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De_Maria
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Lol! You can argue either position, from Scripture?
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lanman87
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I can supply the proof text that both spout as “proof” of their position. I haven’t went deep enough into the context of each “text” to make a formative opinion. But I know enough that if someone spouts scripture A I can hit them back with Scripture B and vice-versa.
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lanman87
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De_Maria
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Do you consider this a good thing?De_Maria:
I can supply the proof text that both spout as “proof” of their position. I haven’t went deep enough into the context of each “text” to make a formative opinion. But I know enough that if someone spouts scripture A I can hit them back with Scripture B and vice-versa.
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lagerald24
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Interesting article but it appears, at least to me, that the author is one of the Calvinist types who takes a more moderate view of things like the WCF and the 5 points, sort of like Norman Geisler or something. Just what I noticed. Thanks for sending the article!
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C.Longinus
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And in light of the fact that people resist the Holy Spirit, that in itself disproves your point.
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lanman87
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Haven’t thought of it one way or the other. I don’t consider OSAS to be something that keeps someone from being “in Christ” in either direction so it just hasn’t been that big of a deal to me.
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De_Maria
Guest
So, you’ve never run across someone who believes that they are free to sin because they are absolutely assured of salvation?De_Maria:
Haven’t thought of it one way or the other. I don’t consider OSAS to be something that keeps someone from being “in Christ” in either direction so it just hasn’t been that big of a deal to me.
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lanman87
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No. And I was raised Southern Baptist which is one of the biggest OSAS groups there is, except it is called Security of the Believer. Southern Baptist are very serious about avoiding sin.
As a matter of fact, I heard countless sermons on how we are not free to sin if we are “Born again”.
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lanman87
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Here is an example of Southern Baptist teaching. Does this sound like you are free to sin because you are assured of salvation?
Day 1: Pure Thoughts and Attitudes
Scriptures: Psalm 139:23-24, Proverbs 23:7a, Matthew 22:37, Matthew 6:33, Matthew 5:28, Psalm 19:14, 2 Corinthians 10:5 and 1 Peter 5:5b.
Prayerfully work through the following reflective questions. Fully confess and forsake whatever God brings to mind. Trust God to fill and empower you with His Spirit. After each of the following questions, pause and allow God to speak.
Questions for reflection: (a) Do I tend to think more about worldly things than spiritual? ___ (b) Does the focus of my thoughts often indicate a lack of first love passion for Jesus? ___ (c) Do I spend more time on hobbies, sports or recreation than God’s Word and prayer? ___ (d) Do I have any patterns of unclean or lustful thoughts? ___ (e) Have I opened the door to impurity by anything I view online or in other media? ___ (f) Do I frequently have thoughts that are envious or jealous? ___ (g) Am I overly competitive and self-exalting? ___ (h) Am I interested in serving God only if I can have a preeminent role? ___ (i) Am I determined to get my way? ___ (j) Am I overly interested in being noticed? ___ (k) Do I often have thoughts that are angry or resentful? ___ (l) Am I frequently dominated by thoughts of doubt instead of trust? ___ (m) Do I consistently harbor thoughts of bitterness and unforgiveness? ___
Do I frequently brood about harsh things I would like to say to certain people or groups? ___
Confess and forsake whatever God has revealed. Surrender your thoughts and yield them to Jesus. Remember, you are fully accepted and forgiven in Christ. Believe Christ to live through you by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:11).
For prayer and repentance, go back and review the issues God revealed for repentance. Resolve now to put off all sinful thoughts and put on Christ by faith. Be very specific in what you confess and forsake. Place strong focus on identifying the specific righteous thoughts that will replace those that are wrong. List some of your key points for change.
Pause in prayer and trust Jesus to empower you with the Holy Spirit. Believe Him to fill you with His thoughts. Trust God for the fullness of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13).
Here is a link to the full five day repentance and prayer guide. Southern Baptist will send things like this out to its members from time to time to call them to repentance.
Day 1: Pure Thoughts and Attitudes
Scriptures: Psalm 139:23-24, Proverbs 23:7a, Matthew 22:37, Matthew 6:33, Matthew 5:28, Psalm 19:14, 2 Corinthians 10:5 and 1 Peter 5:5b.
Prayerfully work through the following reflective questions. Fully confess and forsake whatever God brings to mind. Trust God to fill and empower you with His Spirit. After each of the following questions, pause and allow God to speak.
Questions for reflection: (a) Do I tend to think more about worldly things than spiritual? ___ (b) Does the focus of my thoughts often indicate a lack of first love passion for Jesus? ___ (c) Do I spend more time on hobbies, sports or recreation than God’s Word and prayer? ___ (d) Do I have any patterns of unclean or lustful thoughts? ___ (e) Have I opened the door to impurity by anything I view online or in other media? ___ (f) Do I frequently have thoughts that are envious or jealous? ___ (g) Am I overly competitive and self-exalting? ___ (h) Am I interested in serving God only if I can have a preeminent role? ___ (i) Am I determined to get my way? ___ (j) Am I overly interested in being noticed? ___ (k) Do I often have thoughts that are angry or resentful? ___ (l) Am I frequently dominated by thoughts of doubt instead of trust? ___ (m) Do I consistently harbor thoughts of bitterness and unforgiveness? ___
Do I frequently brood about harsh things I would like to say to certain people or groups? ___Confess and forsake whatever God has revealed. Surrender your thoughts and yield them to Jesus. Remember, you are fully accepted and forgiven in Christ. Believe Christ to live through you by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:11).
For prayer and repentance, go back and review the issues God revealed for repentance. Resolve now to put off all sinful thoughts and put on Christ by faith. Be very specific in what you confess and forsake. Place strong focus on identifying the specific righteous thoughts that will replace those that are wrong. List some of your key points for change.
Pause in prayer and trust Jesus to empower you with the Holy Spirit. Believe Him to fill you with His thoughts. Trust God for the fullness of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13).
Here is a link to the full five day repentance and prayer guide. Southern Baptist will send things like this out to its members from time to time to call them to repentance.
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Cathoholic
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I didn’t say or imply that.
If these guys have God as their Father (and Jesus explicitly stated they DID) . . .
. . . but a situation can still arise where they are NOT forgiven of their sins (i.e. not forgiving others that Jesus also EXPLICITLY stated) . . .
. . . OSAS is a contradiction to the Biblical message.
And OSAS IS a contradiction to the Scriptures.
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Cathoholic
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De_Maria . . .
I saw a guy bragging about it in the newspaper (USA Today) years ago.
He dumped his wife and kids, “married” a new girlfriend and said he knew he was “forgiven” due to his tradition of OSAS (although he didn’t state it that way but pretty close).
Yep.
I saw a guy bragging about it in the newspaper (USA Today) years ago.
He dumped his wife and kids, “married” a new girlfriend and said he knew he was “forgiven” due to his tradition of OSAS (although he didn’t state it that way but pretty close).
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lanman87
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All I can tell you is that in my experience the Southern Baptist churches I have attended all teach to live a holy life and and life of repentance and confession. If someone who attended a Southern Baptist church said such a thing then they are going against the teaching of their church.
Also, there may be some fringe group out there somewhere who teaches something similar in what you are saying. It is a big world and we have the freedom to teach whatever we want.
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Cathoholic
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Ianman87 . . .
Yet he made no effort to reform his life regarding that utter betrayal of his wife and own children. (If I recall correctly the guy was a famous country singer.)
At one of the other Baptist churches in our area (not mine at the time), the minister was a homosexual (presumably bisexual as he had a wife and kids) child molester too. He frequently talked to kids about how he was saved.
One day out of the blue him and his family were gone!
I had a heckava time finding out what happened until two weeks later one of my friends who went there explained to me what happened and how he wasn’t supposed to tell anyone and how nobody else is supposed to know.
Another guy with “assurance” who insisted his “works” didn’t figure in to his justification.
The point is, rotten theology has real-life consequences.
Yeah. This guy said he was “forgiven” (which implicitly suggests he KNEW he was in serious sin. Don’t deceive yourselves. No adulterer will enter the Kingdom of Heaven c.f 1 Cor. 6:9).
Yet he made no effort to reform his life regarding that utter betrayal of his wife and own children. (If I recall correctly the guy was a famous country singer.)
At one of the other Baptist churches in our area (not mine at the time), the minister was a homosexual (presumably bisexual as he had a wife and kids) child molester too. He frequently talked to kids about how he was saved.
One day out of the blue him and his family were gone!
I had a heckava time finding out what happened until two weeks later one of my friends who went there explained to me what happened and how he wasn’t supposed to tell anyone and how nobody else is supposed to know.
Another guy with “assurance” who insisted his “works” didn’t figure in to his justification.
The point is, rotten theology has real-life consequences.
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Cathoholic
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No. This is not “fringe” items.
Look at the frequency of people who ditch their spouses and children.
They have to rationalize that somehow.
Catholics do this too. But if they are honest and carefully check, they will find they are TRANSGRESSING Catholic teachings.
Not asserting them as in the “Once Saved, Always Saved” tradition, or a definition of sola fide that ignores works in the scheme of salvation.
It is mainstream alright.
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Cathoholic
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Ianman87 . . . .
But did you HAVE TO?
We both know the answer to THAT question too.
Those guys are still saved (just “backsliding”), or . . . "Well they must not have REALLY been saved in the first place after all. Despite everyone including themselves THINKING they were saved. The “True scotsman fallacy” incorporated into home made religion. So much for “assurance”.)
Me too.
But did you HAVE TO?
We both know the answer to THAT question too.
Those guys are still saved (just “backsliding”), or . . . "Well they must not have REALLY been saved in the first place after all. Despite everyone including themselves THINKING they were saved. The “True scotsman fallacy” incorporated into home made religion. So much for “assurance”.)
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TULIPed
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I think USA Today was where they had the story of the guy who saw Jesus in the grilled cheese too. It is after all what Pulitzer had in mind when he invented his prize.
Obviously, I jest.
But seriously folks, for the love of grilled cheese, please just have a look at some source material - at least if you’re referring to Reformed theology. From the 2nd Helvetic Confession:
“WHAT IN THIS MATTER IS TO BE CONDEMNED. Therefore we do not approve of the impious speeches of some who say, “Few are chosen, and since I do not know whether I am among the number of the few, I will enjoy myself.” Others say, “If I am predestinated and elected by God, nothing can hinder me from salvation, which is already certainly appointed for me, no matter what I do. But if I am in the number of the reprobate, no faith or repentance will help me, since the decree of God cannot be changed. Therefore all doctrines and admonitions are useless.” Now the saying of the apostle contradicts these men: “The Lord’s servant must be ready to teach, instructing those who oppose him, so that if God should grant that they repent to know the truth, they may recover from the snare of the devil, after being held captive by him to do his will” (II Tim. 2:23 ff.).
ADMONITIONS ARE NOT IN VAIN BECAUSE SALVATION PROCEEDS FROM ELECTION. Augustine also shows that both the grace of free election and the predestination, and also salutary admonitions and doctrines, are to be preached ( Lib. de Dono Perseverantiae, cap. 14 ff.).”
Look - even St. Augustine gets a shout out. And this, from the Westminster:
“The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,so that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
My emphasis added. There’s a lot more where that came from. If you want to really know what Reformed Christians believe - or should believe - have a look at their confessions (and USA Today).
Obviously, I jest.
But seriously folks, for the love of grilled cheese, please just have a look at some source material - at least if you’re referring to Reformed theology. From the 2nd Helvetic Confession:
“WHAT IN THIS MATTER IS TO BE CONDEMNED. Therefore we do not approve of the impious speeches of some who say, “Few are chosen, and since I do not know whether I am among the number of the few, I will enjoy myself.” Others say, “If I am predestinated and elected by God, nothing can hinder me from salvation, which is already certainly appointed for me, no matter what I do. But if I am in the number of the reprobate, no faith or repentance will help me, since the decree of God cannot be changed. Therefore all doctrines and admonitions are useless.” Now the saying of the apostle contradicts these men: “The Lord’s servant must be ready to teach, instructing those who oppose him, so that if God should grant that they repent to know the truth, they may recover from the snare of the devil, after being held captive by him to do his will” (II Tim. 2:23 ff.).
ADMONITIONS ARE NOT IN VAIN BECAUSE SALVATION PROCEEDS FROM ELECTION. Augustine also shows that both the grace of free election and the predestination, and also salutary admonitions and doctrines, are to be preached ( Lib. de Dono Perseverantiae, cap. 14 ff.).”
Look - even St. Augustine gets a shout out. And this, from the Westminster:
“The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,so that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
My emphasis added. There’s a lot more where that came from. If you want to really know what Reformed Christians believe - or should believe - have a look at their confessions (and USA Today).
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Cathoholic
Guest
You are confusing “the elect” with people who were/are “born again”.
All “the elect” go to Heaven. And their free will was totally preserved in this life (salvation is not a Divine puppet show - I know YOU don’t think it is. But there may be lurkers here who do think that way).
All “born again” people have their free will preserved too. But if they “do not persevere till the end” they will not be saved.
And thus by definition are not among “the elect”.
TULIPed . . . .
If you want to really know what Reformed Christians believe I should ask them. And I have. And when we get around to the confessions or the “Reformers” I promptly get told those people have no authority in their lives.
I would say . . . .
But that is NOT the case for Catholics and Catholic authority (and for that matter the Gospel).
All “the elect” go to Heaven. And their free will was totally preserved in this life (salvation is not a Divine puppet show - I know YOU don’t think it is. But there may be lurkers here who do think that way).
All “born again” people have their free will preserved too. But if they “do not persevere till the end” they will not be saved.
And thus by definition are not among “the elect”.
TULIPed . . . .
No.
If you want to really know what Reformed Christians believe I should ask them. And I have. And when we get around to the confessions or the “Reformers” I promptly get told those people have no authority in their lives.
I would say . . . .
And for a Protestant to REJECT Protestant “authority” is consistent with Protestantisms.
But that is NOT the case for Catholics and Catholic authority (and for that matter the Gospel).
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TULIPed
Guest
We’ll have to agree to disagree I’m afraid. And with that agreement, I’m off to bed. Good night all.
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Cathoholic
Guest
Well for tomorrow . . .
Do they HAVE TO accept Protestant authoity?
Does it figure in to their salvation in certain instances?
Did the “Reformers” HAVE TO accept their Catholic Bishops authority? At least in certain areas?
Do they HAVE TO accept Protestant authoity?
Does it figure in to their salvation in certain instances?
Did the “Reformers” HAVE TO accept their Catholic Bishops authority? At least in certain areas?
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