Reasons you love the Extraordinary Form

[cathguy]

As the Holy Father has stated that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and the Ordinary Form of the Mass are of the same rite they are both the “Mass of all Ages”.

This of course is self evidently true.

I think it is clear from the context what I meant however, unless one is interested in trying to simply find fault with others.

There is only one Mass. That is certain.

 

[cathguy]

I saw neither attacks to the EF nor attacks to those that love the EF. I saw some facts being offered.

I did however see you suggest that I am “hostile to the Latin Mass” and that was not only deeply offensive it’s totally inaccurate. You cannot deduce my feelings about the EF one way or the other based on what I have written until now: I too love the EF along with the OF.

If you love the EF that is wonderful! Thank you!

Can you share why? That would be in line with what I intended when I started this thread.

I do not think the other two posters were introducing facts.

The other points I answer here are outside scope. But apparently some are skeptical of my intent. Let me be plain.

There is only one Mass, and I am not in any way attacking the Holy Father or the Church.

I think the old Mass is superior, objectively, to the new the way the new is commonly celebrated. However, the new is perfectly valid and licit.

These are valid opinions for the faithful to hold. Michael Davies held them articulately throughout his scholarly career. Of Mr. Davies, our Pope, said this:

“I have been profoundly touched by the new of the death of Michael Davies. I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him to be a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially on the sacred liturgy.”

The SOLE purpose of this thread is positive. Let people come here and say what they love about the traditional Mass without the constant sniping and vitriol that has so characterized the traditional forum on CAF in the past.

Peace, and God love you!

 

[CradleCath]

This thread started out to be very good; then bpbasil showed up again. And fish90 throws cold water on the thread too.

Thanks for the try Cathguy, but this type of stuff is enough to drive me away from CAF.

Enough said.

Please don’t let them drive you away. We have already lost so many good, traditional Catholics because of those who post in this forum simply to attack & denigrate all that is precious to Catholics who are devoted to the Catholicism of the ages.

 

[cathguy]

Please don’t let them drive you away. We have already lost so many good, traditional Catholics because of those who post in this forum simply to attack & denigrate all that is precious to Catholics who are devoted to the Catholicism of the ages.

This is all too true! I stepped away from this forum for over a year! I second the request that you hang around!!!

 

[PAboy57]

Thanks for all the info on the TLM. It is most beautiful and I enjoyed reading all of your reasons. I was an altar boy in those days and enjoyed it very much. The mass today just doesn’t move me the way it did back then. It may be wrong to say that but that is how I feel. Thanks again.

 

[CradleCath]

I love many of the reasons that Cathguy listed, but the number one reason for me is the prayers. It took me a while to appreciate them as I had to familiarize myself with the Mass itself first, but after a while, when I had the time to read through the prayers, I was struck by how beautiful they are.

The prayer taken from Psalm 25 said at the Lavabo in particular is one that struck me as exceptionally beautiful:

"I will wash my hands among the innocent, and I will encompass Thine Altar, O Lord. That I may hear the voice of praise, and tell of all Thy wondrous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house, and the place where Thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked, nor my life with men of blood. In whose hands are iniquities, their right hand is filled with gifts.

But as for me, I have walked in my innocence; redeem me, and have mercy on me. My foot hath stood in the right way; in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord."

I paid special attention to this prayer this morning, simply because you had posted it here. It is indeed BEAUTIFUL.

 

[cathguy]

I paid special attention to this prayer this morning, simply because you had posted it here. It is indeed BEAUTIFUL.

I have Tallis’ Mass for Four Voices playing on iTunes and I read that prayer you just quoted (I must have read more quickly when it was first posted) and I felt transported.

BEAUTIFUL!

 

[Ghirardelli]

If you love the EF that is wonderful! Thank you!

Can you share why? That would be in line with what I intended when I started this thread.

I do not think the other two posters were introducing facts.

The other points I answer here are outside scope. But apparently some are skeptical of my intent. Let me be plain.

There is only one Mass, and I am not in any way attacking the Holy Father or the Church.

I think the old Mass is superior, objectively, to the new the way the new is commonly celebrated. However, the new is perfectly valid and licit.

These are valid opinions for the faithful to hold. Michael Davies held them articulately throughout his scholarly career. Of Mr. Davies, our Pope, said this:

“I have been profoundly touched by the new of the death of Michael Davies. I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him to be a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially on the sacred liturgy.”

The SOLE purpose of this thread is positive. Let people come here and say what they love about the traditional Mass without the constant sniping and vitriol that has so characterized the traditional forum on CAF in the past.

Peace, and God love you!

I appreciate the OF, the EF and the Eastern Divine Liturgies that I have been exposed to because each one gives me a different window, a different viewpoint of the Paschal Mystery. That helps my own spirituality a great deal.

To suggest however that one is objectively superior to the others is terribly erroneous. Yes, we may indeed have personal preferences, even very strong personal preferences but to suggest on liturgy is objectively superior directly says that the others are objectively inferior and that’s simply impossible.

When anyone makes such a claim about any sacrificial Catholic liturgy they lose credibility and can in some cases raise the ire of others. So by all means go ahead and voice your personal preference for one liturgy but please don’t ever suggest something that is simply impossible.

 

[cathguy]

I appreciate the OF, the EF and the Eastern Divine Liturgies that I have been introduced to because each one gives me a different window, a different viewpoint of the Paschal Mystery. That helps my own spirituality a great deal.

To suggest however that one is objectively superior to the others is terribly erroneous. Yes, we may indeed have personal preferences, even very strong personal preferences but to suggest on liturgy is objectively superior directly says that the others are objectively inferior and that’s simply impossible.

When anyone makes such a claim about any sacrificial Catholic liturgy they lose credibility. So by all means go ahead and voice your personal preference for one liturgy but please don’t ever suggest something that is absolutely impossible.

This, sadly, is a very serious misconception that is a) outside the scope of this discussion, and b) widely held.

First, you are not reading carefully in that you skipped this key clause in my post: the new Mass as commonly celebrated is objectively inferior. I hope you understand the incredible importance of this clause, which I included intentionally.

I would suggest the following books to get you started.

Michael Davies… anything he has written, but especially “Pope Paul’s New Mass” which is volume three of his Liturgical Revolution.

I would read Sacred Then Sacred Now by Dr. Thomas Woods, who also believes that the old Mass is superior in every way to the new, and is a very faithful Catholic with a TV show on EWTN.

I would take into account traditional Catholic teaching on the issue.

“The value of the Mass is dependent on the greater or lesser holiness of the reigning pope, the bishops, and the clergy throughout the world.” Not all Masses are equal.

This is very new to you I am sure. But what you have said is fundamentally wrong.

Peace and God love you!

 

[Indyann]

I appreciate the OF, the EF and the Eastern Divine Liturgies that I have been exposed to because each one gives me a different window, a different viewpoint of the Paschal Mystery. That helps my own spirituality a great deal.

To suggest however that one is objectively superior to the others is terribly erroneous. Yes, we may indeed have personal preferences, even very strong personal preferences but to suggest on liturgy is objectively superior directly says that the others are objectively inferior and that’s simply impossible.

When anyone makes such a claim about any sacrificial Catholic liturgy they lose credibility and can in some cases raise the ire of others. So by all means go ahead and voice your personal preference for one liturgy but please don’t ever suggest something that is simply impossible.

Well said!

 

[Onegin]

I paid special attention to this prayer this morning, simply because you had posted it here. It is indeed BEAUTIFUL.

Isn’t it? It took me a long while to be drawn into the prayers themselves but when you reflect on them either at Mass or elsewhere, the words are so beautiful, and they perfectly describe (to me) the awesome piety that the Priest brings to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Consider the Prayer after he consumes the Host following the Consecration:

“What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me? I will take the chalice of salvation, and call upon the Name of the Lord. I will call upon the Lord and give praise: and I shall be saved from mine enemies.”

And the prayer at the Last Blessing:

“May the tribute of my homage be pleasing to Thee, O most holy Trinity. Grant that the Sacrifice which I, unworthy as I am, have offered in the presence of Thy Majesty, may be acceptable to Thee. Through Thy mercy may it bring forgiveness to me and to all for whom I have offered it. Through Christ our Lord.”

When we dwell upon these and other words of the Mass, we can really get a sense that the Priest is there at the Mass not just to preside but to piously and humbly offer a Holy Sacrifice on our behalf! Imagine the extreme reverence with which a good Priest must approach the altar and say these words! As part of his vocation God entrusts the care of our souls to our Priest, and it is he who has the magnificent and daunting task of leading us all to heaven. We are on a long and difficult journey together but how wonderful is it for us to have such things as the Mass of all time and a good, pious Priest to show us the way!

Father Faber called the Mass “the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven.” He went on to say:
*
“It came forth out of the grand mind of the Church, and lifted us out of earth and out of self, and wrapped us round in a cloud of mystical sweetness and the sublimities of a more than angelic liturgy, and purified us almost without ourselves, and charmed us with the celestial charming, so that our very senses seemed to find vision, hearing, fragrance, taste, and touch beyond what earth can give”*

In the 1600’s Pope Urban VII, in describing the Mass said:

*"If there is anything divine among man’s possessions which might excite the envy of the citizens of heaven (could they ever be swayed by such a passion), this is undoubtedly the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, by means of which men, having before their eyes, and taking into their hands the very Creator of heaven and earth, experience, while still on earth, a certain anticipation of heaven.

How keenly, then, must mortals strive to preserve and protect this inestimable privilege with all due worship and reverence, and be ever on their guard lest their negligence offend the angels who vie with them in eager adoration!" *

How true.

 

[ProVobis]

To suggest however that one is objectively superior to the others is terribly erroneous.

How about better time-tested? Or longer developed? Or more artistic? Or more inspiring?

In fairness to the OP, it needs a few hundred years to develop to a level where it is not perceived as just another fad, where it would be equal in ways other than it is just because the Pope says it is. Don’t get me wrong, the Mass is the Mass and I don’t disagree with the Pope but you can’t possibly have an millennium-long-term influence on society with a forty year-old liturgy.

 

[cathguy]

How about better time-tested? Or longer developed? Or more artistic? Or more inspiring?

In fairness to the OP, it needs a few hundred years to develop to a level where it is not perceived as just another fad, where it would be equal in ways other than it is just because the Pope says it is. Don’t get me wrong, the Mass is the Mass and I don’t disagree with the Pope but you can’t possibly have an millennium-long-term influence on society with a forty year-old liturgy.

How about the notion that it more clearly communicates the truths of the faith?

Or that it inspired the building of our beautiful Cathedrals?

Or that its music drove the development of the music of Western Civilization?

What about saying Tallis, or Palestrina, or Monteverdi are objectively superior to Pete Seeger and 60s folk music? Is that too an “impossible” statement?

I am trying to be as respectful and friendly and civil as possible. However, the notion that folk music is as good for Mass as Bach or Tallis, or etc. etc. and that versus populum worship communicates the truths of our faith as well as ad orientum worship are just plain silly.

To all posters: this is the traditional Catholic forum. I started this thread as a way for Catholics who love the old Mass to post what they love about it. I am asking that those who wish to discuss other issues start a new thread, or talk about it in areas of CAF that may be more appropriate, such as the area on the sacraments.

 

[paperwight]

I would take into account traditional Catholic teaching on the issue.

“The value of the Mass is dependent on the greater or lesser holiness of the reigning pope, the bishops, and the clergy throughout the world.” Not all Masses are equal.

What is your source for this? It sounds really wrong to me.

Surely Catholic teaching is that Sacraments are independent of the worthiness of the officiating priest?

Above all. the value of the Mass is the value of Our Lord’s sacrifice i.e. infinite.

 

[cathguy]

What is your source for this? It sounds really wrong to me.

Surely Catholic teaching is that Sacraments are independent of the worthiness of the officiating priest?

Above all. the value of the Mass is the value of Our Lord’s sacrifice i.e. infinite.

Several sources are given.

These sited articles:

Pohle-Preuss, The Sacraments, published in London in 1916, bearing both Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, vol. II, pp. 388-9.

M. de la Taille, The Mystery of the Faith, vol. II (London, 1950), Thesis XXVI, pp 233-41

Appeared in:

The Teaching of the Catholic Church (London, 1956) G. Smith Editor (also bearing Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur)

All of this was cited in Michael Davies “Cranmer’s Godly Order” which is Volume 1 of his liturgical revolution series. Remember that Michael Davies work on the Liturgy was praised by our current Pope, Benedict XVI.

The fact of the matter is that all Masses validly celebrated are valid and licit, but NOT all Masses are equally pleasing to the Lord.

Peace.

 

[cathguy]

What is your source for this? It sounds really wrong to me.

Surely Catholic teaching is that Sacraments are independent of the worthiness of the officiating priest?

Above all. the value of the Mass is the value of Our Lord’s sacrifice i.e. infinite.

A concrete example:

If a priest in mortal sin celebrates the Eucharist it is still a valid Mass and the faithful have fulfilled their Sunday obligation, but the saying of that Mass is also a sacrilege on the part of the Priest, and is offending to God.

Make sense?

 

[fish90]

We don’t know this for fact. Reverence is in the eye of the worshipper. You may find that a very “irreverent” (yelling, talking, screaming, laughing, dancing) Mass in Africa or Asia has much broader appeal and furthermore probably has more support of the Vatican more than either the OF and EF have in the US or Europe or South America, which are losing worshippers, except for maybe the Hispanics, Poles, and some others.

I concede the reverence point, yet in terms of Latin use and Gregorian Chant I am unable to agree that the current form of the Mass agrees with Sacrosanctum Concillium. Then again, I do not have a degree in liturgy.

 

[cathguy]

I concede the reverence point, yet in terms of Latin use and Gregorian Chant I am unable to agree that the current form of the Mass agrees with Sacrosanctum Concillium. Then again, I do not have a degree in liturgy.

Don’t think you need a degree in liturgy to make that point…

Such a degree, being a lay liturgist or something, would probably prevent you from seeing this self-evident truth!

 

[archangel04]

This, sadly, is a very serious misconception that is a) outside the scope of this discussion, and b) widely held.

First, you are not reading carefully in that you skipped this key clause in my post: the new Mass as commonly celebrated is objectively inferior. I hope you understand the incredible importance of this clause, which I included intentionally.

I would suggest the following books to get you started.

Michael Davies… anything he has written, but especially “Pope Paul’s New Mass” which is volume three of his Liturgical Revolution.

I would read Sacred Then Sacred Now by Dr. Thomas Woods, who also believes that the old Mass is superior in every way to the new, and is a very faithful Catholic with a TV show on EWTN.

I would take into account traditional Catholic teaching on the issue.

“The value of the Mass is dependent on the greater or lesser holiness of the reigning pope, the bishops, and the clergy throughout the world.” Not all Masses are equal.

This is very new to you I am sure. But what you have said is fundamentally wrong.

Peace and God love you!

I see you have sources, but what does the Church say about the Mass? Is our
“new mass” less then the TLM?

 

[Adeodatus]

I appreciate the OF, the EF and the Eastern Divine Liturgies that I have been exposed to because each one gives me a different window, a different viewpoint of the Paschal Mystery. That helps my own spirituality a great deal.

To suggest however that one is objectively superior to the others is terribly erroneous. Yes, we may indeed have personal preferences, even very strong personal preferences but to suggest on liturgy is objectively superior directly says that the others are objectively inferior and that’s simply impossible.

When anyone makes such a claim about any sacrificial Catholic liturgy they lose credibility and can in some cases raise the ire of others. So by all means go ahead and voice your personal preference for one liturgy but please don’t ever suggest something that is simply impossible.

Wait. So in your mind a Mass where all the communicants kneel and receive the Lord on the tongue from a priest in the midst of reverence isn’t objectively superior to one where the Eucharist is being passed out like tokens by women in pantsuits to the sound of 60’s protestant tunes?