Reasons you love the Extraordinary Form

[Ghirardelli]

\3.- In these times in which liturgical abuses seem to be frequent, the tridentine mass is a guarantee against some of those abuses and controversies.\

**I could give an answer to all your points, but I will limit myself to this one.

There were frequent liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass, too. But they were of another kind than are seen today.**

You bring up a good point. There were HORRIBLE abuses when the EF was celebrated in larger numbers. The Masses were often “burned-through” at in auctioneer’s pace complete with skipped or shortened prayers. I remember ushers joking with the priest before hand sayings things like “we need a good collection, father, keep it short.” Hardly reverent.

Even today some of the older folks in the town I live in rate a Mass largely by its length. The shorter the better.

 

[Ghirardelli]

I am curious to find where the term “Mass of all Ages” comes from. Is it in an actual Church document or is it a term coined by individuals?

The “Mass of all Ages” did not come about until the 16th century as each diocese had their own missal, yes many if not most of those missals were alike but they all where not.

Then there is the issue of the Rites of the Religious Orders.

As I said, though, just curious.

Me too. I’m not sure if some are aware of it but that lable alone is not only inaccurate, it’s highly offensive considering what the Pope has said about the OF and the EF plus the history and richness of the Eastern liturgies.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brother, I don’t have a single idea about where the term came from. I can say this. I am more than aware from an historical viewpoint that there were several different rites across western Europe during the Middle Ages. I freely admit I know very little about Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

I grew up in firmly Roman Catholic New Orleans. I am of French, Irish, German and English ancestry. Spain was here as were folks from Sicily, Italy, and the Philippines. The Cubans came in 1960 and the Vietnamese in the 70s. Unlike urban centers in the north and midwest, our Catholicism united us to the point where St. Patrick’s Day and St. Joseph’s Day are celebrated in a joint celebration. The paradigm here is vastly different and it was the “Mass of the Ages” that united us.

I was never so shocked as when I was stationed in Chicago in the '70’s with its ethnic parishes. The parish in which I grew up was multi-cultural. My godfather was Sicilian and I believed that I was Sicilian growing up. The important part was that we were all Catholic and it was the “Mass of the Ages” that united us. We could all
attend Mass and be able to participate.

I have never maintained that the TLM is superior to the NO. I have, however, seen the abuses and frankly, they pain me deeply because I can remember a time when those abuses did not exist. I believe that I am not the only one who believes this.
Even more frankly, I agree with CradleCath. I feel like I am constantly under assault simply because I happened to be quite happy with the HMC that I grew up with. I have prayed for 45 years that we would regain our senses and the Holy Father has seen and addressed the prayers of those of us who hold similar beliefs.

Finally, I constantly wonder why Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who are not subject to the kinds of abuses I have seen with my own two eyes, resent my deep felt wish that we Roman Catholics return to some semblance of Roman Catholic orthodoxy or the “defenders of the faith” who frequent this forum and see me as some sort of ultra radical traditional Catholic. Che Guevara I am not.

I again state that I have no desire to see everything return to the way it was in 1965. I have repeatedly said that I would not inflict upon today’s parishes what was done to us back then. I am not the only one who feels this.

This is the Traditional Catholicism forum. I get really tired of having my voice silenced by folks who object to the way I was raised. We are no threat to you and I would deeply appreciate it if our views were considered instead of constantly being questioned and railed against.

 

[brotherhrolf]

You bring up a good point. There were HORRIBLE abuses when the EF was celebrated in larger numbers. The Masses were often “burned-through” at in auctioneer’s pace complete with skipped or shortened prayers. I remember ushers joking with the priest before hand sayings things like “we need a good collection, father, keep it short.” Hardly reverent.

Even today some of the older folks in the town I live in rate a Mass largely by its length. The shorter the better.

Yeah, and I didn’t serve Low Masses with just Father and me there before our parish church was built and he never rushed. And, yeah, I didn’t know which NO parish had the quickest Mass on Saturday afternoon that was finished in 20 minutes when I was in college in the early 70s. Spare me the mythology.

 

[malphono]

You bring up a good point. There were HORRIBLE abuses when the EF was celebrated in larger numbers. The Masses were often “burned-through” at in auctioneer’s pace complete with skipped or shortened prayers. I remember ushers joking with the priest before hand sayings things like “we need a good collection, father, keep it short.” Hardly reverent.

Even today some of the older folks in the town I live in rate a Mass largely by its length. The shorter the better.

Oh please …

Yes, we all know about the “30-minute specials” in the “old” days. And you give the impression that this was a rampant problem. Trust me, it was not.

But guess what? The “30-minute specials” were not restricted to the pre-conciliar era: they’re still around in the OF. One difference, though, is that the post-concilar variety are more like “20-minute specials” since there are often plenty of EMHCs around to speed-up communion.

 

[CradleCath]

Yeah, and I didn’t serve Low Masses with just Father and me there before our parish church was built and he never rushed. And, yeah, I didn’t know which NO parish had the quickest Mass on Saturday afternoon that was finished in 20 minutes when I was in college in the early 70s. Spare me the mythology.

Absolutely, Brotherhrolf!!! And I, attending DAILY Mass, from 1945-1960, that’s 7,300 Masses in 5 different parishes… didn’t see a ONE of these 20 minute Masses, because they were all held at different places??? And where were all of those old ladies who said their rosaries during Mass. They weren’t in KC. Missouri, they weren’t in
St. Louis, Missouri, they weren’t in Kansas, didn’t find any in Dallas, during the short time I was there…nor, now get this…San Francisco (where one of my Grandmothers lived) when they still used the Mass of the Ages, However…what they’ve done there with the Novus Ordo isn’t to be believed.

americansfortruth.com/news/more-san-francisco-nuttiness-catholic-archbishop-gives-communion-to-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence.html

 

[ProVobis]

I have, however, posted against the NOTION that implies that the EF–or any other authorized rite–is somehow the superior one.

Then why do I feel that the EF is inferior to all the Eastern Rites you keep mentioning?

 

[Palomas]

Why I love the Tridentine Latin Mass.

When I first heard about this mass, I was originally attracted to the idea of 1) the priest facing the altar, as opposed to the people. This was a new concept to me, so I wanted to check it out. Before attending for the first time, I found out that 2) many women cover their heads. Again, I was intrigued. When I actually did attend the mass, I found I was able to 3) focus more on the praying (even though it took me a handful of times to figure out the order of the mass). When it came time for communion, this was the first time I had ever 4) received the Lord on the tongue, much less in a kneeling position. I don’t know what it was about making that simple gesture, but it affected me profoundly (in a positive way) by connecting me to our Lord and to the idea that He has given himself to us.

There are many other things that I have come to love and appreciate since this first experience, but for me these are probably the biggest.

 

[j_o_r_g_e]

\3.- In these times in which liturgical abuses seem to be frequent, the tridentine mass is a guarantee against some of those abuses and controversies.\

**I could give an answer to all your points, but I will limit myself to this one.

There were frequent liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass, too. But they were of another kind than are seen today.**

I’m sure there were abuses in the Tridentine Mass in the past. But the way things are now, when the tridentine mass is a rarity and not many priests are either willing or prepared to say it properly and in full communion with Rome, attending a tridentine mass gives you a fair guarantee that the priest means what he’s doing. That is not a lesser factor as the intention of the priest is a necessary condition for the sacrament to take place.

 

[Onegin]

You bring up a good point. There were HORRIBLE abuses when the EF was celebrated in larger numbers. The Masses were often “burned-through” at in auctioneer’s pace complete with skipped or shortened prayers. I remember ushers joking with the priest before hand sayings things like “we need a good collection, father, keep it short.” Hardly reverent.

Even today some of the older folks in the town I live in rate a Mass largely by its length. The shorter the better.

Man, those are HORRIBLE abuses.

I’m lucky that I have the opportunity to attend local parishes where we only have minor problems like the Priest bragging about his iPhone during the homily, the Eucharistic prayers ad libbed and translated into inclusive language, the altar rails stripped out, the laity giving homilies, the guitar strumming drowning out the consecration, the Eucharist being distributed out of earthenware bowls by teenagers, etc.

I can’t think of much worse than a rushed TLM.

Anyways, I don’t know how many times the OP needs to repeat this before people here understand, but this isn’t a thread about whether or not you like the TLM. **This is a thread for those who love the TLM to describe why they love it. If you don’t love it, don’t post. Not that hard. **

We cool? Ok.

 

[ProVobis]

Even today some of the older folks in the town I live in rate a Mass largely by its length. The shorter the better.

Increase the fast to 3 hours before Communion. That should keep the communion lines shorter and Mass can move on.

 

[Ghirardelli]

Yeah, and I didn’t serve Low Masses with just Father and me there before our parish church was built and he never rushed. And, yeah, I didn’t know which NO parish had the quickest Mass on Saturday afternoon that was finished in 20 minutes when I was in college in the early 70s. Spare me the mythology.

It’s not mythology. BURNING through Sunday Mass was very common in the EF back when it was celebrated in substantial numbers. Not once have I attended an OF Mass that was burned through in that manner. Not once.

A senior priest does a nice job of explaining this at adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html

 

[Ghirardelli]

Man, those are HORRIBLE abuses…

Yes they certainly are. BURNING through a Mass is indeed horrible. Worse if parts are left out, shortened or substituted. One must wonder what sort of culture or situation led to the burning through of Masses?

 

[Ghirardelli]

One final comment.

It’s terribly wrong for people to infer that others do not love or at least like the EF just because their comments are questioned for veracity. That’s monumentally bad form and it’s immediately apparent to anyone who has learned to think in a critical manner.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s not mythology. BURNING through Sunday Mass was very common in the EF back when it was celebrated in substantial numbers. Not once have I attended an OF Mass that was burned through in that manner. Not once.

Burning, shmurning. You’re right but I wouldn’t call it an abuse. For one thing, you didn’t have many going to communion and the sermons were shorter. They** had** to be shorter because they had to cram like seven Masses between 6am and 12:30pm to accommodate the crowds. Remember that Saturday was not an option for one’s obligation and very few Masses were scheduled after 1pm Sunday for reasons I can’t remember.

As far as the text goes, there is much more to the EF than OF. Take away the sermon, the communion, and the hymns, and anyone can do the OF ten minutes tops. But it wouldn’t bother me. I don’t see the big deal. If I feel cheated, I’ll stay longer and pray.

 

[brotherhrolf]

It’s not mythology. BURNING through Sunday Mass was very common in the EF back when it was celebrated in substantial numbers. Not once have I attended an OF Mass that was burned through in that manner. Not once.

A senior priest does a nice job of explaining this at adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html

And I was tripping on LSD in the early 70s and never, ever experienced a 20 minute NO vigil Mass. Right. I never ever experienced a "speed"Mass with the TLM - not once.

 

[ProVobis]

Me too. I’m not sure if some are aware of it but that lable alone is not only inaccurate, it’s highly offensive

And you expected what on a Traditional Catholicism forum? Promotion of fabricated modern liturgies?

 

[brotherhrolf]

One final comment.

It’s terribly wrong for people to infer that others do not love or at least like the EF just because their comments are questioned for veracity. That’s monumentally bad form and it’s immediately apparent to anyone who has learned to think in a critical manner.

And you are questioning my credulity? I served way too many 6 am Masses when my parish was carved off of our mother parish around 1964. I spent two years with just Father and me before the good sisters arrived. Never, EVER, have I seen a burned through TLM. I can name you the parish in New Orleans which had a 20 - 25 minute NO Mass on Saturday afternoon. Stop the mythology.

 

[cathguy]

NO Catholic sacrificial liturgy is “objectively superior” to ANY other as defined by the Church. For that to be possible it would necessarily require the Church to foist some “objectively inferior” sacrificial liturgies upon us and She does not work this way.

You may not agree with this but you would be mistaken to hold such a view. Until you come to grips with the fact it’s likely to cause you some consternation.

Now if you want to discuss HOW different sacrificial liturgies are actually celebrated I would be happy to do that but that’s an entirely different subject.

Please understand… you are building are strawman here.

If you would like to continue this discussion I would like you to please answer these questions.

1. What could POSSIBLY be wrong with saying that the EF of the Mass is superior to the OF as… and here is KEY clause, as the OF is commonly celebrated?
2. If a priest is in a state of mortal sin, and says Mass, is that priest committing a sacrilege? If so, is this Mass as pleasing to God as a Mass that is celebrated by a Holy Priest, in the state of grace?
3. I have not now, nor ever, said that the OF is in and of itself “inferior” to the EF. What I HAVE said, and will say again and again, is that the EF is superior to the OF as the OF is commonly celebrated. What is wrong with this assertion?
4. If you TRULY love the EF, why have you come into the Traditional Catholic Forum, and posted all of these non-sequiturs on a thread that was started here just as means for those who love the Ancient Mass, the Gregorian Mass, the Mass of the Ages, celebrated with beautiful music, ad orientem, and with reverence to share their reasons why?

Now… please understand. If the OF was celebrated as the Vatican II council documents actually call for it to be celebrated, ad orientem, with Latin and Chant given a respectful place, in a manner that is in CONTINUITY with the Churches larger tradition… if celebrated in the vernacular with a good and solid translation that is theologically true and accurate. If all this were to occur in the OF, then OF COURSE, it would be in no way problematic.

Yet, the OF is NOT celebrated this way. Thus, I hold, that the OF, as it is commonly celebrated, is objectively inferior to the EF.

I have made this point several ways.

1. Why do you continue to gloss over this point, and accuse me of saying that the OF is somehow invalid etc.?
2. Again, if you TRULY love the Mass of the Ages, then why post in the traditional forum attacking those who understand that whatever Mass it is, it MUST be celebrated in a manner in continuity with the larger Catholic tradition? Some masses are full of abuses that are WRONG and not pleasing to God.

 

[cathguy]

And you are questioning my credulity? I served way too many 6 am Masses when my parish was carved off of our mother parish around 1964. I spent two years with just Father and me before the good sisters arrived. Never, EVER, have I seen a burned through TLM. I can name you the parish in New Orleans which had a 20 - 25 minute NO Mass on Saturday afternoon. Stop the mythology.

In fairness to the young poster (he is evidently quite young) I think he is addressing me here, and not you.

Peace!