Reasons you love the Extraordinary Form

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Based on my experience with the Tridentine Mass, here is why I love it. I’d like to stress that this is my own experience of moving from Novus Ordo Mass to Tridentine Mass, and the difference in the Priests as well. I understand that this is not the case everywhere.

Communion at the Altar rail, kneeling, on the tongue
  • The Priest facing the Altar, offering Mass on our behalf
  • The sermons - always thoroughly researched, unwavering teaching, no jokes about football
  • The strict adherence to detail, and the absolute reverence of the Priests
  • Gregorian chanting, and no guitar music.
  • Confession is not a psychological analysis, or a way to tell us we’re not that bad, but a sacrament, with proper instruction in how to avoid future sin
  • The effect it has had on me, personally.
To further explain the last point, I was always Catholic and always believed, always accepted the Pope and the Catechism. But I found it hard to keep going to Mass every Sunday, and kept falling into other habitual sins. Since attending the Latin Mass, I’ve had almost no problem attending every Sunday, and many of the habits of years have been broken. I’ve developed a keen desire to learn and practice my faith as best I can, and my fear of knowing the truth has disappeared. I am confident in saying that it has been my attendance at the old rite of Mass that has effected these changes in me.
 
What is so evident from the attitudes displayed in the replies to this thread is that it reminds me of baying at the moon! The liturgy is the human and divine expression of our outreach to God and God’s reaching down to us.Because partly human, there will always be aspects that will distract someone to create a platform from which to exercise our tendency to bicker.Meanwhile,the Magisterium of our Church provides us with a spectrum of beautiful and effective prayers and sacraments with which to present ourselves before the Face of God ,without elbowing our neighbour(yes,I’m in Scotland) to achieve a ‘higher place’. Listen to Jesus:“Well then, every scribe who becomes a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out from his store things both old and new.”(Mt 14:52). Yet again:“The Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness. For when we cannot choose words in order to pray properly, the Spirit Himself expresses our plea in a way that could never be put into words, and God who knows everything in our hearts knows perfectly well What He means, and that the pleas of the saints expressed by the Spirit are according to the mind of God.”(Rom.8:26,27) What harm then to encourage, and express, a particular and approved form of prayer that that we love without someone hoving to with criticism which is below the dignity of a christian. Peace of Christ be with you.
 
Ghirardelli said:
No way.* Please understand what a strawman argument is before you accuse someone else of making one. My former (now retired) pastor has long contended that one of the most important things that impact Catholics today is that they have absolutely no exposure to the study of philosophy and more specifically the study of logic. Even at a high school level. I have always agreed with him on this matter.
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You are insulting not only Cathguy, but most of the people on this thread. You’ll find that Traditional Catholics, as a whole, are very knowledgeable. We all see what you are doing & that is creating a straw man argument. That’s a fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “create a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. The original position here is the sentence, "The EF is superior to the OF** as it’s celebrated today** The strawman argument is considered a cheap shot on CAF. So, you are making yourself look really bad. 😦
 
I have never been to an EF Mass that was “burned through” as you put it…and I have never been to one that other abuses took place in…certainly didn’t see any clowns or other non-sense which has been DOCUMENTED to have taken place in countless OF Masses
Ghirardelli said:
It’s not mythology. BURNING through Sunday Mass was very common in the EF back when it was celebrated in substantial numbers. Not once have I attended an OF Mass that was burned through in that manner. Not once.

A senior priest does a nice job of explaining this at adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html
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The Form of holy Mass, now called Extraordinary is just that- i.e. it has an extra dimension.
Now, many have, and doubtlessly will continue to dispute this fact, but the Holy Father named it so for a reason.

I was re-introduced to the ‘Mass of Ages’ by a very holy, humble priest [a civil & Canon Lawyer, with two doctorates]. He successfully argued his case with his bishop, over 20 years ago and established a Traditional Mass Centre in my local church.
This church had been abandoned to a toy library [in the basement - the top storey, containing altar etc, locked] and whilst borrowing toys for my children I used to pray for its’ return.

After originally questioning this new priest, as to whether he should not offer the New Order of Mass as well, I was convinced by his reply. He has taught me much over these years as I once again came to love him & the Mass offered according to the 1962 Missal of Pope John XXIII. This of course was the Missal in universal use [everywhere in the world] until 1969/1970.

Upon becoming a formal Theology student {at the suggestion of my holy priest - having done post- graduate work in Ethics] I argued for Summorum Pontificum in 2007 in a research paper for a Post Graduate Diploma Theology, in a somewhat hostile environment. Have to say that my Catholic supervisor priest, though not in agreement with me, was charming and did his best to be of assistance.

My parish priest is now 83 years old, still offering the ‘Mass of Ages’ twice daily, 4 times on Sundays, with Confession/Reconciliation before and after each Mass.
Ours is a very multicultural little parish [about 300], with both national and international visitors, situated in an area named Titirangi - meaning “fringe of heaven” in Maori. [So called many decades before the re-introduction of the Mass of Ages].

Thank you for your patience in reading this post - sent in a spirit of love and with an invitation to join us anytime you may visit these beautiful islands.
God bless! www.edsnz.org
 
diane_taylor said:
The Form of holy Mass, now called Extraordinary is just that- i.e. it has an extra dimension.
Now, many have, and doubtlessly will continue to dispute this fact, but the Holy Father named it so for a reason.

I was re-introduced to the ‘Mass of Ages’ by a very holy, humble priest [a civil & Canon Lawyer, with two doctorates]. He successfully argued his case with his bishop, over 20 years ago and established a Traditional Mass Centre in my local church.
This church had been abandoned to a toy library [in the basement - the top storey, containing altar etc, locked] and whilst borrowing toys for my children I used to pray for its’ return.

After originally questioning this new priest, as to whether he should not offer the New Order of Mass as well, I was convinced by his reply. He has taught me much over these years as I once again came to love him & the Mass offered according to the 1962 Missal of Pope John XXIII. This of course was the Missal in universal use [everywhere in the world] until 1969/1970.

Upon becoming a formal Theology student {at the suggestion of my holy priest - having done post- graduate work in Ethics] I argued for Summorum Pontificum in 2007 in a research paper for a Post Graduate Diploma Theology, in a somewhat hostile environment. Have to say that my Catholic supervisor priest, though not in agreement with me, was charming and did his best to be of assistance.

My parish priest is now 83 years old, still offering the ‘Mass of Ages’ twice daily, 4 times on Sundays, with Confession/Reconciliation before and after each Mass.
Ours is a very multicultural little parish [about 300], with both national and international visitors, situated in an area named Titirangi - meaning “fringe of heaven” in Maori. [So called many decades before the re-introduction of the Mass of Ages].

Thank you for your patience in reading this post - sent in a spirit of love and with an invitation to join us anytime you may visit these beautiful islands.
God bless! www.edsnz.org
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Thank you for this beautiful post. It is wonderful.

I visited the website, and I doubt I will be in your neck of the woods any time soon. But it is wonderful to see the traditional Mass thriving in New Zealand!
 
\
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post

ProVobis, please tell me where I ever said that I felt the EF was inferior.
Implications speak very loudly, in my book.\

**Then you are either hearing things that don’t exist or you are reading the wrong book.

**
 
CradleCath said:
And the reasons you love the Mass of the Ages are?
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What’s being objected to is the meaningless, limited, and loaded term “Mass of the Ages”.

As I said, ALL masses celebrated according to the approved liturgies and rubrics of the Church are the Mass of the Ages.
 
ProVobis said:
Exactly. But how do you Easterners (you, Aramis, ByzCath et al) know what’s it’s like to lose your customs and traditions? Maybe some of the posters on this forum are over-enthusiastic about bringing back the old rite and putting down the new, but there’s nothing really abnormal about such internal politics, is there? Does it make you feel superior because you don’t have these differences over in the Eastern rites? Ok, name one Eastern practice which was abolished or trivialized or marginalized or undermined after the council. Then maybe I’ll rethink what you attempt to accomplish posting on the Traditional forum besides putting everyone down.
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ProVobis, I think you should not speak of things of which you clearly know nothing.

Some Byzantine Catholics have gone so far (though not lately) as celebrating en face.

On the Eastern Catholic Forum, there have been threads discussing with great disapproval the Divine Liturgy recension of the Byzantine Metropolia of Pittsburgh (aka Ruthenians). I cannot tell anything major in the text, beyond substituting “Theotokos” for “Mother of God,” but I DO understand that the music is quite different, and there is considerable unhappiness with it. (Adapting music intended for one language to another will alway be negotiable, and will never please all parties.)

One Byzantine woman complained in a Church paper that using incense so much “makes us look like Orthodox, not like Catholics.” Others have rued the suppression of public rosaries before the Liturgy and the restoration of the true Eastern practice of a part of the Divine Office celebrated.

As far as “trivialized or marginalized” practices, there has also been a relaxation of fasting laws in many Eastern jurisdictions to the point that they are as merely token as the actual requirements in the Latin Church.

Will the shortening of Holy Week Services be considered “trivial or marginal” by yourself? I think it’s a serious matter.

If you go to

www.kaldu.org

you will see the present recension of the Chaldean Liturgy (aka “Revised Mass”). I’m in no position to say how it differs from the previous liturgical paxis of the Chaldean Catholic Church, but it’s obvious from a letter by their bishop that some screws are having to be turned and pressure put on those dragging their heels. It wouldn’t surprise me if there have been groans and wails from some quarters in that Church, too.

I know there have been several revisions in the las 20 years or so of the English version of the Maronite Catholic liturgy. How radical, I don’t know. Ask a Maronite.

There are even some very strict Orthodox (mostly Old Calendarists) who feel that frequent Communion by the laity is an “abandoning of tradition.” Others (if not the identical voices) have said the same thing about congregational singing, as well.

Will these matters do for starters?

Maybe these are mild compared with what happened on the other side of the Tiber, but the difference is that of degree, not of kind.
 
ProVobis said:
There’s a difference between organic growth and eruption of a new order, don’t you think? And it wasn’t I who first called the New Order a banal fabrication.
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So now you’re calling an approved rite of the Church, publicly celebrated by Pope Benedict himself, a banal fabrication.
 
I beg your pardon, Bishop. I freely admit that I know very little about Eastern Christianity. When you say that the music is “different”, do you mean that electric guitars, keyboards, and “praise music” have been introduced?

I seem to recall that we used to use a good bit of incense before 1965. I also know that just about the only place I see incense used today is in my cathedral parish except when liturgical dancers are inserted wafting bowls of incense at parish’s 100th and 200th year anniversary celebrations. Do Ruthenians have liturgical dancers?

I know what Theotokos means. Isn’t that simply returning to the original Greek?

Fasting laws were relaxed in the Latin church before Vatican II. I can remember my mother telling me how she had to weigh food in the 40s during Lent and the fast was for 12 hours not the three I grew up with.

Shortening of Holy Week services? As in all the prayers and invocations we used to say on Good Friday that are said at my cathedral parish but not at my local geographic parish? Or all of the readings on Holy Saturday? Or the Exultet being chanted instead of merely read?

Thank you for the link, BTW. It was quite informative.

I don’t know enough about Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Christianity but I grew up with what I grew up with and there has been a massive sea change since 1965 on this side of the Tiber. I wonder how well it would sit with a Ruthenian parish to have the amped guitars and drum sets accompanying the Divine Liturgy singing praise music that I would expect to hear at the local Southern Baptist church? Unless I misunderstood, I thought I understood that the eastern churches were primarily a capella chant except for the Russian Orthodox who have some really nice sacred motets which I’ve at least got to sing in English translations.

Have they ripped out the iconostasis in eastern churches? Removed the icons to make the churches more acceptable to our separated Protestant brethren?

That “difference of degree” you so blithely gloss over is the difference between a nuclear weapon and a cherry bomb.

And I think that if you give a closer reading of Pro Vobis’s post, you will see he is simply stating that “banal fabrication” existed. I also know that the Holy Father when he celebrates an OF Mass does not suffer liturgical dancers, praise music, or, indeed Communion in the Hand. Does he not expect comunicants to kneel, too?
 
cathguy said:
Here is a positive thread for people to give their reasons why they love the Traditional Latin Mass.

My list:

It is said ad orientem
It is in latin
It has beautiful old chants
Its prayers are deep and theologically rich

What are your reasons?
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Amen to the above.

For the past 71 consecutive Sundays. i ve attended a TLM Solemn High Mass. It spoils you! The reverence, the dignity, the beauty of it all are overwhelming. Theres an “Otherness”. i know almost no Latin, but it`s enough to just be there and soak it all up.

During the third or fourth Mass there, a thought came into my mind: IT SEEMED THAT I COULD FEEL THE CHURCH`S HEARTBEAT, and it was strong and healthy. That feeling has grown stronger.

The “Asperges me” can make you misty eyed, and when there are the ladies and the gents choirs singing and chanting…it makes your spirit soar.

There are hardly any walking sticks in sight, but there are plenty of babies and toddlers. Young families predominate, and lots of young people come in on their own. Mantillas aren`t compulsory, but there are plenty of them.

There`s the quiet peace embrace in the Sanctuary, but not the disruptive “sign of peace” “for” the rest of us.

Holy Communion time…the Communion rail, receiving Him only from the consecrated hands of a priest. Like a feather landing on the tongue. The paten.

Thanks be to God for the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter! These fellas are up to date in the right way: eg they have devotion to the Divine Mercy, with a permanent picture of “Jesus, I trust in You” in the church. They`re knowledgeable and approachable.
You can feel the love and respect that the laity have for the priests, and vice versa.

Best of all: Pope Benedict is a patron of it.

The Mass is the Mass is the Mass, but the thought of going back to the OF only is a bit unsettling. A lot of us didn`t appreciate the TLM until we lost it.

PS
Dont say were still at war!
 
bpbasilphx said:
What’s being objected to is the meaningless, limited, and loaded term “Mass of the Ages”.

As I said, ALL masses celebrated according to the approved liturgies and rubrics of the Church are the Mass of the Ages.
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I agree that the Mass of the Ages refers to all approved liturgies. I have said this several times. You are objecting to… what exactly?

Here is what you fail to understand, perhaps because you are not Roman Catholic?

You are Orthodox. Your Mass IS the Mass of the Ages. Your liturgy is free from the distortions and abuses that characterized the Mass after the Second Vatican Council.

We Romans are not so lucky. Our new mass AS IT IS COMMONLY CELEBRATED is seriously problematic. The reasons it is problematic as it is commonly celebrated, and your most recent post, are ENTIRELY outside the scope of this thread, so we should discuss them elsewhere.

Here I will only say this: I have an aquaintance who studies liturgy. He is a traditional Catholic. He said to me once “a family member is Russian Orthodox. Have you seen their liturgy? It is gorgeous. 2000 years and no “development.” None.”

Now, I think he was overstating his case a little bit, but underlying this is a very important point.

Yes, I agree the term “Mass of the Ages” applies to THE MASS.

But you are Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. You have chant. You have ad orientem worship. You did NOT experience the deformations that arose after the second Vatican Council.

With all due respect, we DID experience them. And what we are left with, AS IT IS COMMONLY CELEBRATED, resembles a protestant service MUCH MORE than it resembles the beautiful Russian Orthodox liturgy. It looks, in its exteriors, little like the Mass of the Ages (although it certainly IS the Mass). “You believe as you pray.” Our deformed liturgy has borne rotten fruit.

We had a Mass, a Mass in continuity with the past, that most certainly DID look like Orthodox liturgy, because it too was free of the massive abuses that took place (for whatever reason) after the Council.

For some reason, despite a warning from the moderator, you are still here, building the straw man that I am saying the Tridentine Mass is the only Mass of the Ages.

I find this constant harping without paying attention to what has actually been written problematic.

Speaking for myself, all I want is a reverent liturgy celebrated in continuity with the past, with the focus on Jesus Christ (and therefore ad orientem), and beautiful music, and chant, and incense.

One final point:

This is a forum for traditional Catholics, and here you are, an member of the Orthodox Church, harping on us and preaching at us. Why? What is your motivation?

It cannot be, as you have said, that the term “The Mass of the Ages” offends you, because I have stated directly, SEVERAL TIMES, that the Orthodox liturgy IS the Mass of the Ages. So what is your motivation?
 
bpbasilphx said:
So now you’re calling an approved rite of the Church, publicly celebrated by Pope Benedict himself, a banal fabrication.
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Benedict doesn’t celebrate the NO in a banal way.

He tries to point the way to authentic liturgical celebration of the new Mass…

Very few listen.

A couple of reasons why people would say the new Mass is a banal fabrication:
  1. The reform of the liturgy was top down, not bottom up. It was not a result of organic development as in the past, but was rather imperially foisted on the laity.
  2. The English translation, given us by ICEL, was horrible and banal and poor. This is a serious problem. The Vatican has remedied it, but is giving the Church lots of time to implement the new translation. Also, several priests are loudly prepared to simply ignore the new translation.
  3. The new Mass is celebrated with tons of innovations Vatican II never called for. The innovations, largely improvisations that were encouraged in the years following the Council, are ALL “banal fabrications.”
Bishop, we are not saying what you say we are saying (at least, I am not). Perhaps you should stop coming here trying to pick fights, and instead post what you love about the Mass of the Ages.

As I have said, your Mass IS the Mass of the Ages. So I invite you to share what you love about traditional celebration of the eastern liturgy. THAT would be on topic.
 
bpbasilphx said:
So now you’re calling an approved rite of the Church, publicly celebrated by Pope Benedict himself, a banal fabrication.
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And I attend the NO celebrations. No, I’d never come come up with a term like that. But, I’m sure when Cardinal Ratzinger called it a banal fabrication, he didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
With all due respect, no book. Your tone of some of your posts comes through loud and clear.
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**You were the one to use the book metaphor, now you’re trying to wiggle out of it.

Or do you think that criticism of an ATTITUDE towards the Extraordinary Form is the same thing as criticism of the EF itself?

Have you grasped that distinction?**
 
\I agree that the Mass of the Ages refers to all approved liturgies. I have said this several times. You are objecting to… what exactly?\

**So you do admit the Ordinary Form is the Mass of Ages, too?

Then in the title of your thread you are calling “Mass of Ages”…what exactly?

BTW, everthing you said about the Extraordinary Form in your primal post can (or should) be applied to the Ordinary Form–even down to incense you mentioned later.**
 
\ Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Exactly. But how do you Easterners (you, Aramis, ByzCath et al) know what’s it’s like to lose your customs and traditions?\

BTW, ByzCath may talk about his background if he wishes, but for your information heis a member of a religious order of the Roman Church, as can be told from his signature.
 
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