Reasons you love the Extraordinary Form

[cathguy]

Please understand that I was not posting in order to cause harm or to be cool. In my understanding, the topic of the OF and the EF can become uncharitable and I wanted to express my concern for those who think the EF is the best form of the Mass and wished to provide evidence that it was not perfect based upon the opinion of Pope Benedict. I presented views of the Holy Father from a website that I cited and this caused much harm. I apologize for having offended anyone.

And I apologize for misreading your intent and content. That is the problem with this mode of conversation. Please accept my apology as well.

I believe I did not express my thoughts correctly when I typed: “I love the lack of creative thinking that can take place among most of cathguy’s list.” I meant no ad hominem (I do not even know you ) nor sarcasm. My intent was to agree with most of what you wrote.

Again, I apologize for misreading you.

For the record, I find that the liturgy as it is expressed today did not follow the Council Father’s intentions for the Mass. I believe that one of the great things that needs to happen for the Church to rise above the problems of the world is to return to what the Council Father’s intended. After this, the Church would be like it used to be only 40 years ago. I find this means taking what was good of the missal of 1962, yet allowing reform not an overhaul, because that is what the Council Father’s intended. The reformed of the Mass should have been continual NOT A BREAK!

Bingo!

Finally, I find the EF to be a great Mass. Here’s why:

1.) Sense of the Sacred
2.) Order
3.) Ad orientum
4.) Latin
5.) The priest administers Holy Communion.
6.) Focus on God not on community
7.) Lack of creativity

I do find that the reform of the reform of the liturgy will bring the Mass to the continuity it requires in order to be worthy of worshiping God.

Lastly, what was so wrong with this? youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64

Yep, I agree with all of this.

The only place we will differ is here: I hold that the old Mass is objectively superior to the new, as the new is commonly celebrated.

I also have sympathy with, and want to express support for, those Catholics who believe that the old Mass is objectively superior to the new Mass in every way, and stand with them. They have experienced excommunication and worse in the years post the Council, and have often suffered from the Church even as they suffered for Her, and in that, they deserve our support!

Peace!

As for the video of the solemn High Mass at Easter narrated by the great Fulton Sheen…

What could POSSIBLY be wrong with that?

 

[Adeodatus]

I love the whole thing, but what most stand out for me:

1. Communion while kneeling, on the tongue, from a priest
2. Ad Orientem posture… the priest and the people approaching God
3. Silence, reverence, a prayerfulness that seems in continuity with our Hebrew roots
4. Kneeling in the Creed and the Last Gospel

Those are the things that stand out the most, but I could gush on about it!

Oh, and…

no liturgical dance, guitars, hippie hijinks, etc.

 

[ProVobis]

The prayer taken from Psalm 25 said at the Lavabo in particular is one that struck me as exceptionally beautiful:

One of the reasons **I heard **why this and Psalm 42 and John’s Gospel were removed from the Liturgy circa 1965 was that the vernacular translations made them sound too mushy. Although I do agree they are beautiful in both Latin and Elizabethan English, apparently the majority couldn’t figure out how to make it work in the new vernacular. So goodbye TLM prayers.

 

[ProVobis]

For the record, I find that the liturgy as it is expressed today did not follow the Council Father’s intentions for the Mass.

We don’t know this for fact. Reverence is in the eye of the worshipper. You may find that a very “irreverent” (yelling, talking, screaming, laughing, dancing) Mass in Africa or Asia has much broader appeal and furthermore probably has more support of the Vatican more than either the OF and EF have in the US or Europe or South America, which are losing worshippers, except for maybe the Hispanics, Poles, and some others.

 

[cathguy]

We don’t know this for fact. Reverence is in the eye of the worshipper. You may find that a very “irreverent” (yelling, talking, screaming, laughing, dancing) Mass in Africa or Asia has much broader appeal and furthermore probably has more support of the Vatican more than either the OF and EF have in the US or Europe or South America, which are losing worshippers, except for maybe the Hispanics, Poles, and some others.

Some questions in response to this post:

Why, when the question was raised in Council that the documents may lead to widespread versus populum worship, did the Council fathers erupt in laughter?

Did the Council call for Latin and Chant to be given primacy of place in the liturgy?

Did the Council call for versus populum celebration of the Mass?

Also, in light of the spirit of this thread, I think we should try to let people say why they love the old Mass without critiquing them.

 

[malphono]

One of the reasons **I heard **why this and Psalm 42 and John’s Gospel were removed from the Liturgy circa 1965 was that the vernacular translations made them sound too mushy. Although I do agree they are beautiful in both Latin and Elizabethan English, apparently the majority couldn’t figure out how to make it work in the new vernacular. So goodbye TLM prayers.

I doubt this very much. The editio typica of the Novus Ordo is, of course, In Latin. The vernacular versions are merely translations (well, except for the current ICEL English version), and since there are oodles of vernaculars, it’s highly unlikely that the cabal (consilium) was much concerned with them. Their agenda was far more insidious.

Now, while I am not in any way defending that group and its actions, I will say that Psalm 42 (not, as some will contend, the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar in their entirety) was originally a sacristy devotion, meaning that it was said there privately before Mass. It was never part of the Ambrosian, Dominican, Carthusian, or Carmelite Rites. Even in the Roman Rite, it was not said for all Masses: note, e.g., that it was absent in all Requiem Masses. Similarly, the “Last Gospel” (despite the fact that, after Trent, it made its way to all but the Carthusian and Mozarabic Rites) was originally said privately during the recessional, after Mass was concluded. (I believe a vestigial reference to the original practice remained in the pre-conciliar Roman Pontifical.)

 

[ProVobis]

It was never part of the Ambrosian, Dominican, Carthusian, or Carmelite Rites. Even in the Roman Rite, it was not said for all Masses: note, e.g., that it was absent in all Requiem Masses. Similarly, the “Last Gospel” (despite the fact that, after Trent, it made its way to all but the Carthusian and Mozarabic Rites) was originally said privately during the recessional, after Mass was concluded. (I believe a vestigial reference to the original practice remained in the pre-conciliar Roman Pontifical.)

Is it really that important that they are included in the Mass Proper? Maybe someone can say the Canon of the Mass is the only thing important, take out everything else too. But that’s their opinion only.

Asperges Me isn’t a part of the Mass. Nor are the Prayers after Low Mass. Nor is the closing hymn or other pieces of music before or after Mass. But they are nice to have and do help in praying the Mass and give it a deeper meaning, I think.

 

[stuart12]

I love it when silence descends after the Sanctus. You know that something is going to happen.

 

[ProVobis]

Why, when the question was raised in Council that the documents may lead to widespread versus populum worship, did the Council fathers erupt in laughter?

I was not aware of this. What kind of laughter? What else did they laugh at?

Not ridiculing, not critiquing, just asking.

 

[ljubim]

Every Mass is an occurence of heaven touching earth. The beauty of the Latin Mass does not forget this. The awful distractions of many OF’s (not all) detract from the sacrifice, and try to make the holy mundane and entertaining. But going to an EF and seeing the extraordinary beauty and lovely reverence makes you feel drunk with love for Our Lord. Heaven’s going to look like an EF Mass

 

[Ghirardelli]

Why can’t us who enjoy the TLM; who grew up with the TLM; who had no problems with the TLM; not be attacked by our own fellow Roman Catholics much less clergy from our separated brethren?

We are only four posts into the thread and the thread is already disrailed. What was intended to be a positive thread has become a source of bickering and minutea.

Bishop Basil; we are entitled to use our own terminology. It is for those of us who subsist in the Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church to correct our brethren. I have learned a great deal of history from you but you consistently derail threads with your own personal agenda.

Why?

I am so disgusted that I am not going to post any more.

I think it’s because the OP made some statements in the original positing that are false. When that happens some will view the post not as a listing of reasons but as a questionable list that requires refutation.

 

[Ghirardelli]

This thread started out to be very good; then bpbasil showed up again. And fish90 throws cold water on the thread too.

Thanks for the try Cathguy, but this type of stuff is enough to drive me away from CAF.

Enough said.

It seems that bpbasilphx and fish90 simply brought some facts to the discussion and they did so in a fairly tactful manner. A discussion that began with a questionable original posting, at least in my opinion. Those facts may offend you but they are still facts and the OP should have taken them into consideration when formulating the opening posting.

 

[cathguy]

It seems that bpbasilphx and fish90 simply brought some facts to the discussion and they did so in a fairly tactful manner. A discussion that began with a questionable original posting, at least in my opinion. Those facts may offend you but they are still facts and the OP should have taken them into consideration when formulating the opening posting.

Thank you for your post.

Please read the forum rules Ghirardelli. If you are hostile to the Latin Mass, it is probably best you do not post in this forum, as it is the Traditional Catholicism area. This thread was started as place for traditional Catholics to share why they love the Latin Mass. That is all, and it is absolutely not questionable in any way.

Peace!

 

[cathguy]

I think it’s because the OP made some statements in the original positing that are false. When that happens some will view the post not as a listing of reasons but as a questionable list that requires refutation.

Again, please read the forum rules. In the OP I listed why I love the Latin Mass.

How can that possibly be “false.”

Again, if you are hostile to the Latin Mass, I ask you to refrain from attacking those who post in this thread.

Peace!

 

[Ghirardelli]

It seems that bpbasilphx and fish90 simply brought some facts to the discussion and they did so in a fairly tactful manner. A discussion that began with a questionable original posting, at least in my opinion. Those facts may offend you but they are still facts and the OP should have taken them into consideration when formulating the opening posting.

Thank you for your post.

Please read the forum rules Ghirardelli. If you are hostile to the Latin Mass, it is probably best you do not post in this forum, as it is the Traditional Catholicism area. This thread was started as place for traditional Catholics to share why they love the Latin Mass. That is all, and it is absolutely not questionable in any way.

Peace!

Look at what I wrote. I am in no way “hostile to the Latin Mass.” In fact I find it offensive that you would even suggest that I am based on what I have written. That said when I began reading this thread it was clear that two people (bpbasilphx and fish90) where trying to bring some facts to the discussion.

Look at again what I wrote. For you to suggest I am “hostile to the Latin Mass” based on what I have written says a great deal negative about you.

 

[Ghirardelli]

I think it’s because the OP made some statements in the original positing that are false. When that happens some will view the post not as a listing of reasons but as a questionable list that requires refutation.

Again, please read the forum rules. In the OP I listed why I love the Latin Mass.

How can that possibly be “false.”

Again, if you are hostile to the Latin Mass, I ask you to refrain from attacking those who post in this thread.

Peace!

Enough with the misdirection and spin!

If you honestly want answers to your questions read the comments of bpbasilphx and fish90. Engage them further if you want a deeper explanation.

I’m not “hostile to the Latin Mass.” You suggesting that I am simply because I do not agree with what you post is horribly offensive. Stop it.

 

[cathguy]

It seems that bpbasilphx and fish90 simply brought some facts to the discussion and they did so in a fairly tactful manner. A discussion that began with a questionable original posting, at least in my opinion. Those facts may offend you but they are still facts and the OP should have taken them into consideration when formulating the opening posting.

Look at what I wrote. I am in no way “hostile to the Latin Mass.” In fact I find it offensive that you would even suggest that I am based on what I have written. That said when I began reading this thread it was clear that two people (bpbasilphx and fish90) where trying to bring some facts to the discussion.

Look at again what I wrote. For you to suggest I am “hostile to the Latin Mass” based on what I have written says a great deal negative about you.

Peace and God love you!

Please understand that this is a place for those who love the Traditional Catholic Mass to post WHY they love the Mass. That is it.

Both posts you mention are entirely outside the scope, as is the side debate you are attempting to start here.

Please, this is a place for people for people to post why they love the old Mass, not post attacks on the old Mass, or attack those who love the old Mass.

Peace!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As the Holy Father has stated that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and the Ordinary Form of the Mass are of the same rite they are both the “Mass of all Ages”.

 

[Ghirardelli]

Peace and God love you!

Please understand that this is a place for those who love the Traditional Catholic Mass to post WHY they love the Mass. That is it.

Both posts you mention are entirely outside the scope, as is the side debate you are attempting to start here.

Please, this is a place for people for people to post why they love the old Mass, not post attacks on the old Mass, or attack those who love the old Mass.

Peace!

I saw neither attacks to the EF nor attacks to those that love the EF. I saw some facts being offered.

I did however see you suggest that I am “hostile to the Latin Mass” and that was not only deeply offensive it’s totally inaccurate. You cannot deduce my feelings about the EF one way or the other based on what I have written until now: I too love the EF along with the OF.

 

[ProVobis]

It seems that bpbasilphx and fish90 simply brought some facts to the discussion and they did so in a fairly tactful manner. A discussion that began with a questionable original posting, at least in my opinion. Those facts may offend you but they are still facts and the OP should have taken them into consideration when formulating the opening posting.

Facts? Tactful? Questionable posting? Those? Facts? They? Facts? Them?

What on earth are you talking about? I think we all know what the “Mass of Ages”, as it is commonly referred to on this forum, is, whether it went back 2000 yrs, 1600 yrs, or 400 yrs.

And it is a fact that Pius V, in Quo Primum, never referred to the better-called Gregorian Mass as a “new rite,” not in Latin anyway.