Reasons you love the Extraordinary Form

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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
I have, however, posted against the NOTION that implies that the EF–or any other authorized rite–is somehow the superior one.
Then why do I feel that the EF is inferior to all the Eastern Rites you keep mentioning?\

**ProVobis, please tell me where I ever said that I felt the EF was inferior.

ALL authorized rites of the Church are equal.

This is something I have insisted upon.

But I DO disagree with the notion that the EF has an intrinsic and automatic superiority over any other.

How YOU feel about the various rites is something I have no control over.**
 
ProVobis said:
And you expected what on a Traditional Catholicism forum? Promotion of fabricated modern liturgies?
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**All liturgies are to a certain extent fabricated, because humans were involved in their composition.

There is a pious legend about the Liturgy of St. James being dictated by the Lord Himself to his step-brother, the first Bishop of Jerusalem. (It’s not a story I put stock in.)

And NOBODY claims this for any other Liturgy, even for the EF.

Allow me to add that there is MORE to Traditional Catholicism than a fondness or preference for a specific form of the Sacred Liturgy.**
 
ByzCath said:
I am curious to find where the term “Mass of all Ages” comes from. Is it in an actual Church document or is it a term coined by individuals?

The “Mass of all Ages” did not come about until the 16th century as each diocese had their own missal, yes many if not most of those missals were alike but they all where not.

Then there is the issue of the Rites of the Religious Orders.

As I said, though, just curious.
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The only reference I have seen to the term “Mass of the Ages” (and I can’t find it) was that the term came from France, from the Traditionalists there.
 
otjm said:
The only reference I have seen to the term “Mass of the Ages” (and I can’t find it) was that the term came from France, from the Traditionalists there.
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**The term merely shows how the users FEEL about the Extraordinary Form.

It conveys no objective information about it.

ANY authorized Eucharistic Liturgy of the Church is the “Mass of the Ages,” becuase they ALL accomplish the Mystery of the consecration of the Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.**
 
cathguy said:
Here is a positive thread for people to give their reasons why they love the Traditional Latin Mass.

My list:

It is said ad orientem
It is in latin
It has beautiful old chants
Its prayers are deep and theologically rich
For 2000 years it underwent only organic development.

What are your reasons?
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While I would have worded it ‘reasons you love Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Missal’ an intersting topic nonetheless

Here are a few…
Prayed ad orientem
Antiphons and ordinaries chanted in Latin
The Roman Canon used
Insence and bells
Communion kneeling at an altar rail and on the tongue
No four hymn sandwhich 👍
Quietness!

Vat II onwards never abrogated these things. Perhaps the Church could mandate them but that’s another thread 🙂
 
cathguy said:
Some questions in response to this post:

Why, when the question was raised in Council that the documents may lead to widespread versus populum worship, did the Council fathers erupt in laughter?
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Perhaps it would be better to take it to another thread, so as not to derail this one, but this is not true. Ad populum worship predated the Second Vatican Council and even Cardinal Ottaviani (of intervention fame) had celebrated ad populum (I hasten to add, in a non Roman church not oriented to the east) .

As regards Michael Davies’ books his points in soem areas are a bit stretched. Unfortunately also, he evidently did not have access to the documents of the Concilium which were in the care of the CDW and the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. Those documents show that many of his inferences (some of which he says are inferences) had other motivating causes.
 
bpbasilphx said:
All liturgies are to a certain extent fabricated, because humans were involved in their composition.
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There’s a difference between organic growth and eruption of a new order, don’t you think? And it wasn’t I who first called the New Order a banal fabrication.
 
bpbasilphx said:
Allow me to add that there is MORE to Traditional Catholicism than a fondness or preference for a specific form of the Sacred Liturgy.
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Exactly. But how do you Easterners (you, Aramis, ByzCath et al) know what’s it’s like to lose your customs and traditions? Maybe some of the posters on this forum are over-enthusiastic about bringing back the old rite and putting down the new, but there’s nothing really abnormal about such internal politics, is there? Does it make you feel superior because you don’t have these differences over in the Eastern rites? Ok, name one Eastern practice which was abolished or trivialized or marginalized or undermined after the council. Then maybe I’ll rethink what you attempt to accomplish posting on the Traditional forum besides putting everyone down.
 
The topic of this thread is “Reasons you love the Mass of Ages” not Eastern rites or reasons why one challenges every minor detail about the TLM. I meant what I said in the “sticky” at the top of the Traditional Catholicism forum page. A word to the wise…
 
Thanks for asking.
  1. It’s the greatest piece of art in the Western civilization if not the entire world.
  2. It’s inspired perhaps the most beautiful music in the world.
  3. It’s in Latin, the language of the Church, and a language whose meaning doesn’t change.
  4. It links us to many martyrs and saints who attended the same Mass.
  5. It has the power to unify the Catholic Church and bring everyone to the same worship place at the same time.
 
cathguy said:
Please understand… you are building are strawman here…
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No way.* Please understand what a strawman argument is before you accuse someone else of making one. My former (now retired) pastor has long contended that one of the most important things that impact Catholics today is that they have absolutely no exposure to the study of philosophy and more specifically the study of logic. Even at a high school level. I have always agreed with him on this matter.
 
Ghirardelli said:
No way.* Please understand what a strawman argument is before you accuse someone else of making one. My former (now retired) pastor has long contended that one of the most important things that impact Catholics today is that they have absolutely no exposure to the study of philosophy and more specifically the study of logic. Even at a high school level. I have always agreed with him on this matter.
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Give it a rest, Sport.
 
I am not trying to derail the thread but I believe I have a valid observation. I had a classmate in college who is Eastern Orthodox. She invited a bunch of us Roman Catholic types to attend the Holy Saturday Liturgy at her church. This was in 1976. I cried because I realized just how much we had lost that quickly. Chant, ceremony, the sense of history (I can easily see where the Divine Liturgy can make the same claim of “of the Ages”), and, for me, a palpable sense of the divine which is so rare today in our parishes.

When we entered church all those years ago, we entered into the Divine Presence. It was absolutely unthinkable to talk in church. All was quiet before Mass and one could pray without having to block out chit-chat and the greeters in the narthex. Same thing goes for after Mass.

Music? Oh, be still my soul. What riches we have. I count myself blessed to have been able to sing and master some of the choral masterpieces we have that we just ditched in 1965. And no I am not a music major. I can barely read music but I have a keen ear, a love for the music, and I can memorize my part. I sang Gregorian chant in grade school in the children’s choir. No, we weren’t singing from the Liber Usualis but we kids mastered Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster and Agnus Dei. The kids today are equally capable but the myths of “oh, it is in Latin” and “oh, it is too complex” reign supreme.

When I was in the Navy in the early 70s, I explored an old Catholic church in Spain by myself. The priest came out and asked me what I wanted. In my halting Spanish, I replied that I had been an altar boy. He said to me “Introibo ad altare Dei” to which I replied “Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam”. He took me on the grand tour of that ancient church and I got to see historic vestments, chalices, etc. The TLM united HMC.
 
Ghirardelli said:
No way.* Please understand what a strawman argument is before you accuse someone else of making one. My former (now retired) pastor has long contended that one of the most important things that impact Catholics today is that they have absolutely no exposure to the study of philosophy and more specifically the study of logic. Even at a high school level. I have always agreed with him on this matter.
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My my, are we trying to be insulting?

Given the fact that I have studied logic and reason formally, and have a graduate degree, I know full well what straw-man argumentation is.

Here is the straw-man you have constructed:

You accuse me of arguing that the Extraordinary Form is objectively superior to the ordinary form. This is misrepresentation of my position. Here you create an argument to refute that I haven’t actually made. I NEVER SAID that the EF is superior to the OF as they are both the Mass.

What I HAVE said, and what you consistently fail to address, is that the EF is superior to the OF as the OF is commonly celebrated. This key clause, you refuse to acknowledge, and instead you consistently refute an argument I haven’t even made! (And make a great many uncharitable assumptions while you are at it!)

This is a major distinction which you chose to ignore, apparently purposefully.

Do you believe that the liturgical improvisations, the tabernacle moved off to the side etc. etc., do you believe all of these things are good, and can give depth and meaning to the Mass? Do you approve of these abuses?

If so, you will take umbrage with what I have said. I repeat myself again.

I have said that the EF is superior to the OF as the OF is commonly celebrated.

If you INSIST on arguing I am saying something I am not (building a strawman) then I simply point out that not only are you derailing this thread, but you are perhaps being rash and a little illogical to boot! It is something to consider.

In all sincerity I say, Peace, and God love you. I think it would best for both of us if I, once again, stepped away from this forum.

Catholic Answers is simply not the sort of place traditional Catholics should frequent.

Peace!
 
brotherhrolf said:
I am not trying to derail the thread but I believe I have a valid observation. I had a classmate in college who is Eastern Orthodox. She invited a bunch of us Roman Catholic types to attend the Holy Saturday Liturgy at her church. This was in 1976. I cried because I realized just how much we had lost that quickly. Chant, ceremony, the sense of history (I can easily see where the Divine Liturgy can make the same claim of “of the Ages”), and, for me, a palpable sense of the divine which is so rare today in our parishes.
When we entered church all those years ago, we entered into the Divine Presence. It was absolutely unthinkable to talk in church. All was quiet before Mass and one could pray without having to block out chit-chat and the greeters in the narthex. Same thing goes for after Mass.
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I could go anywhere, to any country and it is the same beautiful Mass in the same familiar language. Not that I travel really, but I love the Catholicity of that. Our “mother tongue”, so to speak.
 
While I have only been to two Latin masses (one being a High Mass the other a Low Mass) I loved the high mass because I loved the beauty of the service. I loved the incense and the bells and just everything that the church did during the service. Regrettably the church that has the service is Indianapolis’ best kept secrete, and when I’m in town it is just so much easier to go to the Cathedral (which while the mass is in English it is still very well done.)
 
I love seeing women in veils during Mass. It is so attractive in my opinion.
 
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