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gama232
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“comic relief” actually means something. Promote Church teaching.
Reconciling Humani Generis with the human genetic data showing that there never were just two first parents
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EndTimes
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Bring on the clowns! 
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EndTimes
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I know exactly what you mean.
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rossum
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Indeed. Here you go using your own personal definition of macroevolution and expecting all scientists to follow you. They won’t. All you are doing is using Humpty Dumpty arguments by redefining words to suit you.
We agree. Microevolution (evolution below the level of species) is observed.
Speciation is macroevolution, by definition. The new species loses the ability to breed with the old species and gains the ability to breed with the new species. Other abilities may be lost or gained. There is no requirement that macroevolution never involves a loss of function. You are adding a new and unscientific requirement to try, unsuccessfully, to bolster your claim that macroevolution does not happen.
Completely irrelevant to whether or not macroevolution happens. It does happen. We have observations of it happening. Your absurd denial of observed facts is not doing you any favours. Does COVID-19 have “new and novel features”? Seems like it to me.
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gama232
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The following is from Catholic Answers.
In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” ( Humani Generis 37).
The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).
Adam and Eve: Real People
It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” ( Humani Generis 37).
The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).
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Allyson
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You do not know my heart and mind. You are a stranger on the internet. LOL. Although it would be ironic if we actually knew eachother.
I am trying to do the opposite of what you just described. I am using faith and reason together. You are not.
Sadly Fr. Coyne is now deceased this past month, but he was trained in theology and science.
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Allyson
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I do not dispute this. Stop assuming that I do.
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gama232
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You are playing a game. You have distorted Church teaching. You don’t accept it.
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rossum
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There is no scientific problem with this. All “true men” on earth descended from Adam and Eve. Living alongside those true men were “untrue men” who bred among themselves and did not descend from Adam and Eve. The two types of men, true and untrue, were biologically compatible with compatible DNA. Hence any mating between a true man and an untrue man would be fertile and produce offspring descended from both Adam and Eve through one parent. Those offspring would also be true men with the correct descent from the first couple.
That scenario conforms to HG and to biology.
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gama232
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That represents false thinking. It represents wish fulfillment. The Catholic Church rejects this.
It conforms to nothing credible.
It conforms to nothing credible.
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buffalo
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Got it. The first thing of note. MtDNA who they have thought is only passed by the mother is wrong. Fathers can pass it too.
Can you dig out the specific reference to Adam and Eve in that book?
Y Adam is most likely Noah (or his sons)
MtDNA Eve is the mother of all living.
Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time
Studies re-date ‘Y-chromosome Adam’ and ‘mitochondrial Eve’. Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time | NatureWhich makes sense. Eve was the ancestor of Noah.
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buffalo
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Are there men walking among us without original sin? Are there men among us that do not possess an immortal soul?
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rossum
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No. Either M-Eve of Y-Adam were ‘true men’, descendants of the original Adam and Eve. All living humans are true men, as HG says.
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EndTimes
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SKIPPING AHEAD TO THE GOSPELS / NEW TESTAMENT
[Luke 3:38]
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam , the son of God.
[Romans 5:12]
[ Death Through Adam , Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
[Romans 5:14]
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam , who is a pattern of the one to come.
[1 Corinthians 15:22]
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
[1 Corinthians 15:45]
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam , a life-giving spirit.
[1 Timothy 2:13]
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
[1 Timothy 2:14]
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
[Jude 1:14]
Enoch, the seventh from Adam , prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
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gama232
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Souls are not transmitted by birth. That is fiction.
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rossum
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My scenario conforms to Humani Generis. Are you saying that HG is “false thinking”?
If not, then please show where my scenario differs from HG. I know my scenario differs from your personal opinion, but you need to show where it is in conflict with Humani Generis.
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gama232
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Catholic Answers affirms a literal Adam and Eve. My opinion doesn’t matter.
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Dovekin
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Yes, I understand why you are asking this. I am pointing out that the “first principles of sufficient and proportionate reasons“ as you present them are merely possible and not factual.
This is like the recognition that the world has a non-Euclidian geometry. In almost every circumstance, Euclidean geometry works, but longitudinal lines are all perpendicular to the Equator and intersect at the poles. That is a violation of Euclid.
I encourage you and everyone to call out those who elevate the merely possible to be factual.
Science is provisional, yes, and it is possible that ID is right as science. My problem is theological, it assumes that God, or some other unpredictable nonnatural force, intervened in nature. It may be true, but it violates science in a way that makes it useless. It is possible, not factual, while I prefer to limit science to “facts.”
Macro-evolution is also possible, but not factual. It is a consequence of theorizing based on facts. As I said much earlier, ID is based on theorizing on facts+ nonscientific facts. It might be right, but it is less useful for theologians and philosophers than something based on science alone.
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Allyson
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That was a predictable response.
Still not so, no matter how many time you scream it into the void.
What do you mean? So that I can pick the pages that best align to your question.
There was no global flood, so postulating such connections is useless.
I am not sure what this has to do with the smallest bottleneck.
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Allyson
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That is the equivalent of saying, “I do not think for myself.”
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