviously you think that Churches (& denominations) which teach the Real Presence are wrong substantially, and that paganism and animism are also wrong substantially. But according to you no one should say that another religion is “wrong either substantially or in part.” So why is it ok for you to break your own rule?
(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
As for Real Presence and Transubstantiation, I have always seen them as two sides to the same coin.
Well, they aren’t. Quite frankly, seeing as you profess to have once taught comparative religion in college, I am surprised to see you make such a comment. As I pointed out, there are many groups which believe in the Real Presence: Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists. Of these groups that I have mentioned, only Catholics believe in transubstantiation.
All Christians, as far as I know, believe in the real presence not so much as a dogma but as an obvious reality.
Well they don’t. You’re trying to redefine the term “Real Presence” in a manner contrary how the rest of Christianity uses the term. As I have repeatedly pointed out in this thread, the term Real Presence refers to the physical and spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
God is everywhere, here with me as I write this. Not pantheism, just omnipresent growing out of his omnipotence.
As I have repeatedly pointed out in this thread, the presence of God is everywhere, but not in the same way. Because of the Incarnation, God took on our flesh and dwelt among us as “true man.” This is a spiritual and physical presence, so this is not the same presence of Christ who was “there with you when you wrote that”, presuming that your computer is not next to a tabernacle. If you say that the presence of Christ that is in your house is identical to the presence of Christ in terms of the Incarnation then kindly tell me what his shoe size is.
Believing that the flesh and blood of Jesus, plus his spirit, are more concentrated somehow in a wafer and some wine is difficult for me to imagine, let alone believe. It harkens back to an earlier era when such beliefs were commonplace, to an era when it was not unusual to have valid visions, when demons and ghosts were everywhere, when God sent tornados and hurricanes. when crops failed or illness came because of the work of Satan or punishment from God.
Once again, you have decided to side-step the specific points I raised and simply reiterate your earlier position. The above statement is just another way of you criticizing belief in the Real Presence because it sounds too much like (in your opinion) primitive superstition. I have addressed this point in the past, and requested that you respond to the specific points I raised, but so far you have not elected to do so.
But God bless those who can believe in the Real Presence or Transubstantiation and who find difference of opinion but insistence that only one opinion is absolutely, positively, thoroughly and completely right while all other views are not right.
Let’s look at some difference religious beliefs on the subject:

Catholic: The Real Presence of Christ is within the Eucharist. Therefore, Catholics kneel in adoration to the Eucharist. A valid Eucharist requires a validly ordained Catholic or Orthodox priest (but not Protestant clergy). The process by which the bread & wine become the Real Presence is transubstantiation.

Orthodox: The Real Presence of Christ is within the Eucharist. Therefore, Orthodox Christians kneel in adoration to the Eucharist. A valid Eucharist requires a validly ordained Catholic or Orthodox priest (but not Protestant clergy). Orthodox Christians do not believe that transubstantiation is a valid representation how the bread and wine become the Real Presence.

Episcopalians: The Real Presence of Christ is within the Eucharist. Therefore, Episcopalians kneel in adoration to the Eucharist. A valid Eucharist requires a validly ordained priest, including Protestant priests having proper Anglican orders. The Articles of Religion of the Episcopal denomination affirm the Real Presence within the Eucharist but expressly denounce transubstantiation as a superstition.

Many Protestant Denominations: The Eucharist is, at best, only a symbol of Christ. If Christ is present in the Eucharist, it is only a spiritual presence rather than the Real Presence. Christianity is not supposed to have priests, and the Eucharist is not a sacrament. Kneeling in adoration to the Eucharist is an act of idolatry.

According to the Law of Non-Contradiction, it is impossible for all these positions concerning the Eucharist to be true at the same time. Objectively speaking, in this particular case one of these positions is true and all the others are false, or all of them are false. It is impossible for them to all be true, or for even two of them to be simultaneously true.

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
Millions of people, including many learned Biblical scholars with all those advanced degrees from Cambridge and Oxford, Harvard, Yale and Princeton. have studied the same texts and come to different conclusions.
Which is why the “litmus test” concerning the truth of Christian doctrine should not be based on the opinions of “learned Biblical scholars” who have “advanced degrees.” Two people with the same academic degrees can have completely contradicting interpretations of God’s revelation, so who is right and who is wrong? Instead, what has to be examined is 1) the manner by which God gives humanity his revelation, and 2) the manner by which God has his revelation officially interpreted. The Catholic response is, 1) Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and 2) the Magisterium.

On the other hand, you seem to be suggesting that all religious beliefs are part of God’s revelation (except for belief in the Real Presence, or the belief of pagans or animists that you have deemed to be “primitive” and “superstitious”) and that no one is empowered to officially interpret it. God is mysterious enough as it is for us humans; does he truly desire us to have to shift through such a chaotic and subjective system in order to glean what his revelation is? When we talk about God’s revelation, we are talking about what we need to know in order to attain heaven and avoid hell, so the stakes are incredibly high! A merciful God would give us some clarity on the matter by designating what is specifically his revelation, and providing us an official interpretation of it.
One note I want to add. You wrote of Protestant groups that believe in the Real Presence. Again, all Protestants believe in God’s eternal and everlasting presence everywhere.
As I have stated before, the belief in God’s eternal and everlasting presence is not the same as belief in the Real Presence. Within Protestantism there are Episcopalians, Lutherans and Methodists who believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. On the other hand, Baptists, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and many others do not believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
But bear in mind that mainline Protestantism by its very nature permits a wide variation in belief. Take Presbyterians or Congregationalists or Methodists. There are evangelical Methodists who stick with what they believe is inerrant scripture. There are liberal Methodists, often sitting alongside them in church who consider such Biblical stories as Adam and Eve. Noah and the Great Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., as folklore, legends, and not history. Most Methodists would not have fervent positions. Their founder John Wesley said "think and let think’ - and that spirit characterizes much of mainline Protestantism. I find that attractive. Religion should free our minds to soar into the mysterious world of theology, free to tred new and different paths, and not have to recite whatever has been handed down from ancient councils and pontiffs.
I am a former Protestant and I think that your representation of Protestantism here is a bit off. You seem to think that because certain Protestants within the same denomination may have differing interpretations of certain Scripture verses, then there is an openness to doctrinal diversity as well. There most certainly is not. Each Protestant denomination allows for a degree of some diversity, but draws the line on many doctrinal matters. For example, if a member of the Church of Christ interprets the Bible to state that a sinner is justified by his profession of faith in Christ, and that water baptism is not required (i.e., he comes to believe in what Evangelicals teach on this subject), he is in direct contradiction with the official doctrines of the Church of Christ. He is not free to teach a Bible study on church property and denounce the importance of water baptism. Sure, he has the freewill to do it, but his pastor would correct him and if he continued in the same fashion he would be removed as a Bible study teacher in the Church of Christ.

Here’s another example. If an Episcopalian interprets the Bible to say that there is no Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and that the Eucharist is only a symbol of Christ and does not need to be reverenced, it is not considered ok in the Episcopal Church for him to open the tabernacle and use the Eucharist for snack crackers at a dinner party.

The fact that there are hundreds if not thousands of different Protestant denominations out there indicates that there is not an openness to doctrinal diversity within Protestantism. As soon as the Protestant Reformation began the Reformers themselves started debating doctrine.

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
On the other hand, for those who want uniformity, who are ready to accept the authority of what they believe is Christ through the tenets of ‘his church’, who look to the catechism for their articles of faith - pax vobiscum. Peace be with you.
I started off my latest string of responses by bringing up the problem with indifferentism (i.e., all religions are equally valid). According to you, the problem is with a demand for uniformity, and therefore we should not say that any religion is “wrong either substantially or in part” (Post #83).

I ask you to consider the following statements of Jesus, and ask yourself whether or not Jesus is expressing a desire for uniformity or indifferentism:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
no one comes to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6, RSV, emphasis added)

Notice that Jesus does not say, “I am one way among many”, or, “I represent only one kind of truth”, or “I am but one of many sources of life,” or “there are other people besides me who can take you to the Father.”

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth;
I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. (Matthew 12:34-36, RSV)

Here Jesus was predicting that those who believe in his gospel will find themselves at odds with non-believers, and that professing faith in him would be divisive even among close family members. Truth is divisive by its very nature. Once a person proclaims something to be true, then he must likewise proclaim that whatever is contrary to it is false, or else his belief is hypocrisy.
 
To all who have been patiently participated in this thread and/or have read it:

For your consideration, note the following things that Roy5 has stated in this thread…
Thanks to all those involved in this civil discussion.
Code:
 For the faithful who can believe in transubstantiation, fine. I wish I didn't have such serious doubts.
Ok, so Roy5 appreciates a “discussion” and wishes that he did not have doubts about the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
Obviously he is inviting feedback concerning his doubts.

Personally, I enjoy dialoging with informed and kind persons of any and all faiths as there always is more to learn from them.
Ok, so Roy5 enjoys “dialoging” with people of “all faiths.”
We can naturally presume that this includes dialoging with Catholics (seeing as he is participating on a Catholic forum).
Based on what he said, we can expect that he is willing to learn from our religious perspective just as he was willing to learn from the religious perspective of others.

Anyway, I think it best that I leave tghis thread. I’ve made my point and hardly expect many traditional Catholics to agree with it. Just enjoy dialoguing.
Ok, so Roy5 signs off from this thread by saying that 1) he has made his point, and that 2) he enjoys dialoging.

So now that I have given an overview of what Roy5 has stated in this thread, let us see one of several examples of what actually happened in this thread…

**1) In Rob5’s Seven Points back in Post #32, he initially presented his superstition/pagan argument against the doctrine of the Real Presence (note points number 1 & 5 therein).
  1. I gave a rebuttal of his superstition/pagan argument in Post #36 & Post #37.
  2. Rob5 ignored my rebuttal and instead simply presented his superstition/pagan argument all over again in Post #75 (calling belief in the Real Presence “too pagan and primitive”).
  3. In Post #81 I reminded him that I had already addressed his superstition/pagan argument in Post #36 & 37, and even gave handy links to them. And then I asked him point-blank, “What is your response to the specific points I made?”
  4. Rob5 once more chose to ignore my rebuttal of his superstition/pagan argument, and he ignored my request to specifically address it. Instead he chose to once again present his superstition/pagan argument (Post #83).**
So can anyone tell me how on earth does this truly represent “dialoging” and how on earth does this indicate that Rob5 has “made his point”?
 
I again challenge Roy5 to go and spend time in the true presence of Christ at adoration. Done with an open heart, one will, sooner or later, come to believe that Christ is there. Personally, I have experienced one too many miracles in prayer before our Lord to ever doubt His presence.

As to the True Presence, some are comfortable with the level of Christ that they currently experience, and are fearful of where the Truth might lead. The presence of the Holy Spirit will remove this fear, if they are true seekers.
 
Roy5 once more chose to ignore my rebuttal of his superstition/pagan argument, and he ignored my request to specifically address it. Instead he chose to once again present his superstition/pagan argument (Post #83).
So can anyone tell me how on earth does this truly represent “dialoging” and how on earth does this indicate that Roy5 has “made his point”?

It doesn’t. It represents typical Protestant pretense and deceit. Roy5 wants to be thought of as one who is fair minded, objective and a seeker after truth. The truth is, Roy5 has no interest in the truth. People like him don’t seek the truth because they’re afraid if they do, they might find it.
 
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top