Reason and faith are two proofs that God exists

[twb1621]

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ahhh, an honest expression of mentality. How refreshing.

 

[twb1621]

The life of Christ, interesting though it may be, is secondary to his death and resurrection. Which was a onetime event. I believe in the existence of the ancient Roman empire because I have seen it’s remains. I have seen Hadrian’s wall, the amphitheatre in Xanten, Germany. I have marched upon Roman roads.

First let me say I appreciate the consideration you put into reading the posts. That also shows regardless of your current beliefs, you are in fact looking to know what is true.

As far as the one time event, of course as you say it is the most critical event and the door to salvation. But this should not discount the rest of His ministry, as all of it was prophesized in the Old Testament many hundreds of years and thousands of years before His birth. These prophecies provide great support in asserting Jesus as the Messiah. Now, you acknowledge your beliefs in the history of the Roman Empire because of your exposure to its ruins so lets also realize that much of history is passed on through writings and we have no real evidence of the specific actions of man during these eras. By the same token, we have ongoing discoveries of archeological sites and ruins, which attest to the places and people involved in scripture also. Many have been verified and others too recent in discovery and awaiting verification. You can walk through the cities, visit the Roman garrison where Jesus was imprisoned or the room where the last supper took place and follow the steps Jesus walked to His crucifixion. Many thousands do regularly.

Sure there were churches in Jerusalem and Antioch, but my point is that the largest number of converts to this Jewish cult were pagans, not Jews.

Antioch expresses the pagan location however the first geographic location for the organizing of the Church was in Jerusalem. St. James the Less was the first assigned Bishop chosen because He was able to relate much better with the Hebrews in the teachings of the Messiah. Peter at the time could not be easily reached (no phone) as he continued to travel to establish Churches but on his return to the area the Apostles would usually meet in Jerusalem. Once Peter was able to establish his seat in Rome, that became the central point. The largest numbers of people were of pagan beliefs compared to Jew also.

Isn’t that the only thing Paul said he preached, Christ crucified?

Paul taught based more on the theology because he had not lived or accompanied Jesus to know first hand of all that occurred during Jesus’ ministry. His teachings are certainly of the Christian Faith but more of the events are described and explained in other books of the Gospels.

I’m not quite sure what this means.

Its like saying be careful what you wish for.

There is authenticity and history in many non-Christian sacred texts. It doesn’t mean their truth statements are valid though.

No other Faith has the recorded history (with ruins and ancient texts) through to today as the Catholic Church does including the thousands of years of the Old Testament and its prophecies which coincide and support the Messiah and the New Testament.

So I should earn advanced degrees in history, archeology, Near East studies, philosophy, theology, comparative religion, textual criticism in OT and NT in Hebrew, Aramaic, Coptic, Syriac, Greek, and Latin? I’m sorry, I don’t have that many years left to live.

You got a sense of humor, you go little buddy… No, that wouldn’t be necessary. You can read from those who are scholars in their fields for issues you have questions regarding. Many scholars throughout the history of the Church have joined together to arrive at the interpretations we have offered to us today.

Your original statement was “you who must choose to seek and learn the truth in order to then reconcile and enter into a relationship with God** before He does give you the proof **you demand.” I’ll grant the concept of God as a hypothesis, but in order to come to a conclusion requires proof, one way or the other.

Look at your personal relationships. You have to learn about a person in order to have a meaningful relationship with them. So you learn, you grow in awareness, with awareness you open yourself to God who will lead you to the strength to continue the growth in knowledge of Him until one day you will see it as it comes together. It’s like a puzzle.

continued next post

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post

That sounds too convenient. You’re saying that all those who do not believe in Christianity are not serious truth seekers. May I ask, if you did not “choose to accept the teachings all of a sudden”, what was it that made you believe?

I am saying many don’t stay with it and because they can’t comprehend, they give up and accept the idea there must not be a God. Lets recognize something here; if something is declared “supernatural”, many think that means it is not possible and therefore not acceptable. What is supernatural is that which is beyond our ability to explain or understand but obviously has occurred or existed. In actuality, what has been declared “supernatural” has in fact been recognized and accepted as existing. We all know there is much we do not understand or comprehend.

You can’t recognize the big picture until you join all the pieces. You get to a certain point when through grace a light goes on. So no, for some such as myself it is not an instant awakening. If you knew me before I converted you would not believe me to be a person who could find let alone have a relationship with our Lord. For me, I had to put it all together myself. I am a person who is suspicious of everything but with the experience and avenues to research what I wanted answer to. Plus God hit me with a 2X4 across the back of the head to wake me up so I would pursue and learn.

I had no religious upbringing. At one point in my life I was searching for answers to the big cosmic questions. I decided that all the books that I had read were* just so much straw,*, so I decided to immerse myself in one denomination. I chose the RCC because of it’s long, unbroken history. Also, at the time, eastern temples were almost non-existent where I lived, and I had no exposure to their truth statements.

I went through a very quick RCIA and was baptized according to the Roman rite. My present circumstances (unemployment) have forced me back to college. For me this is a source of income. I will be getting a living allowance, so it’s better than nothing.

I chose a Catholic university, because I’ve had experience with the rabid Marxist/Feminist professors that fill modern, western academia.

I talked to the chaplain there a week ago. He said that on occasion they have had older, agnostic students. He said they left with more questions than answers. According to your previous statement, these students must not have been serious enough.

Thank you for your sharing this with me. I can share more with you in a pm if you choose but I don’t want those whom I respect on this forum to get tired of hearing my personal story.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Ahhh, an honest expression of mentality. How refreshing.

Sorry but i’m not into preaching, i’m not 10 mate.

 

[twb1621]

Sorry but i’m not into preaching, i’m not 10 mate.

That’s ok Charlie, 10 or 100, it’s the accumulation of Truth that determines ones intelligence, not how long a person lives. Reasoning is the ability to utilize one’s intelligence. And actually I don’t preach, I say it as it is and communicate with those who are looking for information and who wish to communicate. Based on your response you must have misunderstood thinking I was posting to you…. But you were mistaken.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

That’s ok Charlie, 10 or 100, it’s the accumulation of Truth that determines ones intelligence, not how long a person lives. Reasoning is the ability to utilize one’s intelligence. And actually I don’t preach, I say it as it is and communicate with those who are looking for information and who wish to communicate. Based on your response you must have misunderstood thinking I was posting to you…. But you were mistaken.

No probs, Im not much into preaching anyway. I like a wee thing called evidence.

 

[twb1621]

No probs, Im not much into preaching anyway. I like a wee thing called evidence.

Seriously Charlie, so what’s keeping you from finding out then?
I did… and I regret the 25 years of ignorance I chose to live in when I found out the truth. God exists Charlie, but He isn’t going to come to you to prove Himself. Its your ego you have to swallow to find the way.

 

[erikd]

St. Thomas Aquinas said in his Summa Theologica:

“because since every effect depends upon its cause, if the effect exists, the cause must pre-exist”

He also stated the following:

“motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality.”

newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

Two very important philosophical arguments are made here. First is the simple idea of cause and effect. We have all experienced cause and effect throughout our lives. If we push the gas pedal, the vehicle moves. The gas pedal must pre-exist and other factors must be present for this pre-existing cause to become an effect. If we walk, run, or move, our brains are sending electrical signals to the rest of our bodies to perform the act we are performing. Our brains must exist for this act to happen. We must possess the necessary body parts to perform the actions that our brains are commanding us to perform. If we drop a piece of fragile glass from 10 feet above ground, it will shatter. The glass must exist and someone has to drop it for the effect to take place. These are all simple examples of cause and effect.

The second philosophical argument made here is that motion is an actual, physical act that once was only a potential act. All the effects described above were only potential effects until the act had been committed. Once the pre-existing causes are present, these conditions only have potential effects. The effects become actual when the causes are put into action. If one studies for a test one has the potential to pass the test. If, however, one does not take the test after studying, the potential has not been realized and therefore the actuality of passing the test does not take place. These are simple ideas with tremendous implications. These are also philosophies that encompass all of life, as we know it on earth.

If everything has a cause and effect, one must make the assertion that everything started from something. This would imply that nothing begins on its own or without an underlying cause of action or matter. This, in itself, is contradictory to the scientific date of the universe of almost 14 billion years ago because it implies that something always existed to form the gases and matter that eventually formed this energy density. Yet, if something always existed then the universe has no beginning date. The beginning date of the universe implies that the universe started from nothing, while science and logic tell us that this is impossible. Faith, on the other hand, tells us it is.

The simple idea of cause and effect is logically pointing out the unavoidable fact that the big bang theory is just a theory that may be missing its key finding. Water cannot boil on its own, it needs fire. Fire cannot start, it needs a spark and oxygen. Vacuum energy density cannot exist unless it becomes that matter from other underlying causes.

 

[Kwashic]

for me two things that prove that God exists are :

Ying and yang
Good and bad
left and right
up and down
dark and light
east and west
north and south
hot and cold
male and female
and so on…

That is the universal order of things. all ends ultimately in God or in Satan.
Everything comes in twos. You cant introduce or remove a third dimension to anything, for it would just be a degree of one or the other, lying somewhere on the spectrum. And if you could ignore these orders you would end up with the unlimited coverage of a globe, the shape of the planets, and probably the universe(s) too. Such orderly creation of everything cannot be a matter of coincidence. There is order in God’s creation and thats why Science is able to decipher some of it and change matter to achieve certain inventions, though they will never be able to achieve complete universal integrity of all inventions. When ever scientists change matter they create a problem of sorts. But God’s creation is perfect and cannot be achieved by mankind, who only perceives part of the total creation, but is foolish enough to believe Gods creation ends where man’s own mind ends, imagination and all. Sic.
Funny how some can believe in Ghosts, but dont believe in God. Some of them even believe in withccraft and the powers of dark forces and satan, but refuse to believe in God.
I believe God exists… yes me… sins and all. I will always believe in Him no matter how low my spirituality or how discouraged.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Seriously Charlie, so what’s keeping you from finding out then?
I did… and I regret the 25 years of ignorance I chose to live in when I found out the truth. God exists Charlie, but He isn’t going to come to you to prove Himself. Its your ego you have to swallow to find the way.

Dude all as ask for is evidence. The same evidence i would require to believe in any other theory of origins. Ego has NOTHING to do with, its ALL about evidence. The thing is every peice of evidence we have regarding origins points to natural explanations. Your god is going a damn good job of hiding.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

for me two things that prove that God exists are :

Ying and yang
Good and bad
left and right
up and down
dark and light
east and west
north and south
hot and cold
male and female
and so on…

That is the universal order of things. all ends ultimately in God or in Satan.
Everything comes in twos. You cant introduce or remove a third dimension to anything, for it would just be a degree of one or the other, lying somewhere on the spectrum. And if you could ignore these orders you would end up with the unlimited coverage of a globe, the shape of the planets, and probably the universe(s) too. Such orderly creation of everything cannot be a matter of coincidence. There is order in God’s creation and thats why Science is able to decipher some of it and change matter to achieve certain inventions, though they will never be able to achieve complete universal integrity of all inventions. When ever scientists change matter they create a problem of sorts. But God’s creation is perfect and cannot be achieved by mankind, who only perceives part of the total creation, but is foolish enough to believe Gods creation ends where man’s own mind ends, imagination and all. Sic.
Funny how some can believe in Ghosts, but dont believe in God. Some of them even believe in withccraft and the powers of dark forces and satan, but refuse to believe in God.
I believe God exists… yes me… sins and all. I will always believe in Him no matter how low my spirituality or how discouraged.

What???

Seems all we have here is; limited knowledge, illogical conclusions, and preaching.

I mean lets take dark and light. Light and dark are human constructs that describing the amount of light photons in the TINY % of the electromagnetic spectrum that our eyes can decipher. There is FAR more to it than you seem to know or understand.

As for perfect design LOL, heres your perfect design…

youtube.com/watch?v=C1cKD93W3yg

 

[Kwashic]

What???

Seems all we have here is; limited knowledge, illogical conclusions, and preaching.

I mean lets take dark and light. Light and dark are human constructs that describing the amount of light photons in the TINY % of the electromagnetic spectrum that our eyes can decipher. There is FAR more to it than you seem to know or understand.

As for perfect design LOL, heres your perfect design…

youtube.com/watch?v=C1cKD93W3yg

Typical scientist answer… so predictable. To scientists what we can decipher is only that which is proven. Regardless of whether your eyes can decipher it or not, darkness is to philosophy and religion more than meets your eye (no pun intended). Unfortunately darkness does not exist to a scientist who thinks only within the realm of the light spectrum.
In other words, while you think light and darkness to me means what my eyes can perceive or not, you in fact are in the dark (no pun intended again), for I am not limited to the light spectrum here. Infrared and others that your eye cannot see are still covered by God’s creation. They remain within light and dark. They are not outside the spectrum just because the human eye cannot see them. God’s eye can see them and has long beofer some scientist went oohh and ahhh! they were not created by man, and remain discoveries to the fickle scientist human mind that once argued the earth is flat. They even managed to convince the church of that, but hey, the church is full of human beings too. Some even scientist.

Understand that just because i am not a scientist who knows everything about the light spectrum does not mean God does not know either. For all you know, scientists are yet to discover more between what God calls light and darkness. Your own perception of light and darkness is limited by your scientist mind that makes you think we all live within the realm and prison of scientific fact. Escape your earthly intelligence and you will begin to uncover and understand religion and Christianity…and start to pray too.

Yes… there is far more to it than YOU see and understand. Think out of the science box.

 

[erikd]

Dude all as ask for is evidence. The same evidence i would require to believe in any other theory of origins. Ego has NOTHING to do with, its ALL about evidence. The thing is every peice of evidence we have regarding origins points to natural explanations. Your god is going a damn good job of hiding.

What about the argument of causation? Have you read my post 68? Might help to shed some light on areas that may be a little gray otherwise.

 

[twb1621]

Dude all as ask for is evidence. The same evidence i would require to believe in any other theory of origins. Ego has NOTHING to do with, its ALL about evidence. The thing is every peice of evidence we have regarding origins points to natural explanations. Your god is going a damn good job of hiding.

Charlie… Dudemyster…
If you are honest about what you say, you can start with the sciences. I am not sure what exactly you need to start with but I am sure you can find some learned information below;

Stephen Hawking ends his immensely popular book, A Brief History of Time, with several questions about what physics can tell us about “The Mind of God”.

“…We are now ready to answer Hawking’s questions about the Mind of God. It is the wave function of the universe. The wave function of the universe is in superspace that is literally beyond spacetime but it guides the evolution of our expanding universe in cosmic time. If we add the back-reaction of living matter on the wavefunction of the universe then we have a mechanism for communion with God.”

http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/godphys.html

http://www.2001principle.net/2005.htm

leaderu.com/real/ri9403/evidence.html


http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/Research.php

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth08.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/darek_barefoot/dangerous.html

infidels.org/library/modern/theism/design.html

Need more?

Perhaps you would like add information on evidence of the people and places that have been subject to the history of the Bible first;

The following links should shed some light on the possibility of theories being proved wrong as well as verification through archeology. This is a sample only.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050222113412.htm

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=2148.0.81.0

http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-archaeology-find-threatens.html

http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htm

 

[AndyHolland]

Do you know what “circular logic” is? This may not be the best argument to use.

It is only circular if you ignore Visual Agnosia and its specific reference in Mark Chapter 8 which is the point of this line of inquiry.

If your interested in evidence, seek it, find it, analyze it and do so with dispassion.

 

[AndyHolland]

Or an as-yet undiscovered scientific explanation. The absence of scientific explanation does not necessitate “God” to fill the gaps.

There are three forms of entropy, death, darkness - informational, organizational and energetic.

If one’s light is darkness - that is to say they honestly believe processes of death form life - processes of entropy - then “Great is that darkness.” If, on the other hand, they examine facts and evidence with dispassion, they find that life (the light spoken of by God through St. John’s Gospel) is direct evidence of eternal life - because life overcomes informational, organizational and - on a universal scale - energetic entropy.

Cells and DNA are amazing in their sophistication, structure, ability to adapt, reproduce, morph, collaborate. They form the most amazing machines in the universe- we are literally enfolded in amazing structures, in a living planet. In the beginning was the Word (like DNA) - and the Word was with God and the Word was God - and nothing that was made was made outside the Word.

Perhaps that is why George Washington Carver’s first assignment was to carve a clock - and William Paley, Charles Darwin’s best teacher, taught about the watch in a field. Clocks are wonderful examples of how the three forms of entropy work and are overcome. Somebody has to wind the watch.

 

[AndyHolland]

Any scientific explanation of the origin of the universe is inadequate, because it is bound in space/time.

Nonsense, your just not up to date with your sceince.

The answer must exist outside time, and it must be infinite.

Why and why?

Entropy is real - informational, organizational, and energetic. You should study informational entropy - excellent paper by James Clerc Maxwell - not a big fan of Darwin though…

For all we know (i don’t hold this belief) it could be a cycling universe. I’m guessing by infinite you mean ever lasting? You can have infinity in a closed set. For example there is and infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2. You can also have infinity at one end of a set. (,] or ,). I still dont see why it MUST be infinite? Infinite the way your describing it implies linked to time. For all we know there is no time outside our universe which makes infinty (the way you seem to be describing it) nonsensical outside our universe.

Also how on earth do you go from that to THIS…

**So far, we have at least deism. **

Even if i granted you those assumptions, all you have is a cause that is outside space and time and is infinite. You don’t have a supreme supernatural being. Your conclusion does not match your assumptions, your assumptions are incorrect, and it is all based on zero evidence. In short you have nothing but a wild unfounded claim.

Your claim stands rejected.

The proof of God is Jesus Christ. According to Father Abraham in the Gospels, if you do not believe the Scriptures, you will not believe a man, even a man raised from the dead. The Holy Scriptures are very logical and consistent, a wonderful legacy of the Church that can be studied in many aspects to ascertain the truth.

But if you aren’t willing to study the basis of much of English literature (Byron, Shakespeare) and that which educated men like Maxwell and Reimann loved, how can you claim to be well-read?

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Typical scientist answer… so predictable. To scientists what we can decipher is only that which is proven. Regardless of whether your eyes can decipher it or not, darkness is to philosophy and religion more than meets your eye (no pun intended). Unfortunately darkness does not exist to a scientist who thinks only within the realm of the light spectrum.
In other words, while you think light and darkness to me means what my eyes can perceive or not, you in fact are in the dark (no pun intended again), for I am not limited to the light spectrum here. Infrared and others that your eye cannot see are still covered by God’s creation. They remain within light and dark. They are not outside the spectrum just because the human eye cannot see them. God’s eye can see them and has long beofer some scientist went oohh and ahhh! they were not created by man, and remain discoveries to the fickle scientist human mind that once argued the earth is flat. They even managed to convince the church of that, but hey, the church is full of human beings too. Some even scientist.

Understand that just because i am not a scientist who knows everything about the light spectrum does not mean God does not know either. For all you know, scientists are yet to discover more between what God calls light and darkness. Your own perception of light and darkness is limited by your scientist mind that makes you think we all live within the realm and prison of scientific fact. Escape your earthly intelligence and you will begin to uncover and understand religion and Christianity…and start to pray too.

Yes… there is far more to it than YOU see and understand. Think out of the science box.

Outside the scientific box? Ah you mean myth and fairy tales. No thanks i prefer to live in a little place called reality.

Nothing COMES CLOSE to science when it comes to understanding the universe. On this front religion and philosophy are not fit to lace the boots of science. Think i am wrong? Then lets compare results!

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Entropy is real - informational, organizational, and energetic. You should study informational entropy - excellent paper by James Clerc Maxwell - not a big fan of Darwin though…

The proof of God is Jesus Christ. According to Father Abraham in the Gospels, if you do not believe the Scriptures, you will not believe a man, even a man raised from the dead. The Holy Scriptures are very logical and consistent, a wonderful legacy of the Church that can be studied in many aspects to ascertain the truth.

But if you aren’t willing to study the basis of much of English literature (Byron, Shakespeare) and that which educated men like Maxwell and Reimann loved, how can you claim to be well-read?

Im not convinced by stories, they do not constitute evidence for supernatural claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What does entropy have to do with anything?

 

[twb1621]

Outside the scientific box? Ah you mean myth and fairy tales. No thanks i prefer to live in a little place called reality.

Nothing COMES CLOSE to science when it comes to understanding the universe. On this front religion and philosophy are not fit to lace the boots of science. Think i am wrong? Then lets compare results!

Oh right, science never has to correct itself. Anyway, I hope you get something out of the links I provided as a starter. The information is provided by several scholarly individuals you SHOULD respect.