Reconciling Romans 2:13 with the rest of New Testament

[lanman87]

Catholics do this too. But if they are honest and carefully check, they will find they are TRANSGRESSING Catholic teachings.

And Southern Baptist who do this are transgressing Southern Baptist teaching.

Sin is not a Baptist problem or a Catholic Problem. It is a human problem. I watched a group of Catholics get drunk three nights in a row a couple of weeks ago. I was told something today about the Monks in a Monastery that is near my fathers house that would make you cringe. This was something told by someone who worked for the Monastery and was a witness.

We are all in the need of God’s grace and forgiveness.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . .

Sin is not a Baptist problem or a Catholic Problem.

Hold it!

I never said or implied sin is a Catholic or Protestant phenomenon exclusively.

You know that.

I went out of my way to say Catholic Christians ditch their wives and kids too.

Here it is again . . .

Catholics do this too. But if they are honest and carefully check, they will find they are TRANSGRESSING Catholic teachings.

Not asserting them as in the “Once Saved, Always Saved” tradition, or a definition of sola fide that ignores works in the scheme of salvation.

But when they do, they will find no solace in our official Church Teachings regarding their sin outside of repentance.

But when a Protestant does the same, his/her theology may tell them they are justified by faith ALONE and that WORKS don’t figure in to their equation of justification.

They don’t HAVE TO work.

And I asked you the same thing Ianman. And so far you have not given me a straight up answer on this.

 

[Justin_Mary]

No adulterer will enter the Kingdom of Heaven c.f 1 Cor. 6:9).

I’m almost positive King David is there now.

 

[Cathoholic]

Justin_Mary . . .

I’m almost positive King David is there now.

I think your issue is with St. Paul. Not me.

1st CORINTHIANS 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I have included (above) the path of repentance for those repented, ex-adulterers.

So does St. Paul. (In this case St. Paul talks about the cleansing effects of Baptism too.)

King David does not fit that unrepentant paradigm.

And even then he had an account to pay.

Because of his adultry, his first born son to Bathsheba had died as prophesied would occur as punishment.

 

[lanman87]

But when they do, they will find no solace in our official Church Teachings regarding their sin outside of repentance.

But when a Protestant does the same, his/her theology may tell them they are justified by faith ALONE and that WORKS don’t figure in to their equation of justification.

They don’t HAVE TO work.

And I asked you the same thing Ianman. And so far you have not given me a straight up answer on this.

Well, my church “removed fellowship” or excommunicated someone who had an affair and refused to repent. After several attempts by the elders to bring him to repentance his affair was made public and we were told to treat him “as a tax collector” and we removed him from among our assembly and turned him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

He will have to answer to God, as will all those both Catholic and Evangelical we are talking about. God sees their heart and sees their actions and will deal with them as He sees fit.

My point was even your “good” theology isn’t keeping people from doing horrible things. It isn’t the theologies fault it is the sinfulness of mankind.

For every story of a Baptist preacher or church member going off the rails and falling into sin I can give you dozens of examples of faithful men and women who serve Christ faithfully and humbly. I’m sure you could do the same for every story of a Catholic Priest or layperson who goes off the rails and falls into sin.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

Well, my church “removed fellowship” or excommunicated someone who had an affair . . .

Yes but so what?

Do they teach because of his evil works he will not attain unto Eternal Life (unless he repents)?

Or did they still teach justification by faith alone?

.

He will have to answer to God . . .

Yes. And so will people who refuse faith.

But that doesn’t stop Baptists from preaching the NEED for faith does it?

There is more going on here than you are admitting to yourself Ian.

Works in the Spirit of God, are a NECESSARY part of the PROCESS (not “moment”) of salvation.

We were taugh against this from the cradle in the various baptist traditions Ianman.

And because it is unBiblical, our Baptist preachers had to keep driving home these partial truths virtually week in and week out.

Lots of memorization of Ephesisns 2:8-9, but not much on the parable of the sheep and goats.

I know what happens there. The truths are great. But the truths are also partial.

Justification by faith ALONE is a partial truth.

It is a tradition of men, that makes void the commandments of God. And we have been forewarned of these traditions of lawless men multiple times over.

 

[lanman87]

Or did they still teach justification by faith alone?

We still teach faith alone.

The future will tell us one of two things.

Either this man was lying about his faith and was good at faking Christianity or he was a Christian and will one day come under such discipline and misery from his sin that he will repent.

6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth 1 John 1:6

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him 1 John 2:4

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God 1 John 3:9

If this man keeps on sinning and doesn’t repent then that means he hasn’t seen him or known him. He hasn’t been born of God.

So the Bible tells us that if someone keeps on sinning it means they never really knew Christ. Somehow, if you have been born of God you can’t go on sinning. I don’t know how it works but that is what the Bible says. And it doesn’t just say it once, it says it twice.

Do you think it is possible to have been born of God and “keep on sinning”?

Note, this isn’t talking about an isolated sin, it is talking about a willful repeated sin that isn’t repented from.

It is amazing that if I stop speculating and go to God’s word I find the answer.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . .

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him 1 John 2:4

But I am not asking about people who say they now know him but commit mortal sin (the term St. John uses).

I am talking about the guy who had faith to proverbially move mountains.

I am talking about the guy who was in the Vine (Jesus).

I am talking abiut the guy who Jesus said, has God as their FATHER!

I am talking about how the truth WAS in them not “is” in them.

Big “Christian guys” like Joshua Harris who once helped people come to Bible Christianity via discussions on dating and Christ, who now deny Christ and show up at homosexual gatherings.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Joshua Harris, center, at a homosexual ‘pride’ parade.screenshot / twitter.com/treypearson

NEWS FAITH, HOMOSEXUALITY Tue Aug 6, 2019

'I Kissed Dating Goodbye' author who renounced Christianity appears at LGBT 'pride' parade - LifeSite

Are good works/obedience an optional item for them regarding their salvation?

This is not a trick question Ianman87.

It is amazing that if I stop speculating and go to God’s word I find the answer.

I’m sorry but your examples are only partially relevant. You need to look at and accept ALL of “God’s word”. Not just selective snippets that fit in your tradition but reject other aspects that do not.

 

[Cathoholic]

Mortal sin = kills the life of grace in you. (Separates you from the Vine or the life of intimate grace with Christ Jesus.)

Venial sin (“sin which is not mortal”) = sin that is still bad (all sin is bad) but does not kill the life of grace in the Christian. It does WOUND the life of grace.

1st JOHN 5:16-17 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.
There is sin which is mortal;
I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

The reason they do not pray for that (“for that” in the sense of rectifying it. Not “for” in the sense of to “obtain” mortal sin. That would be non-sense.) is because in mortal sin they are a spiritual corpse.

They need to repent of their sin first.

Then they may get back into a state of grace (intimate friendship with God) and carry out the life of prayer to its fullest (or at least a fuller) efficacy again.

 

[lanman87]

I am talking about the guy who had faith to proverbially move mountains.

I am talking about the guy who was in the Vine (Jesus).

I am talking abiut the guy who Jesus said, has God as their FATHER!

According to 1 John that person who appeared to be “In the Vine” was never actually in “the Vine”.

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6

Keeps on sinning is talking about ongoing unrepentant sin or a lifestyle of sin. If someone claims to have faith and even exhibits apparent fruit of faith but then fall into sin and “Keep on sinning”, that is they don’t repent and turn back to God. Then John says that person has not seen him or known him. They haven’t been Born Again, they haven’t been regenerated, they haven’t been justified because they have not truly known Christ.

John doesn’t say that they once knew him and now they don’t. He says the never seen him or knew him. He isn’t saying a “Mortal Sin” killed his relationship with Christ. He said that someone who “keeps on sinning” has never known Christ in the first place. And that “No one who abides in him keeps on sinning”.

Unregenerated people can be very religious. The can have a form of godliness. They can even do great works and not know Christ. Matthew 7:21-23

So according to the Word of God. If this Joshua Harris guy doesn’t fall under the discipline of God and repent then it means “he never knew God”.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . .

According to 1 John that person who appeared to be “In the Vine” was never actually in “the Vine”.

Even if true, it is irrelevant.

Why?

Because there ARE people who were never in the Vine. I affirm that fact.

But it is fallacious to pretend . . . that means NOBODY who left the Vine was never REALLY in the Vine (Jesus) in the first place.

It is wrong to assert people who Jesus EXPLICITLY says have God as their Father, to contradict Jesus and assert they never had God as their Father.

It is anti-Biblical to insist that people who had faith to proverbially move mountains, did not have a real faith to begin with.

It goes against St. John (whom you cite) to deny mortal sin. A sin that mortally wounds your relationship with Christ. You cannot “kill” a relationship that NEVER had LIFE.

This is why I say, you are embracing a truncated partial Gospel concerning justification.

Look I give thanks for the truths you have.

But I also deeply lament you rejecting these verses that are basically explicitly “staring you” in the face and you tossing them aside to embrace a tradition of men.

 

[TULIPed]

ut when a Protestant does the same, his/her theology may tell them they are justified by faith ALONE and that WORKS don’t figure in to their equation of justification.

They don’t HAVE TO work.

Let’s go at this another way. Are Protestants capable of good works (some even at the expense of their careers and lives - just like Catholics, God bless them all), e.g. Wilberforce, Liddell, Bonhoeffer, https://water.cc, etc. etc.) ? For example - do they:

Go to church on Sunday regularly?
Tithe? Or even reverse tithe (https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-a-reverse-tithe)
Feed the poor?
Visit the sick and those in prison?
Love their neighbor as themselves?
Pray for those who persecute them?
Etc. Etc.

They’re all “OSAS” people after all (a phrase that as a Reformed Protestant I never heard once growing up. In fact, the only people I’ve ever talked to who use the phrase are Catholic friends who ask me about it). Why not “sin so that grace might abound”?

What do you think motivates a Protestant to do good works if they think good works are meaningless?

 

[lanman87]

But it is fallacious to pretend . . . that means NOBODY who left the Vine was never REALLY in the Vine (Jesus) in the first place.

How can you tell the difference between those who were in the Vine and left and those who were never in the vine, but did great works in the name of Christ never knew Christ? From our human perspective they were both strong Christians.

 

[C.Longinus]

How can you tell the difference between those who were in the Vine and left and those who were never in the vine, but did great works in the name of Christ never knew Christ? From our human perspective they were both strong Christians.

Christ can, and he said as much:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word I have spoken unto you. Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it remains in the vine; so neither can you, unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit: for away from me you can do nothing. If a man does not remain in me, he is thrown away as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, ask whatsoever you will, and it shall be done unto you” (John 15:1-7)

 

[De_Maria]

No. And I was raised Southern Baptist which is one of the biggest OSAS groups there is, except it is called Security of the Believer. Southern Baptist are very serious about avoiding sin.

As a matter of fact, I heard countless sermons on how we are not free to sin if we are “Born again”.

I’m glad to hear that.

Southern Baptist will send things like this out to its members from time to time to call them to repentance.

That’s very good.

Although you haven’t run across any, I have.

Of course, I’ve also met Catholics who think the Sacrament of Confession gives them license to sin because all they have to do is go and have their sins washed off.

And it is very difficult to understand people who think that they are free to sin after they have come to Christ. But as someone said, sin is a people problem. We’re all born with a fallen nature.

 

[De_Maria]

Yeah, I’ve met several also. And, I’ve met more who say that Jesus died for their sins, past, present and future. There’s a difference between the two, in that these don’t feel the need to commit sins in order for grace to abound, but they don’t feel the need to repent of any sins, because of what they call Jesus’ completed work upon the Cross.

It’s all rather astounding to me. But, as I said to someone else, I’ve also met Catholics who think they have a license to sin because of the Sacrament of Confession. So, it’s not a Protestant only problem.

 

[C.Longinus]

I was talking about @lanman87

 

[Justin_Mary]

Let’s go at this another way. Are Protestants capable of good works (some even at the expense of their careers and lives - just like Catholics, God bless them all), e.g. Wilberforce, Liddell, Bonhoeffer, https://water.cc , etc. etc.) ? For example - do they:

Go to church on Sunday regularly?
Tithe? Or even reverse tithe (https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-a-reverse-tithe)
Feed the poor?
Visit the sick and those in prison?
Love their neighbor as themselves?
Pray for those who persecute them

I’m wrestling with this question myself, so please don’t take offense. But I think it may be a form of spiritual pride. I think many a Catholic/Orthodox fall under the same sin… even myself.

If all I do I do so that I’ll be right with God & not because I love God more than myself, my mother, my wife, etc… then I can see Jesus saying to me, “Begone from me. I never knew you.”

I can tell myself (& have) that I do what I do for the love of God, but when I reflect on it I usually find a benefit for love of myself that spurred said action.

 

[De_Maria]

What do you think motivates a Protestant to do good works if they think good works are meaningless?

I have frequently asked that question of Protestants. The most common answers are:

1. Love of God.
2. Not salvation, we’re already saved.
3. people who work with an eye towards obtaining salvation, condemn themselves to hell.

The only one I like is “love of God.” That’s why we do good works, also. Because we want to be united to God, we therefore do good works because we believe they are necessary for salvation.

Now, are you one of those who say that good works condemn the man doing them? I know this is a true Protestant position, because the Coiuncil of Trent specifically condemns that teaching:

COUNCIL OF TRENT VI, CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.

 

[TULIPed]

I’m wrestling with this question myself, so please don’t take offense.

None taken at all.

I can tell myself (& have) that I do what I do for the love of God, but when I reflect on it I usually find a benefit for love of myself that spurred said action.

This is a great comment. The enemy is always at the doorstep - like a hungry lion - and pride seems to be his weapon of choice many times.